BoxRec

If you think Duran was the best LW ever, make an argument better than, He was a beast, He was a monster. Look at Lou Ambers for instance. He beat Tony Canzoneri twice, Henry Armstrong, Baby Arizmendi, Fritzie Zivic, Pedro Montanez, Davey Day and several more top opponents, and he hasn't gotten a single vote.

elmersalsa wrote:Of all the great lightweights, the great Ike Williams had the greatest quality of opposition.

I saw Ike Williams in his prime several times and I would wager that at his best he would have beaten Roberto Duran as a lightweight. WHICH lightweights did Duran fight that could have beaten, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson, Johnny Bratton, Welterweight
Kid Gavilan,and other top lightweights of that tough era, the 1940s. ?
The Ike Williams edition I saw ringside who almost killed Beau Jack, would have beaten Roberto Duran
as a lightweight IMO. But Duran was able to go up the weight ladder, better than Ike did...But as a
lightweight give me Ike Williams. But all who saw Benny Leonard rule a great assortment of great lightweights, such as Lew Tendler, Johnny Kilbane, Freddie Welsh, Charley White, Willie Ritchie, Ever Hammer, Rocky Kansas etc., for SEVEN YEARS til he retired, called Benny Leonard, the greatest
lightweight ever with the possible exception of the Old Master, Joe Gans...Benny Leonard during Ray Robinson's Welterweight reign in the 1940s, was considered by most as great a lightweight as Ray Robinson was a welterweight. Leonard was THAT GOOD...

Ambling Alp II wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Duran.... I put him in the same category as Ketchel, in this sense: Duran could of stayed at lightweight for the next decade and still of been the king of the hill... no one in that time could of challenged him and beaten him... same goes with Ketchel, had he not been murdered, no one in ten years time would of come along and of beaten him.

Nobody wanted to fight the great Roberto Duran when he was champion in his prime. The featherweight champs did not challenged him, neither the jr. welterweight champs. Duran had to jump two weight classes to fight somebody. This guy in his prime was a monster, a real fighting machine, a complete fighter. He could do it all in his prime.

So that's what happened...The reason Duran wasn't fighting the best opponents was because they were all scared. Arguello, Chacon, Cervantes and Benitez were all just yellow. Though it seems like Benitez got over it.

The EVIDENCE was there. Arguello did not come up to fight Duran. Cervantes NEVER CALLED DURAN, to fight him. Duran did called him many times when Cervantes fought in Panama in many occasions. Benitez got Duran in a BIGGER WEIGHT CLASS and by that time, Duran was already in the decline. He was washed up. Why he did not challenged Duran when Duran was in his prime?

Do you think Bobby Chacon, the greats Ruben Olivares and Arguello or even Alfredo Escalera and Cervantes wanted some of that MONSTER named Roberto Duran? I think not.

Seamus wrote:If you think Duran was the best LW ever, make an argument better than, He was a beast, He was a monster. Look at Lou Ambers for instance. He beat Tony Canzoneri twice, Henry Armstrong, Baby Arizmendi, Fritzie Zivic, Pedro Montanez, Davey Day and several more top opponents, and he hasn't gotten a single vote.

Lou Ambers? He lost to the great Tony Canzoneri when Canzoneri was out of prime. That is why he beat Tony the next two times. He beat the great Henry Armstrong because Henry was deducted 2 or 3 points in the second fight. Baby Arizmendi was a featherweight. And then, this Ambers got bombed out by Lew Jenkins twice? Give me a break. Ambers is one of the most overrated lightweights in history.

Lew Jenkins knocked men silly for weeks when he was sober, he was a real hitter.

beaujack wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Of all the great lightweights, the great Ike Williams had the greatest quality of opposition.

I saw Ike Williams in his prime several times and I would wager that at his best he would have beaten Roberto Duran as a lightweight. WHICH lightweights did Duran fight that could have beaten, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson, Johnny Bratton, Welterweight
Kid Gavilan,and other top lightweights of that tough era, the 1940s. ?
The Ike Williams edition I saw ringside who almost killed Beau Jack, would have beaten Roberto Duran
as a lightweight IMO. But Duran was able to go up the weight ladder, better than Ike did...But as a
lightweight give me Ike Williams. But all who saw Benny Leonard rule a great assortment of great lightweights, such as Lew Tendler, Johnny Kilbane, Freddie Welsh, Charley White, Willie Ritchie, Ever Hammer, Rocky Kansas etc., for SEVEN YEARS til he retired, called Benny Leonard, the greatest
lightweight ever with the possible exception of the Old Master, Joe Gans...Benny Leonard during Ray Robinson's Welterweight reign in the 1940s, was considered by most as great a lightweight as Ray Robinson was a welterweight. Leonard was THAT GOOD...

The great Ike Williams...What a great fighter that does not get enough credit. He was something special. A true top 30 all time pound per pound great. I have him ranked personally at around #23 or 24 pound per pound and about #4 or #5 at lightweight all time.

If you say that Williams would have beaten Duran at lightweight, well, that is a matter of opinion. I also could believe he would have beaten Duran also. As a matter of fact, that Williams would have beaten the great Sugar Ray Leonard also just like he beat the great Kid Gavilan. Williams, as I said before, had the best quality of opposition of any lightweight in history. He fought in the GOLDEN ERA of the lightweight class in the 1940s. He beat some of them, more than once.

But I also believe that Duran contemporaries at lightweight, Esteban De Jesus and Ken Buchanan, would have beaten the guys that Williams beat in the 1940s. All in all, they were all excellent fighters no matter the eras.

Chacon, Olivares and Escalera were too small to face Duran. Though Duran was a fantastic lightweight champion he did not destroy all before him, he could blow hot and cold and was only 60% of what he was due to weight making issues. Chavez Snr v Duran at lightweight would have been very interesting.

Ambers was finished as a top fighter by the time he fought Jenkins. He was having trouble making weight, had noticeably lost handspeed, and was romored to have lost interest in boxing.His last great performance was against Al "Bummy" Davis a power hitter who he decisioned decisively over 10 rds.

palooka wrote:Chacon, Olivares and Escalera were too small to face Duran. Though Duran was a fantastic lightweight champion he did not destroy all before him, he could blow hot and cold and was only 60% of what he was due to weight making issues. Chavez Snr v Duran at lightweight would have been very interesting.

That is why one of the reasons nobody wanted a piece of the great "Hands of Stone" in the 70s.

I think Cervantes called, but Duran's line was busy. If Duran had call waiting, boxing history could have been different.

You do realize that it really doesn't mean anything when a guy calls out somebody? Doesn't mean he is serious. Doesn't mean the other guy is ducking him if he doesn't take up this supposed challenge.

I'm sure Arguello or Cervantes would have taken him on if the timing and money was right.
Love how Duran was suddenly washed up by the time he fought Benitez. For what it's worth, Benitez had been claiming he wanted Duran long before it happened.

DeJesus and Buchanan were not in the same league as Angott, Montgomery, and Beau Jack, whom Williams had great fights with. Not even close.

When I'm in the mood I like to go back and forth with you elmer. You do crack me up sometimes. You always look at things in ways that make your guy look better. Always an excuse for your guy. Never look at it from another fighter's point of view. Never seems to occur to you that Duran's opponents weren't always at their best.
Are you going to bring up again the fact that Duran beat a guy who beat the Australian champion? That was one of my favorites.

Seamus wrote:If you think Duran was the best LW ever, make an argument better than, He was a beast, He was a monster. Look at Lou Ambers for instance. He beat Tony Canzoneri twice, Henry Armstrong, Baby Arizmendi, Fritzie Zivic, Pedro Montanez, Davey Day and several more top opponents, and he hasn't gotten a single vote.

That's it typically what you get with Duran; he was a beast a monster etc nobody wanted to fight him, blah, blah.
I considered voting for Ambers; he is right up there. The losses to Jenkins are the only thing that kept me from doing so. He is right up there.
And the claim that Canzoneri was washed up when Ambers beat him (at least the first time anyway) is silly. Canzoneri had just beat Jimmy McLarnin in his previous fight 4 months earlier.

The claim that Ambers was vastly overrated is unbelievable.

elmersalsa wrote:

beaujack wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Of all the great lightweights, the great Ike Williams had the greatest quality of opposition.

I saw Ike Williams in his prime several times and I would wager that at his best he would have beaten Roberto Duran as a lightweight. WHICH lightweights did Duran fight that could have beaten, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson, Johnny Bratton, Welterweight
Kid Gavilan,and other top lightweights of that tough era, the 1940s. ?
The Ike Williams edition I saw ringside who almost killed Beau Jack, would have beaten Roberto Duran
as a lightweight IMO. But Duran was able to go up the weight ladder, better than Ike did...But as a
lightweight give me Ike Williams. But all who saw Benny Leonard rule a great assortment of great lightweights, such as Lew Tendler, Johnny Kilbane, Freddie Welsh, Charley White, Willie Ritchie, Ever Hammer, Rocky Kansas etc., for SEVEN YEARS til he retired, called Benny Leonard, the greatest
lightweight ever with the possible exception of the Old Master, Joe Gans...Benny Leonard during Ray Robinson's Welterweight reign in the 1940s, was considered by most as great a lightweight as Ray Robinson was a welterweight. Leonard was THAT GOOD...

The great Ike Williams...What a great fighter that does not get enough credit. He was something special. A true top 30 all time pound per pound great. I have him ranked personally at around #23 or 24 pound per pound and about #4 or #5 at lightweight all time.

If you say that Williams would have beaten Duran at lightweight, well, that is a matter of opinion. I also could believe he would have beaten Duran also. As a matter of fact, that Williams would have beaten the great Sugar Ray Leonard also just like he beat the great Kid Gavilan. Williams, as I said before, had the best quality of opposition of any lightweight in history. He fought in the GOLDEN ERA of the lightweight class in the 1940s. He beat some of them, more than once.

But I also believe that Duran contemporaries at lightweight, Esteban De Jesus and Ken Buchanan, would have beaten the guys that Williams beat in the 1940s. All in all, they were all excellent fighters no matter the eras.

You say that Esteban De Jesus or Ken Buchanan would have beaten the opposition that Ike Williams
beat such as Beau Jack for example ? Well sir you have never seen the prime Beau Jack fight in person or on film except for when Beau was a faded fighter in 1948 in Philly. The prime Beau Jack would have plowed his way through Kenny Buchanan like wheat in a wheatfield. Beau Jack was a dynamo throwing hooks ,uppercuts, bolo punches, for 3 minutes, 15 rounds if necessary. Buchanan or
Dejesus would be overwhelmed by Beau Jack for sure. Beau even outsped Henry Armstrong in a winning fight I saw at MSG...And a Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson,
Kid Gavilan , all seasoned great fighters were better than any lightweights Duran met, BECAUSE
the 1940s were considered a "golden age" of lightweights...

Beaujack and Ambling Alp are very funny indeed. Their hate towards probably the greatest fighter of the last fifty years in my view is clearly in their eyes someone that does not deserve merit whatsoever.

In my view, Ken Buchanan and Esteban DeJesus were EXCELLENT FIGHTERS. They just had the BAD TIMING to fight in the hands of stone era. No shame about that. When they claim that Duran's opposition at lw was weak and like if he was fighting TOMATO CANS. As a matter of fact, one of Duran's supposedly weak opponents beat one of the greatest champions in history in the great Alexis Arguello. As a matter of fact, two Duran's VICTIMS beat Arguello, but still, I guess they were not Americans, so Duran will never get the credit in their eyes. Like if the 40s and 50s lightweights would beat Duran every time and his opponents do not have any chance with the greats like Ike Williams, Beau Jack or Joltin' Joe Brown.

Secondly, no matter what Duran does, in their eyes, Duran does not get the credit. The last thing I see in some fighter's records, some jump in class to fight other champs. That was NEVER THE CASE WITH THE HANDS OF STONE. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall a fighter being WASHED UP challenging Duran.

Nobody, absolutely, nobody, wanted a piece of Duran when he was lightweight champion. Duran,s one the most feared champions in boxing history. He had to jump two weight classes to get some real competition and still,... whupped the darling boy in fantastic fashion. But, no. The darling boy DID NOT FIGHT HIS FIGHT...WHAT A JOKE.

THIRD, I cannot phantom Sammy Angott, nor Beau Jack nor Lew Jenkins nor Bob Montgomery, beating somebody like Duran. The great Ike Williams? I could see a great match with Duran. And I see Duran the winner. He was COMPLETE FIGHTER. Duran could do it all in the ring. Put Duran in the golden era of lightweights of the 40s, and he comes out on top like Williams did. Buchanan and DeJesus would have some solid wins in thT era too.

elmersalsa wrote:Beaujack and Ambling Alp are very funny indeed. Their hate towards probably the greatest fighter of the last fifty years in my view is clearly in their eyes someone that does not deserve merit whatsoever.

In my view, Ken Buchanan and Esteban DeJesus were EXCELLENT FIGHTERS. They just had the BAD TIMING to fight in the hands of stone era. No shame about that. When they claim that Duran's opposition at lw was weak and like if he was fighting TOMATO CANS. As a matter of fact, one of Duran's supposedly weak opponents beat one of the greatest champions in history in the great Alexis Arguello. As a matter of fact, two Duran's VICTIMS beat Arguello, but still, I guess they were not Americans, so Duran will never get the credit in their eyes. Like if the 40s and 50s lightweights would beat Duran every time and his opponents do not have any chance with the greats like Ike Williams, Beau Jack or Joltin' Joe Brown.

Secondly, no matter what Duran does, in their eyes, Duran does not get the credit. The last thing I see in some fighter's records, some jump in class to fight other champs. That was NEVER THE CASE WITH THE HANDS OF STONE. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall a fighter being WASHED UP challenging Duran.

Nobody, absolutely, nobody, wanted a piece of Duran when he was lightweight champion. Duran,s one the most feared champions in boxing history. He had to jump two weight classes to get some real competition and still,... whupped the darling boy in fantastic fashion. But, no. The darling boy DID NOT FIGHT HIS FIGHT...WHAT A JOKE.

THIRD, I cannot phantom Sammy Angott, nor Beau Jack nor Lew Jenkins nor Bob Montgomery, beating somebody like Duran. The great Ike Williams? I could see a great match with Duran. And I see Duran the winner. He was COMPLETE FIGHTER. Duran could do it all in the ring. Put Duran in the golden era of lightweights of the 40s, and he comes out on top like Williams did. Buchanan and DeJesus would have some solid wins in thT era too.

To quote Joe Pesci in "Goodfellows",YOU think I'm funny, I make you laugh ? Well Roberto Duran in my mind was a great, great fighter who belongs with the elite lightweights of alltime.
But for you to say that "you cannot envision" someone like a prime Beau Jack or Bob Montgomery
to beat Roberto Duran ,leads me to this question. Aside from a Beau Jack film ,when he was fading,
against Ike Williams in Philly in 1948, have you ever seen a prime Beau Jack on film or ringside ?
Well I have many times including his victory over a still formidable Henry Armstrong...Beau Jack, along with Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson, Johnny Bratton, and
Ike Williams ,were a part of the "golden age of lightweights of the 1940s, who were all great seasoned lightweights, and each were better than the lightweights Roberto Duran had to face IMO. Ike Williams was the best of that lot, when he wasn't "handcuffed", and was considered just a notch below the greatest fighter I ever saw Welterweight Ray Robinson. Roberto Duran fits in with these guys, but I believe that Ike Williams H2H would have beaten Roberto Duran as a LIGHTWEIGHT only...Styles...

I do not have a problem whatsoever in here if someone says that the great Ike Williams woul have beaten the great Roberto Duran. Or to say that the great Pernell Whitaker or Benny Leonard or any other great lightweight of the past would have beaten the Hands of Stone. Just like I do not have a problem if someone says that the great Larry Holmes or Evander Holyfield would have beaten the greats like Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis or Joe Frazier.

They were all great and exceptional boxers in which I could see great bouts between them. The MAIN PROBLEM I GOT with some folks anywhere I go, whether be in person or in forums like these, is that when evaluating Duran's reign at lightweight champion, they come up with silly evaluations like if he fought TOMATO CANS for thos ven years of 12 titl defenses. Look at their records and abilities. Duran fought some EXCELLENT FIGHTERS AT 135 lbs. Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus are hall of fame fighters in my view. Well, at least Buchanan is already in. Esteban should be in, too. And why not? His resume was excellent!


Ray Lampkin gave Duran one of his toughest battles. It was a fourteen round brutal affair that ended in a brutal KO. In the heat of tropical Panama City climate. Lampkin was NABF lightweight champ. Oh, I guess he was not good enough.

Vilomar Fernandez beat the great Alexis Arguello outright in Madison Square Garden. It was Arguello's only loss in more than 35 fights between 1974 to 1982. Still, not good enough.

Hector Thompson almost stopped Duran in Panama City. It was a violent affair that Duran had to suck it up and dig deep to win by KO in 8.. Thompson was also lightweight and jr welter champ, I believe, of Australia.

Ishimatsu "Guts" Suzuki beat Rodolfo "El Gato" Gonzalez twice. And he beat Buchanan also and went 13 rounds with hall of famer Ismael Laguna. Guts was also Oriental lightweight champion. Still, not good enough. Then what??? For Duran is damned if he does, damned if he does not...That is the BOTTOM LINE.
DURAN
All these great lightweight champs had other champs from Power weight classes challenging them. I do not see Danny Lopez nor Arguello nor Alfredo Escalera challenging Duran? Do you guys see that?

I do not see a WASHED UP FORMER CHAMP OF ANY WEIGHT CLASS CHALLENGING Duran either. DURAN

I don't know who suggested those guys were tomato cans, because obviously they weren't, it's just that beating guys like Thompson, Lampkin, Fernandez, DeJesus, Suzuki, etc just doesn't measure up to beating the likes of Armstrong, Canzoneri, Arizmendi, Zivic, Montanez, Day, etc.

I've to say I'm no expert and I agree with Seamus. If a dominant champ, say Golovkin beat the current NABF middleweight champ (Andy Lee) it would be seen as something as a gimmee.

Duran was a supremely talented boxer and I think he showed that after leaving the lightweight division.

As Ray Arcel said; Duran would have fit right in with any era though that's not to say he'd be the best of all time.

My uncle who gave me his old collection of Ring magazines and was a huge fan of the sport always said that Ray Lampkin was a tremendous fighter who would have been champ in any other era.

You can't really compare the NABF champ back then to the NABF champ today.

With so many titles around they are totally different things.

I'm making this point to be beneficial to Lampkin.

Ray Lampkin to me is a name on Durans record and I know very little, (didn't Duran say he'd be in the morgue if he fought him again? Or was that someone else?)

His BoxRec record shows 2 losses to DeJesus for the NABF title.

Lampkin won the NABF title against the 14 wins 15 losses Nick Alfaro, he defended against Miguel Mayan, 32 wins 23 losses 5 draws and then again defended against Al Foster 11 wins 21 losses 1 draw.

Ray then fought Duran and lost then returned against 5 wins 5 losses Alejo Jiminez, his next bout against 2 wins 3 losses 2 draws Gene Prado, his next bout 1 win 1 loss Miguel Estrada.

I can imagine Ray Lampkin being a fantastic fighter though a look at his boxing record suggests he was a little way off.

Lampkin was a good fighter and was considered quite promising for a short time, but to try to make a claim he would have been a champion in another era ? Well that takes some doing.

Duran numero uno for me, followed closely by Ike Williams.

I've only seen Williams on one of those old video tape compilations, 'The Welterweights and Lightweights'. He certainly looked very fast and powerful though the compilers had added sound effects to the punches so everything sounded really powerful.

palooka wrote:I've only seen Williams on one of those old video tape compilations, 'The Welterweights and Lightweights'. He certainly looked very fast and powerful though the compilers had added sound effects to the punches so everything sounded really powerful.

At the moment my wife is nagging me about the laundry basket outside the bathroom. I dont mind it, she wants it out. I think this is more important an argument than who is the best lightweight. She also wants my surfboards in the yard NOT in the house.

It certainly seems like a bigger argument, what kind of man keeps his surfboards in the house? If I had the power, I'd ban you from the forum.