BoxRec

He's the best heavyweight already? Based on?

Just subjectively. On merit yes hes just top 30.

Ok, but why do you think he's the best heavyweight already?

Massive puncher, right size, he gives his opponents that same fear that Tyson did to his opponents, His style has all the good bit that Lennox had with that pawing style and long reach, plus I don't see other heavyweights that are likely to trouble Wladimir other than Wilder and Wilder is probably fragile and AJ (IMO) beats everyone. I think all he can learn from fights is more confidence, he can learn from sparring ofcourse.

Lennox wrote:Just subjectively. On merit yes hes just top 30.

That's a very tough call when looking at the size of the opponents his knocking over. People seem to love to underestimate the skill of Wladimir the longer he fights on.

There's still far too many questions for me to think that he's already the best HW in the world. His chin hasn't been tested, we haven't seen how his stamina will fair after several rounds, and he hasn't had a top opponent take the fight to him so I'm not sure how good his defense will be at the highest levels either. Moreover, several of his opponents have been undersized and he seems stiff to me, not moving anywhere near as fluidly as someone like Wlad does.

On the more positive side he's a legit SHW, he's got good though I doubt massive power, a nice variety of punches that he puts together well, and time is on his side. He's performed very well so far, I think he's definitely the best prospect in the HW division, and he oozes potential, but there is no way that I can say that he's already the best fighter in the division. I'm not sure that the Sky/MR hype machine are even saying that yet.

The bigger ones will be even slower. AJ is very fast. I can't think of a heavyweight other than Wladimir and Wilder who could beat him.
Povetkin would be stopped in about 4 or 5, Pulev pretty much the same, Takam is more of a slick boxer but he is a bit limited, the upcoming Povetkin fight is 50-50....you need to convince me there is someone. Mike Perez could have been he is the wasted talent.

Lennox wrote:The bigger ones will be even slower. AJ is very fast. I can't think of a heavyweight other than Wladimir and Wilder who could beat him.
Povetkin would be stopped in about 4 or 5, Pulev pretty much the same, Takam is more of a slick boxer but he is a bit limited, the upcoming Povetkin fight is 50-50....you need to convince me there is someone. Mike Perez could have been he is the wasted talent.

Surely you cant say he's the best though then? Wladimir should still be the best.

Lennox wrote:The bigger ones will be even slower. AJ is very fast. I can't think of a heavyweight other than Wladimir and Wilder who could beat him.
Povetkin would be stopped in about 4 or 5, Pulev pretty much the same, Takam is more of a slick boxer but he is a bit limited, the upcoming Povetkin fight is 50-50....you need to convince me there is someone. Mike Perez could have been he is the wasted talent.

Dont see Pulev being stopped in 5. The guy has always looked like he's had a solid chin and he wouldnt be an easy guy for Joshua to tee off on.

Lennox wrote:The bigger ones will be even slower. AJ is very fast. I can't think of a heavyweight other than Wladimir and Wilder who could beat him.
Povetkin would be stopped in about 4 or 5, Pulev pretty much the same, Takam is more of a slick boxer but he is a bit limited, the upcoming Povetkin fight is 50-50....you need to convince me there is someone. Mike Perez could have been he is the wasted talent.

I don't need to convince you of anything and I can just as easily say 'Joshua would lose to Pulev and Takam', and even if he beat them it wouldn't make him the best in the world.

I doubt that many of the bigger ones at the top will be slower than Airich and Bakhtov, his best opponents, but they will probably be more skilled and have an easier time reaching Joshua, which can be hard when you're giving up 5-7 inches and are limited like Airch and Bakhtov are. Joshua isn't slow but I don't think he's close to being 'very fast', and all those questions I raised in the previous post have yet to be answered.

crusader wrote:

Lennox wrote:The bigger ones will be even slower. AJ is very fast. I can't think of a heavyweight other than Wladimir and Wilder who could beat him.
Povetkin would be stopped in about 4 or 5, Pulev pretty much the same, Takam is more of a slick boxer but he is a bit limited, the upcoming Povetkin fight is 50-50....you need to convince me there is someone. Mike Perez could have been he is the wasted talent.

I don't need to convince you of anything and I can just as easily say 'Joshua would lose to Pulev and Takam', and even if he beat them it wouldn't make him the best in the world.

I doubt that many of the bigger ones at the top will be slower than Airich and Bakhtov, his best opponents, but they will probably be more skilled and have an easier time reaching Joshua, which can be hard when you're giving up 5-7 inches and are limited like Airch and Bakhtov are. Joshua isn't slow but I don't think he's close to being 'very fast', and all those questions I raised in the previous post have yet to be answered.

You seem to be of the same opinion of me when in comes to his 'stiffness'.

The stiffness is very clear to me and it seems to be fairly common in fighters who had a relatively late start to the game and those who are very heavily muscled. How much it impacts him and whether he can improve it is not so clear.

crusader wrote:The stiffness is very clear to me and it seems to be fairly common in fighters who had a relatively late start to the game. How much it impacts him and whether he can improve it is another matter.

Do you notice it in Scott Quigg aswell who had a similar late start? He's another that stands out to me in that department..... Saying that though, Tony Thompson had a late start to the game and whilst I know he's not as talented, I dont see the same kind of stiffness in his style. Bit ungainly but not stiff per se.

It's just an opinion I think he would beat Wlad that's obviously his toughest fight. Wilder could beat Wlad but I see that 60-40 for Wlad. Ortiz is the one I don't know much about. Against other heavyweights I am pretty certain in my mind he wins them. No point in arguing with an opinion, over the next couple of fights my or your opinions will have to change.

crusader wrote:There's still far too many questions for me to think that he's already the best HW in the world. His chin hasn't been tested, we haven't seen how his stamina will fair after several rounds, and he hasn't had a top opponent take the fight to him so I'm not sure how good his defense will be at the highest levels either. Moreover, several of his opponents have been undersized and he seems stiff to me, not moving anywhere near as fluidly as someone like Wlad does.

On the more positive side he's a legit SHW, he's got good though I doubt massive power, a nice variety of punches that he puts together well, and time is on his side. He's performed very well so far, I think he's definitely the best prospect in the HW division, and he oozes potential, but there is no way that I can say that he's already the best fighter in the division. I'm not sure that the Sky/MR hype machine are even saying that yet.

To be fair, he was not afraid to take shots from Bakhtov, so his chin is most likely at least decent.

ikorolev wrote:

crusader wrote:There's still far too many questions for me to think that he's already the best HW in the world. His chin hasn't been tested, we haven't seen how his stamina will fair after several rounds, and he hasn't had a top opponent take the fight to him so I'm not sure how good his defense will be at the highest levels either. Moreover, several of his opponents have been undersized and he seems stiff to me, not moving anywhere near as fluidly as someone like Wlad does.

On the more positive side he's a legit SHW, he's got good though I doubt massive power, a nice variety of punches that he puts together well, and time is on his side. He's performed very well so far, I think he's definitely the best prospect in the HW division, and he oozes potential, but there is no way that I can say that he's already the best fighter in the division. I'm not sure that the Sky/MR hype machine are even saying that yet.

To be fair, he was not afraid to take shots from Bakhtov, so his chin is most likely at least decent.

Bakhtov looked too undersized to ever really put a dent in Joshua though. Bakhtov looks like a decent puncher but that is most likely against similar sized heavyweights. Not against the super heavyweights like Joshua, Klitschko and co.

lefty wrote:

crusader wrote:The stiffness is very clear to me and it seems to be fairly common in fighters who had a relatively late start to the game. How much it impacts him and whether he can improve it is another matter.

Do you notice it in Scott Quigg aswell who had a similar late start? He's another that stands out to me in that department..... Saying that though, Tony Thompson had a late start to the game and whilst I know he's not as talented, I dont see the same kind of stiffness in his style. Bit ungainly but not stiff per se.

Yes I've noticed it in Quigg and I agree about Thompson. Not all people with a late start are going to have that quality, and I believe Sergio didn't start boxing until he was nearly twenty but he was very fluid at his peak.

I think a large part of it in the late-starter cases is not being very comfortable in the ring, hence the tensing up.

It's just an opinion I think he would beat Wlad that's obviously his toughest fight. Wilder could beat Wlad but I see that 60-40 for Wlad. Ortiz is the one I don't know much about. Against other heavyweights I am pretty certain in my mind he wins them. No point in arguing with an opinion, over the next couple of fights my or your opinions will have to change.

I'm not sure opinions will have to chance over the next couple fights. Joshua steamrolling a bunch of Sprott/Bakhtov-esque opponents, which seems like the likely unfolding of events, is probably not going to force me to give up my reluctance to call him the best heavyweight in the world, and I don't see how it will force you to stop thinking he's already at the top.

crusader wrote:

lefty wrote:

crusader wrote:The stiffness is very clear to me and it seems to be fairly common in fighters who had a relatively late start to the game. How much it impacts him and whether he can improve it is another matter.

Do you notice it in Scott Quigg aswell who had a similar late start? He's another that stands out to me in that department..... Saying that though, Tony Thompson had a late start to the game and whilst I know he's not as talented, I dont see the same kind of stiffness in his style. Bit ungainly but not stiff per se.

Yes I've noticed it in Quigg and I agree about Thompson. Not all people with a late start are going to have that quality, and I believe Sergio didn't start boxing until he was nearly twenty but he was very fluid at his peak.

I think a large part of it in the late-starter cases is not being very comfortable in the ring, hence the tensing up.

It's just an opinion I think he would beat Wlad that's obviously his toughest fight. Wilder could beat Wlad but I see that 60-40 for Wlad. Ortiz is the one I don't know much about. Against other heavyweights I am pretty certain in my mind he wins them. No point in arguing with an opinion, over the next couple of fights my or your opinions will have to change.

I'm not sure opinions will have to chance over the next couple fights. Joshua steamrolling a bunch of Sprott/Bakhtov-esque opponents, which seems like the likely unfolding of events, is probably not going to force me to give up my reluctance to call him the best heavyweight in the world, and I don't see how it will force you to stop thinking he's already at the top.

I quite like the look of Ortiz, looks like a real wildcard to me.

ikorolev wrote:

crusader wrote:There's still far too many questions for me to think that he's already the best HW in the world. His chin hasn't been tested, we haven't seen how his stamina will fair after several rounds, and he hasn't had a top opponent take the fight to him so I'm not sure how good his defense will be at the highest levels either. Moreover, several of his opponents have been undersized and he seems stiff to me, not moving anywhere near as fluidly as someone like Wlad does.

On the more positive side he's a legit SHW, he's got good though I doubt massive power, a nice variety of punches that he puts together well, and time is on his side. He's performed very well so far, I think he's definitely the best prospect in the HW division, and he oozes potential, but there is no way that I can say that he's already the best fighter in the division. I'm not sure that the Sky/MR hype machine are even saying that yet.

To be fair, he was not afraid to take shots from Bakhtov, so his chin is most likely at least decent.

I'm fairly confident that Joshua has a better chin than someone like David Price and that it's not going to shatter the first time he gets hits cleanly. However, I don't believe that Bakhtov tested his chin in a way that suggests that it won't hold him back as he operates against the highest level of opponents, which is particularly relevant in this case since someone is arguing that Joshua is already the best fighter in the division.

I doubt Michael Sprott will see the third round, but after beating Baktov in the way he did there is little point in fighting lesser opponents (unless there are last minute changes) so over the next couple of fights I would think it would be against someone top 15ish and from there I think it will be more apparent just how good or not good he is. I think I can see it now, you don't think so. I might be wrong when he fights say Tony Thompson and struggles through, equally your opinion might change if he drops him three times in five minutes.

A side point, what heavyweights will look bigger/impressive than AJ. The current top 10 (bar the two I mention) are all smaller. It is going to be hard to find someone who is the same size with better skills thats why I said convince me who it could be. We have a fairly weak division throughout.

I believe that all you have to do to find a guy near the same size or even larger with better skills is look at the consensus number one in the division.

To think that Joshua is already better than him and everyone else in the division requires loads of assumptions that I don't think are justified.

Would you agree that subjectively Anthony Joshua is top 3?

No, but there is a much stronger case for him being second or third than first.

Tell me the fighters that you think beat Anthony Joshua if they fight tomorrow?

I'm confident that Wlad would beat him and if Haye returned in form I'd favor him over Joshua as well. There are loads of others like Povetkin, Takam, Chisora, and Wilder who I think would have good chances of beating Joshua too, but I'm less sure when it comes to those types. Aside from thinking that Wlad is clearly better than him now, for me it's not so much that Joshua couldn't beat top fighters and be in the top three as it is that he hasn't answered certain questions in a way that suggests he should be there, so a it stands he hasn't shown me enough for him to take a top three spot.