BoxRec

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Realistically, the bad loss to Smith should have only prevented a Tyson-Witherspoon fight in the short run. That fight was in 1986. Certainly they could have fought in 1988 or 1989.
Witherspoon challenged Don King who had been cheating his fighters out of their money. King wouldn't let Witherspoon fight his fighters; which included most of the contenders and of course Tyson himself.

Who knows, without King the fight may never have happened anyway. Maybe Witherspoon would have lost to one of the other contenders and hurt his chances.

For whatever its worth, I remember hearing around 1990 ( from sources that are questionable ) that Witherspoon was the only fighter that Tyson's camp was afraid of.

As a huge Tyson fan back in the 1980s Tim was the one guy who was a real threat to Mike.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There is no possible scenario where Tyson rates over Holyfield. Better scalps and he whipped his ass. It's one of the few all time ranking scenarios that isn't subjective at all.

Losing to Bowe is a negative? Tyson never beat anyone of that caliber in his entire career.

who did holyfield beat at heavy weight other than tyson? he fought the two old dudes in holmes and foreman not exactly tough fights and then lost to moorer ,bowe, lewis ,ruiz and so on , i'm a big holyfield fan but his record at heavy weight isn't better than tysons

stevedoc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There is no possible scenario where Tyson rates over Holyfield. Better scalps and he whipped his ass. It's one of the few all time ranking scenarios that isn't subjective at all.

Losing to Bowe is a negative? Tyson never beat anyone of that caliber in his entire career.

who did holyfield beat at heavy weight other than tyson? he fought the two old dudes in holmes and foreman not exactly tough fights and then lost to moorer ,bowe, lewis ,ruiz and so on , i'm a big holyfield fan but his record at heavy weight isn't better than tysons

He beat Bowe, got robbed vs Lewis, beat Mercer, Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Douglas, Dokes, Cooper and of course, Tyson himself. Did you not know that Steve?

stevedoc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There is no possible scenario where Tyson rates over Holyfield. Better scalps and he whipped his ass. It's one of the few all time ranking scenarios that isn't subjective at all.

Losing to Bowe is a negative? Tyson never beat anyone of that caliber in his entire career.

who did holyfield beat at heavy weight other than tyson? he fought the two old dudes in holmes and foreman not exactly tough fights and then lost to moorer ,bowe, lewis ,ruiz and so on , i'm a big holyfield fan but his record at heavy weight isn't better than tysons

You're either trolling or clueless but I'll play along.

His record at Heavyweight is definitively better than Tyson's. Who did he beat besides Tyson x2? All of the guys you listed(with the exception of Lewis and their second fight was razor close) that he lost to for starters and Foreman would have been a tougher fight for Tyson than anyone he ever defeated. Mercer, Dokes, Rahman, Douglas, etc..

It's not even close, congrats on being such a big Holyfield fan.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

stevedoc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There is no possible scenario where Tyson rates over Holyfield. Better scalps and he whipped his ass. It's one of the few all time ranking scenarios that isn't subjective at all.

Losing to Bowe is a negative? Tyson never beat anyone of that caliber in his entire career.

who did holyfield beat at heavy weight other than tyson? he fought the two old dudes in holmes and foreman not exactly tough fights and then lost to moorer ,bowe, lewis ,ruiz and so on , i'm a big holyfield fan but his record at heavy weight isn't better than tysons

You're either trolling or clueless but I'll play along.

His record at Heavyweight is definitively better than Tyson's. Who did he beat besides Tyson x2? All of the guys you listed(with the exception of Lewis and their second fight was razor close) that he lost to for starters and Foreman would have been a tougher fight for Tyson than anyone he ever defeated. Mercer, Dokes, Rahman, Douglas, etc..

It's not even close, congrats on being such a big Holyfield fan.

it's like trying to talk to a 6 year old holyfield doesn't having a winning record against any heavy weight that wasn't shot . moorer 1-1 bowe 1-2 lewis 0-1-1 he couldn't even get the better of ruiz ...holyfield beat a fat buster douglas and that's it

Then don't talk to me, I'm sure we'll both survive. Holyfield's greater than Tyson, period. That's it. Mike knows it, so should you.

Tomasino wrote:

stevedoc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There is no possible scenario where Tyson rates over Holyfield. Better scalps and he whipped his ass. It's one of the few all time ranking scenarios that isn't subjective at all.

Losing to Bowe is a negative? Tyson never beat anyone of that caliber in his entire career.

who did holyfield beat at heavy weight other than tyson? he fought the two old dudes in holmes and foreman not exactly tough fights and then lost to moorer ,bowe, lewis ,ruiz and so on , i'm a big holyfield fan but his record at heavy weight isn't better than tysons

He beat Bowe, got robbed vs Lewis, beat Mercer, Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Douglas, Dokes, Cooper and of course, Tyson himself. Did you not know that Steve?

="Tomasino"]


got robbed vs Lewis,

in which fight?

The 2nd fight in which Lewis did almost nothing except throw pawing jabs. Robbed seems a bit too strong, but Lewis didn't do enough to win.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The 2nd fight in which Lewis did almost nothing except throw pawing jabs. Robbed seems a bit too strong, but Lewis didn't do enough to win.

It was definitely a lot closer than the first fight, but Lennox won that match. Of course Holy was well past it by then, but I don't think he deserved the nod. Good effort though.

Holyfield fought in spurts; Lewis for whatever reason didn't do hardly anything.
Have to agree to disagree.

he does has lots of controversies but that doesn't mean we are going to take away the talent he showed us in the ring. In his personal life? that's another story

yancey wrote:A very good legacy?

Let's see, he goes to the can for rape, gets disqualified for biting his opponent's ear during a title fight, turns into a carnival show, and ends up his fight career in a pathetic fashion. Just to name only a few controversies among a multitude.

Yeah, some legacy.

I was once a big fan of Tyson, but he effed up badly.

The truth is the truth.

I think that it is important to separate the man from the fighter. Undoubtedly Mike would not have been everyone's cup of tea outside of the ring. But he was a joy to watch when he was in it, especially in his earlier days.

Broomhall wrote:For a short period the most destructive fighting machine I have ever seen.

He's definitely up there as a candidate for that accolade.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

="Tomasino"]


got robbed vs Lewis,

in which fight?

The second obviously. I'm going off my seeing it live and feeling that Holy won. I've not watched it since, was a poor effort by Lewis after getting jobbed in the first fight.

Tomasino wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

="Tomasino"]


got robbed vs Lewis,

in which fight?

The second obviously. I'm going off my seeing it live and feeling that Holy won. I've not watched it since, was a poor effort by Lewis after getting jobbed in the first fight.

Haven't seen it in years myself. But neither man was floored. Neither man was ever really badly hurt. And neither man had any points deducted for anything unsportsmanlike. So the only thing that leaves is higher output. Lewis outlanded Evander by about 60 punches.

Shadow_55 wrote:he does has lots of controversies but that doesn't mean we are going to take away the talent he showed us in the ring. In his personal life? that's another story

Talent and legacy are the same question? Tremendous talent, low Ring IQ and lacking wins against his greatest opposition. Some people go too far, Thomas, Tucker, Spinks & ruddock are all really solid wins but he comes up short in comparison to Evander & Lewis in his era.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

got robbed vs Lewis,

in which fight?

The second obviously. I'm going off my seeing it live and feeling that Holy won. I've not watched it since, was a poor effort by Lewis after getting jobbed in the first fight.

Haven't seen it in years myself. But neither man was floored. Neither man was ever really badly hurt. And neither man had any points deducted for anything unsportsmanlike. So the only thing that leaves is higher output. Lewis outlanded Evander by about 60 punches.[/quote]


Then my recollection is clouded. My brother was talking about it a few weeks ago and referred to it as one of the robberies we had watched so maybe that's where it came from. We did watch it together back then. Anyway he did better than most vs Lewis even though he'd hit a slump.

I honestly think Evan Fields struggled with his medication and that's why he was inconsistent at heavyweight. Even still he was top 2 in his era. I'd take the (presumably) clean Holy at 205 ish to beat Tyson at any point.

The comment about Lewis-Holyfield fight needs to be addressed.

The only thing that leaves is higher output? Seriously? Just leave it up to Compubox if there there are no knockdowns, a fighter isn't hurt and there are no fouls?
That isn't how you should judge a fight.
Many of the punches that Lewis landed were pawing jabs that had nothing on them. A clean, solid punch that Holyfield landed is worth at least 10 of one of those.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread about Tyson with the Lewis-Holyfield fight. Lets start another thread if you want to discuss it further.

Tyson the greatest heavyweight fighter in history at one point in time. But not the greatest as in career longevity and career. Ali and Louis number 1&2 there. Tyson of 1986. Wow

[quote="drunkenpiper36"o"]

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

="Tomasino"]


got robbed vs Lewis,

in which fight?

The second obviously. I'm going off my seeing it live and feeling that Holy won. I've not watched it since, was a poor effort by Lewis after getting jobbed in the first fight.[/quote]

Haven't seen it in years myself. But neither man was floored. Neither man was ever really badly hurt. And neither man had any points deducted for anything unsportsmanlike. So the only thing that leaves is higher output. Lewis outlanded Evander by about 60 punches.[/quote]


Did you count that yourself?

Tomasino wrote:
Did you count that yourself?

No. the punch stats are available online as they are for most modern fights.

Tyson had the skills to become the the greatest heavyweight to ever lived, but too much partying and drugs got in the way.

But in his peak he was the perfect fighting machine, One punch KO power in either hand, very fast hand and feet, extremely fit, good defensive skills, heart of a warrior and a cast iron chin.

Tyson would of outpointed Bowe in a hard fought but comfortable decision, would of stopped Foreman possibly around round 10, again in a hard fight and would of knocked out Lewis faster then Rahman.
The only 90's heavyweight who had a very good chance in beating a peak Tyson would of been Holyfield.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Tomasino wrote:
Did you count that yourself?

No. the punch stats are available online as they are for most modern fights.

Honestly? That's great I'm just going to use those to score fights from now on.