BoxRec

I have this image in my head of Stiverne smacking Wilder on the chin and Wilder skidding across the ring on the seat of his pants hitting the ring post and seting off bells like a pinball machine.... D

dempseyfire wrote:

Badhusker wrote:I'm curious how skilled a young George Foreman was compared to Wilder or Joshua? He KO'd quite a few guys much more skilled than he was.

Foreman had a much higher work-rate than either and a better, more varied arsenal of punches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdQdEhnWcDI

I watched Foreman throughout his career, and you are totally wrong as far as his workrate and variety of punches. Maybe you need to watch more of his fights. I watched them all. Foreman was a huge puncher with limited skill.

Badhusker wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Badhusker wrote:I'm curious how skilled a young George Foreman was compared to Wilder or Joshua? He KO'd quite a few guys much more skilled than he was.

Foreman had a much higher work-rate than either and a better, more varied arsenal of punches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdQdEhnWcDI

I watched Foreman throughout his career, and you are totally wrong as far as his workrate and variety of punches. Maybe you need to watch more of his fights. I watched them all. Foreman was a huge puncher with limited skill.

foreman was not that skilled when he was young (later he boxed a little more) but he had one of the best chins of all time and could walk through the opponents punches to unload huge bombs. wilder might have similar punch but he won't be able to trade punches like big george.

dominik wrote:foreman was not that skilled when he was young (later he boxed a little more) but he had one of the best chins of all time and could walk through the opponents punches to unload huge bombs. wilder might have similar punch but he won't be able to trade punches like big george.

George was a big, slow and somewhat clumsy guy with great power and as you noted an excellent chin. Despite his Olympic gold, he had very few amatuer fights (24-3, I think) and was extremely raw throughout his first career. His skills showed improvement near the end of first career and during his many easy setups in his second career, but unfortunately he slowed considerably with age and added weight.

I think his greatest asset was his iron will as he exhibited against Ron Lyle and then in a few of his matchups in his second career. Pretty much the few fights he had against legitimate opposition during his second career. Whether Wilder or Joshua has the chin and championship heart that George exhibited is yet to be seen, but it seems unlikely.

The Great John L wrote:

dominik wrote:foreman was not that skilled when he was young (later he boxed a little more) but he had one of the best chins of all time and could walk through the opponents punches to unload huge bombs. wilder might have similar punch but he won't be able to trade punches like big george.

George was a big, slow and somewhat clumsy guy with great power and as you noted an excellent chin. Despite his Olympic gold, he had very few amatuer fights (24-3, I think) and was extremely raw throughout his first career. His skills showed improvement near the end of first career and during his many easy setups in his second career, but unfortunately he slowed considerably with age and added weight.

I think his greatest asset was his iron will as he exhibited against Ron Lyle and then in a few of his matchups in his second career. Pretty much the few fights he had against legitimate opposition during his second career. Whether Wilder or Joshua has the chin and championship heart that George exhibited is yet to be seen, but it seems unlikely.

Both of the above are pretty accurate. I am still amazed how easily he dispatched Frazier and Norton. The most raw power I have ever seen. You are right too about his chin. I always thought if not for Ali beating him he would have been champ for about 10 years. That loss definitely took something out of him.

Badhusker wrote:Both of the above are pretty accurate. I am still amazed how easily he dispatched Frazier and Norton. The most raw power I have ever seen. You are right too about his chin. I always thought if not for Ali beating him he would have been champ for about 10 years. That loss definitely took something out of him.

Without Ali George would have kept the title as long as he avoided guys like Young and Bugner, guys who would have been able to take him deep. I think the Foreman that fought Young was clearly the best version we ever saw. He had finally learned how to pace himself and deliver punches in a shorter and more controlled manner.

Foremans wins over Frazier and Norton were simply due to style matchups. Both Norton and Frazier could be hit and preferred to fight going forward, which wasn't a very good plan against George.

Maybe we will get a small answer to this question in january after their fights against johnson and stiverne.

I still think that joshua is a more solid boxer than wilder. joshua probably is not a huge puncher like wilder, but he can do everything quite well. his defense is not really good but he is not super open either. he can box a little bit and has solid punch and athleticism.

wilder probably has better speed and power but he has so many holes in his game and is a couple years older already. joshua is still only 25 but already a much more mature boxer than wilder is now (he probably was a more mature boxer while still being an amateur than wilder is now).

johnson won't be a big test as he only throws like 5 punches per round, but he will test joshuas punch, determination and stamina. if joshua can stop him or have a good point victory that will be a statement about him.

stiverne on the other hand might test wilders defense and chin.

I think after those two fights we will know more about who is the number 1 prospect in boxing.

Muralimov

and lets hope

Magomedrasul Majidov turn pro!!!!!!

I don't hate Wilder - I think he might be legitimate. But if I have to bet on who is going to be the usurper to the throne between he and Anthony Joshua, I'm picking Joshua. I feel like Joshua's minimum ceiling is Frank Bruno, and Bruno would be a top 3 heavyweight *at worst* in this environment.

Every time I see a fighter with 20+ fight's all ko's they soon fall apart when they meet the cream of the crop hope i'm wrong about Wilder bloke's like him and Joshua will bringing interest back to Heavyweight division wich Boxing desprately needs I think Joshua will be a bigger draw than Wilder because he seems to have more arsenal than the big yank.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Every time I see a fighter with 20+ fight's all ko's they soon fall apart when they meet the cream of the crop hope i'm wrong about Wilder bloke's like him and Joshua will bringing interest back to Heavyweight division wich Boxing desprately needs I think Joshua will be a bigger draw than Wilder because he seems to have more arsenal than the big yank.

Well then, maybe the two should fight? At this point, I would give the edge to Wilder.

AJ is stiff. I see him having issues with Heavyweights that move around.

Lackeos wrote:

Badhusker wrote:Who will be better? Too early to tell until either guy fights someone willing and able to fight back. Its hard to judge skills and power against tomato cans.

I agree. Power is easy to fake against chinless bastards and skill is easy to fake against unskilled scrubs.

Wilder's power may well be exaggerated as his opponents have allowed him to take a run-up and throw the just about the widest hooks I've ever seen.

has your opinion on that Topic changed after the stiverne fight?

wilder now has proven that he can follow a game plan for 12 rounds and does not have a super soft chin too. AJ is largely unproven but I still think he is the better boxer, although not quite as powerfull and athletic as wilder.

I still don't really get why people compare Joshua and Wilder like they are somehow the same.... If Joshua follows the path to a world title that Wilder followed it'll be another 4 or 5 years before they meet, wont it? Wilder wasn't some green kid who had a meteoric rise to the top of the heavyweight division. He has 30 odd fights under his belt. Joshua is still a novice compared to Wilder, who's been in the pro game far longer than people seem to want to admit.

CheckHook wrote:I still don't really get why people compare Joshua and Wilder like they are somehow the same.... If Joshua follows the path to a world title that Wilder followed it'll be another 4 or 5 years before they meet, wont it? Wilder wasn't some green kid who had a meteoric rise to the top of the heavyweight division. He has 30 odd fights under his belt. Joshua is still a novice compared to Wilder, who's been in the pro game far longer than people seem to want to admit.

Joshua is younger but he has a better Amateur Background and was moved much faster than wilder. I would even say Joshuas opponents were slightly better than wilders before stiverne or at least equal.

AJ won't fight cab Drivers until he is 29, I see him going for a world title in his mid 20s like Wladimir did (wlad was 24 when he won his first world title and I think AJ can do that too). not any HW Needs to fight bums till Age 30, great Champions often win the belt at Age 25 or younger.

dominik wrote:

CheckHook wrote:I still don't really get why people compare Joshua and Wilder like they are somehow the same.... If Joshua follows the path to a world title that Wilder followed it'll be another 4 or 5 years before they meet, wont it? Wilder wasn't some green kid who had a meteoric rise to the top of the heavyweight division. He has 30 odd fights under his belt. Joshua is still a novice compared to Wilder, who's been in the pro game far longer than people seem to want to admit.

Joshua is younger but he has a better Amateur Background and was moved much faster than wilder. I would even say Joshuas opponents were slightly better than wilders before stiverne or at least equal.

AJ won't fight cab Drivers until he is 29, I see him going for a world title in his mid 20s like Wladimir did (wlad was 24 when he won his first world title and I think AJ can do that too).

Well Joshua is already 25, but I agree that they'll most likely move him quicker than Wilder was moved along.... My point was more that I find it strange that after 30 odd fights people were still talking about Wilder like he was some up and coming kid and comparing him to prospects that have only turned over to the pro's in the last year or so.

fergusg wrote:I would personally like to see Anthony Joshua share the ring with Deontay Wilder right now! I feel he would have a pretty good chance, despite his inexperience!

I don't want to be too derogatory about Wilder, but I have this sneaking suspicion that he won't have such a long title reign (unless Haymon orchestrates defences against cab driver type opponents, such as Shannon Briggs).

And who in the current crop of inexperienced, over-rated and protected HWs not named Klitschko are clearly better than Wilder? Wilder pitched a near shutout against a hard hitting capable top 5 HW, took a few solid shots without flinching and moved well for 12 rounds without having to go into a clinch fest. Who else in the current dreary division besides Wlad has done anything remotely comparable?

Yes, he might get clocked in his next fight, but it seems highly unlikely, unless his next fight is against Wlad.

That's a good point about Fury-Chisora. Fury was even more dominant than Wilder was and I think that Chisora and Stiverne are of a similar caliber, with Chisora having the deeper resume.

Cap wrote:I have this image in my head of Stiverne smacking Wilder on the chin and Wilder skidding across the ring on the seat of his pants hitting the ring post and seting off bells like a pinball machine.... D

That image looks like a mirage.

I still expect Anthony Joshua to have the better career, although the question appears closer than it did before. In any fair comparison between them age-wise or experience-wise, Joshua blows Deontay out of the water. Joshua's accomplishment-to-age ratio is way better than Wilder's. At age 25, with 19 pro fights under his belt, Wilder was still fighting bums like Marlon Hayes. At the same age, with 10 pro fights under his belt, Joshua has already beat Skelton, Airich, Bakhtov, and Sprott. Wilder's best amateur achievement was a bronze medal against a field of "heavyweight" (cruiserweight) nobodies. Anthony Joshua earned amateur silver and gold at a younger age against a very rich field of super heavyweights (Cammarelle, Majidov, Savon, etc.). When Joshua was like 21 or 22 and still an amateur, Fury said Joshua was getting the better of him in sparring. Wilder has great physical attributes, but Anthony is just 20 extra pounds of muscle on top of that. I really can't waiver from the belief that Anthony Joshua is the #1 most probable boxer to be the next Lewis / Wlad caliber heavyweight.

People are talking like Wilder is like Michael Grant or something. Wilder is the better HW now. Maybe after AJ gets another 10-15 fights we will say otherwise. If they were to fight right now Wilder would win by UD or KO.

CheckHook wrote:

dominik wrote:

CheckHook wrote:I still don't really get why people compare Joshua and Wilder like they are somehow the same.... If Joshua follows the path to a world title that Wilder followed it'll be another 4 or 5 years before they meet, wont it? Wilder wasn't some green kid who had a meteoric rise to the top of the heavyweight division. He has 30 odd fights under his belt. Joshua is still a novice compared to Wilder, who's been in the pro game far longer than people seem to want to admit.

Joshua is younger but he has a better Amateur Background and was moved much faster than wilder. I would even say Joshuas opponents were slightly better than wilders before stiverne or at least equal.

AJ won't fight cab Drivers until he is 29, I see him going for a world title in his mid 20s like Wladimir did (wlad was 24 when he won his first world title and I think AJ can do that too).

Well Joshua is already 25, but I agree that they'll most likely move him quicker than Wilder was moved along.... My point was more that I find it strange that after 30 odd fights people were still talking about Wilder like he was some up and coming kid and comparing him to prospects that have only turned over to the pro's in the last year or so.

I agree, however it is not just about the number of fights. if you look at the first 25 opponents of wilder they were really bad. I'm not sure he gained much experience by KOing them in the first round.

Actually I think both Joshua and wilder would have beaten all of wilders first 25 opponents even before they turned pro with no pro experience (I'm sure you could have taken AJ in 2011 and he would have easily KOed most of those bum in the park type opponents).

what Counts is not only rounds in the ring but Quality rounds against good opponents and Prior to the stiverne fight wilder had not more of them than AJ.

also Amateur experience also Counts for something. guys with a Long Amateur career are usually moved faster (look at pulev and povetkin) and while did not have a super Long am career like pulev he not only won an olympic Gold but also won silver at the worlds the year before (probably a more impressive achievement than winning Gold at home with a Little help of the judges).

aj is an overrated body builder. wilder kos him within 9

Chepppaaa wrote:aj is an overrated body builder. wilder kos him within 9

At least AJ throws proper shots and has a good punch variety. I know there's a lot more to it than that but apart from his jab/right hand, Wilders punches can be embarrassing. It's much more enjoyable watching AJ go to work (albeit against average opposition). I'm looking forward to see what AJ can do against better opposition who open up more and leave openings for Joshua to exploit.