BoxRec

I'm fascinated by what it is people are seeing that tells them Lewis is a stronger man than Foreman. I'm not saying he isn't, it might even be close, but I'd like to know what it is they are looking at that leads them to believe that. Genuinely.

To me, looking at it all, Foreman seems the natural born monster, Lewis the big powerful athletic chap. Crucially Foreman had the chin and aggression to enforce his brute strength, whereas Lewis with his chin and temperament always had to give ground.

Foreman at his peak met one guy who seemed to be a match for him physically & was willing to stand up to him, Lyle, and he was left face down unconscious. Numerous men were willing to take it to Lewis, or spent all night angling to mix it up with him. Several of them were men who spent all night opting to run away from the old man version of George Foreman.

And try as I might I can't picture Ray Mercer or Frank Bruno or Oliver McCall or Zeljko Mavrovic ever doing to a prime Foreman what they did to Lewis. They'd all be bludgeoned beyond recognition. I can't imagine Phil Jackson or a 36 year old Mike Tyson being allowed to hang around for 8 rounds versus peak George. Lionel Butler showing up at 260lbs and daring to attack? He'd be going down in the first round. I just don't see this Lewis power advantage.

What advantages (if any) would George have over Lennox?

Destructive power (a notch above)

Combinations

Body punching

Heart

Ferocity

Can stalk and cut off the ring like a jungle cat

Chin

Physical strength

What advantages (if any) would Lennox have over George?

Slight reach

Slight height

If we take average weights I think Lennox has maybe 10-15 lbs, won't matter though Lennox isn't gonna be wrestling or throwing his weight around.

Better ring iq

Good at controlling range

Better stamina

What do you see happening in this fight?

Two possibilities:

Foreman establishes his jab like he did in the Chuvalo and norton fights and it resembles the mercer fight and Lennox realizes he won't be able to just be cute and cruise to a decision win like with tua.

From that point, either Lennox sets the pace, runs for his life with right hand leads and possibly drops Foreman late en route to a split decision win, tiring out a relentless Foreman who turns I his brain off in frustration and swings for the fences.

Or,

Foreman wins the jab fencing contest and forces Lennox on the backfoot, either cutting him off and setting up looping bombs and vicious hooks, or ripping his way inside to kill the body and forcing Lennox to go to war.

Who would win?

The more likely scenario, I think Lennox wins the jab battle more often than not but it won't matter. Foreman has a knack for either forcing his opponent to fight his fight or patiently stalking and setting up a bomb to close out the fight.

Foreman rocks Lennox in the 4th after an intense battle for control of pace and doesn't let him off the hook, winning by knockout in the 6th after suffering bruises, swelling, and possibly a knockdown of his own.


Why?

Lennox is a boxer Foreman is a slugger. When the slugger has more Ferocity and chin to boot, things get ugly for the technician.

logron wrote:Did my homework and just watched a few lewis fights naming Briggs and Grant. Actually, Lewis would not even stand a chance against post ali foreman. No defense and vulnerable to heavy punches in the first rounds. George would have taken him down. Too static. Lewis can punch alright no doubt about that, but look at the caliber he fought. Briggs, a guy who held the distance against an old foreman and almost took him down in the first two rounds. Grant, a big punching bag with no stamina. No way, you guys have to revise your heavyweight class bool.

Not saying Lewis would definitely beat Foreman by any means, but what has the Grant fight got to do with anything? Lewis destroyed him.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I'm fascinated by what it is people are seeing that tells them Lewis is a stronger man than Foreman. I'm not saying he isn't, it might even be close, but I'd like to know what it is they are looking at that leads them to believe that. Genuinely.

To me, looking at it all, Foreman seems the natural born monster, Lewis the big powerful athletic chap. Crucially Foreman had the chin and aggression to enforce his brute strength, whereas Lewis with his chin and temperament always had to give ground.

Foreman at his peak met one guy who seemed to be a match for him physically & was willing to stand up to him, Lyle, and he was left face down unconscious. Numerous men were willing to take it to Lewis, or spent all night angling to mix it up with him. Several of them were men who spent all night opting to run away from the old man version of George Foreman.

And try as I might I can't picture Ray Mercer or Frank Bruno or Oliver McCall or Zeljko Mavrovic ever doing to a prime Foreman what they did to Lewis. They'd all be bludgeoned beyond recognition. I can't imagine Phil Jackson or a 36 year old Mike Tyson being allowed to hang around for 8 rounds versus peak George. Lionel Butler showing up at 260lbs and daring to attack? He'd be going down in the first round. I just don't see this Lewis power advantage.

In fairness, power and strength are two different things. Think most would agree that Foreman was the more powerful puncher of the two. But Lewis' weight advantage over a prime Foreman would possibly make him physically stronger, Lewis weighed about 245 whilst a prime Foreman was around 225, the 20lb advantage would likely translate to a physical strength advantage in clinches etc.

ElJefe wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:I'm fascinated by what it is people are seeing that tells them Lewis is a stronger man than Foreman. I'm not saying he isn't, it might even be close, but I'd like to know what it is they are looking at that leads them to believe that. Genuinely.

To me, looking at it all, Foreman seems the natural born monster, Lewis the big powerful athletic chap. Crucially Foreman had the chin and aggression to enforce his brute strength, whereas Lewis with his chin and temperament always had to give ground.

Foreman at his peak met one guy who seemed to be a match for him physically & was willing to stand up to him, Lyle, and he was left face down unconscious. Numerous men were willing to take it to Lewis, or spent all night angling to mix it up with him. Several of them were men who spent all night opting to run away from the old man version of George Foreman.

And try as I might I can't picture Ray Mercer or Frank Bruno or Oliver McCall or Zeljko Mavrovic ever doing to a prime Foreman what they did to Lewis. They'd all be bludgeoned beyond recognition. I can't imagine Phil Jackson or a 36 year old Mike Tyson being allowed to hang around for 8 rounds versus peak George. Lionel Butler showing up at 260lbs and daring to attack? He'd be going down in the first round. I just don't see this Lewis power advantage.

In fairness, power and strength are two different things. Think most would agree that Foreman was the more powerful puncher of the two. But Lewis' weight advantage over a prime Foreman would possibly make him physically stronger, Lewis weighed about 245 whilst a prime Foreman was around 225, the 20lb advantage would likely translate to a physical strength advantage in clinches etc.

But that's what I'm saying. If Lewis came in at that unnatural weight it would become a handicap to him, as it seemed to be in his hard fights. At some point Foreman crowds him and pulverises him.

When we're talking about heavyweights in the 6'0, 220+ range, you can't determine if A or B is stronger because of a measly 10 or 20 pound difference. I'm not calling Lennox a weakling nor am I saying George would tear his arm off if they had an arm wrestling contest. But when judging pure physical strength (how much you can lift, how easily you are able to push and control and smother opponents) doing it based on weight is nonsense. Michael Spinks had about 30 lbs over Hagler but I'm 100% certain Hagler would manhandle him in a wrestling contest.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

ElJefe wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:I'm fascinated by what it is people are seeing that tells them Lewis is a stronger man than Foreman. I'm not saying he isn't, it might even be close, but I'd like to know what it is they are looking at that leads them to believe that. Genuinely.

To me, looking at it all, Foreman seems the natural born monster, Lewis the big powerful athletic chap. Crucially Foreman had the chin and aggression to enforce his brute strength, whereas Lewis with his chin and temperament always had to give ground.

Foreman at his peak met one guy who seemed to be a match for him physically & was willing to stand up to him, Lyle, and he was left face down unconscious. Numerous men were willing to take it to Lewis, or spent all night angling to mix it up with him. Several of them were men who spent all night opting to run away from the old man version of George Foreman.

And try as I might I can't picture Ray Mercer or Frank Bruno or Oliver McCall or Zeljko Mavrovic ever doing to a prime Foreman what they did to Lewis. They'd all be bludgeoned beyond recognition. I can't imagine Phil Jackson or a 36 year old Mike Tyson being allowed to hang around for 8 rounds versus peak George. Lionel Butler showing up at 260lbs and daring to attack? He'd be going down in the first round. I just don't see this Lewis power advantage.

In fairness, power and strength are two different things. Think most would agree that Foreman was the more powerful puncher of the two. But Lewis' weight advantage over a prime Foreman would possibly make him physically stronger, Lewis weighed about 245 whilst a prime Foreman was around 225, the 20lb advantage would likely translate to a physical strength advantage in clinches etc.

But that's what I'm saying. If Lewis came in at that unnatural weight it would become a handicap to him, as it seemed to be in his hard fights. At some point Foreman crowds him and pulverises him.

When reading what Lennox opponents say about him, it always comes up that he was immensely physically strong.

Tomasino wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

ElJefe wrote:
In fairness, power and strength are two different things. Think most would agree that Foreman was the more powerful puncher of the two. But Lewis' weight advantage over a prime Foreman would possibly make him physically stronger, Lewis weighed about 245 whilst a prime Foreman was around 225, the 20lb advantage would likely translate to a physical strength advantage in clinches etc.

But that's what I'm saying. If Lewis came in at that unnatural weight it would become a handicap to him, as it seemed to be in his hard fights. At some point Foreman crowds him and pulverises him.

When reading what Lennox opponents say about him, it always comes up that he was immensely physically strong.

The say the exact same thing about Foreman.

Fascinating match up. At that rarefied level there is no definitive answer. Lewis was significantly bigger in terms of height, reach and weight if comparing them at their peaks and he fought in an era of much bigger men. On the other hand the Foreman who fought Frazier and Norton was a beast.

I don't think it goes to points but if anybody is blasting the other out I lean towards Foreman and if anybody is using his advantages and outboxing and then frustrating and tiring his opponent out for a late round stoppage I lean towards Lewis.

Along with a prime Liston I'd say they are amongst the more underated of the all time great heavies.

Cmon, George fought Holyfield a good fight far far past his prime.


At his prime, he would have been too much for either of them.

Now when I say prime for George, it's almost as elusive as Ali's because his prime actually never really happened.

You would have had to imagine it taking place during his hiatus.....just like Ali.....though for different reasons.

So we often talk about his two careers....but really his best would have been sandwiched in between.

Though you also have to figure his mental state, and toss it out the window.


Something we don't have to do when we conjecture about Ali.


So taking his mental state out of the equation, and yep that's hard to do, the physics and talent and skill of George at their amalgamated prime would be more than Evander or Lennox could deal with.

But technically that version of George never existed.

dempseyfire wrote:I'd pick Foreman to win everytime because of one thing: the jab. The myth that Foreman "learned the jab" in his comeback incarnation is a pure myth repeated by HBO over and over again. Watch his jab vs Chuvalo, Norton, Peralta. The hardest jab in HW history, and pretty quick and snappy too. Lewis had a good jab but was outjabbed by Mercer, Bruno, and even in spots by Holyfield (although Evander by that stage never consistently threw any punch).

Foreman will outjab him, and thus take away Lewis's best weapon. When Lewis is forced to trade, he's getting knocked out (Foreman's body work is also going to be a major factor)

I wouldn't say he learned the jab in his comeback, but he sure did polish it, along with adding a lot of other
little things that made his jab even more effective.

If lewis can tire foreman out in he early rounds then he could win in the later rounds but foreman would probably put him down with a clean combo in the early rounds so I would say foreman.

Lewis wins easy.. Foreman was too slow for Jimmy Young and he'd be too slow for Lewis. The jab and right hand LL used on Holyfield, Tyson, Rahman, Tua, Grant, and Golota would also work on Foreman. Foreman fought few tall guys other than Cooney - who was so rusty and coked out that Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks beat him 3 years earlier with tremendous ease. That was Cooney's previous fight so he was only fighting for the money. Lewis fought a lot of guys around Foreman's size and made easy work of Tommy Morrison, who actually beat Foreman.

Kalan wrote:Lewis wins easy.. Foreman was too slow for Jimmy Young and he'd be too slow for Lewis. The jab and right hand LL used on Holyfield, Tyson, Rahman, Tua, Grant, and Golota would also work on Foreman. Foreman fought few tall guys other than Cooney - who was so rusty and coked out that Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks beat him 3 years earlier with tremendous ease. That was Cooney's previous fight so he was only fighting for the money. Lewis fought a lot of guys around Foreman's size and made easy work of Tommy Morrison, who actually beat Foreman.

1-Foreman actually beat several men who were 6'1 or higher and who weighed at least 210 lbs. He also fought a surprising number of guys who had k.o rates of 70% or higher. You could argue he was an expert at taking out big punchers.

2-abc logic doesn't work in boxing. A beating B doesn't mean A will beat C.

First of all, Lennox outweighs young by like 30 lbs and has a much larger frame so it's silly to somehow make the case that if a dehydrated Foreman couldn't tag young enough that he'd be missing Lennox who was a behemoth in comparison.

As for Morrison, you mean the guy who changed his entire fighting style overnight and literally ran (turned his back) on a 40 year old with the intention to win a decision?

Again, abc logic doesn't work here. Too many factors. Frazier beat Ali and foreman beat frazier but Ali beat foreman. And I think morrison even broke a hand during the Lennox fight.

Cygnus475 wrote:[Frazier beat Ali and foreman beat frazier but Ali beat foreman. And I think morrison even broke a hand during the Lennox fight.

A broken hand might explain Morrison's boxing strategy. Morrison was a piss poor boxer but outboxed foreman. Morrison admitted that Lewis was easily the best boxer he ever fought and he didn't have a prayer of winning a round. Foreman was stuck in the mud and obviously boxers were the worst style for him. Foreman was almost as easy to hit as Andrew Golota or Michael Grant. Lyle had him out. Moorer was boxing the piss out of Foreman, but he had fought the majority of his fights at light heavyweight and got careless. His less then Heavyweight chin kicked in and that was the only knockdown or KO shot Foreman ever threw in his last 7 fights. I can't see Foreman outboxing or catching Lewis in a million years. Foreman always insisted Lewis was the greatest Heavyweight Champion of all time. I think Anthony Joshua is much better, but most people are in a wait-and-see mode on that one.

Also... just because Foreman couldn't punch Jimmy Young doesn't mean he would reach the much taller and longer limbed Lewis.. It's much harder to hit a very powerful taller man who can box and jab well. Young had a record of 20-5-2 when he beat Foreman and he actually had George going in that fight.. He knocked Foreman down and had him reeling.

The fact you just said Anthony Joshua (who has had 16 fights) is a better boxer than Lennox freaking lewis only further confirms that you're either a troll or a moronic fanboy who jacks off to pictures of his favorite boxers.

Now I definitely won't reconsider taking you off my ignore list anytime soon.

Kalan wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:[Frazier beat Ali and foreman beat frazier but Ali beat foreman. And I think morrison even broke a hand during the Lennox fight.

A broken hand might explain Morrison's boxing strategy. Morrison was a piss poor boxer but outboxed foreman. Morrison admitted that Lewis was easily the best boxer he ever fought and he didn't have a prayer of winning a round. Foreman was stuck in the mud and obviously boxers were the worst style for him. Foreman was almost as easy to hit as Andrew Golota or Michael Grant. Lyle had him out. Moorer was boxing the piss out of Foreman, but he had fought the majority of his fights at light heavyweight and got careless. His less then Heavyweight chin kicked in and that was the only knockdown or KO shot Foreman ever threw in his last 7 fights. I can't see Foreman outboxing or catching Lewis in a million years. Foreman always insisted Lewis was the greatest Heavyweight Champion of all time. I think Anthony Joshua is much better, but most people are in a wait-and-see mode on that one.

Also... just because Foreman couldn't punch Jimmy Young doesn't mean he would reach the much taller and longer limbed Lewis.. It's much harder to hit a very powerful taller man who can box and jab well. Young had a record of 20-5-2 when he beat Foreman and he actually had George going in that fight.. He knocked Foreman down and had him reeling.

Beg your pardon?