BoxRec

HomicideHenry wrote:

Broomhall wrote:
Maybe in the states Henry but Quarry as far as I am aware was not universally renowned as the most popular athlete. I grew up in the 60s in Africa and 70s in the UK and cannot recall anyone talking about him. Frazier, Foreman, Liston-but I cannot recall us talking about Quarry-maybe some other Brit will correct me?

You are probably right. I do know the two men shared the cover of SI as the most popular athletes in the early 70's. I think, far as England goes, when Quarry lost unexpectedly to Chuvalo he was written off--- and was considered a huge underdog going into his fight with British & Commonwealth champion Jack Boddell. But when Quarry annihilated him in one round, I think that may of made alot of British fans resent Quarry a bit. After all, England has always been starved for having a heavyweight world champion of their own--- rather than having the reputation as being "gallant losers", pardon the pun.

I think your post emphasises how insular US sports fans may be in their view of the world. SI was not widely read in GB-and I am not sure anywhere else in the world-so Quarry being on the cover would not impact British fight or sports fans and again I dont think world wide fans-I think perhapsy in the states where the search for a great white hope has been far more important, also there was never any resentment towards Quarry chinning Bodell-who himself was a not popular in the UK-so yes-fight fans (and only fight fans) may have known who Quarry was but to must of us he was just another yank heavyweight.

I think there have been a handful of US boxers who would have been known if they walked down a street in the uk-Dempsey, Louis, Robinson, possibly Marciano, Ali, (maybe Foreman and Frazier because of Ali )Hagler, possibly Hearns and Leonard, and just maybe "money"

Jerry Quarry never did become a heavyweight champion
even holding one of the various belts.
Thats probably the main reason he wasnt more well known abroad.
Being a champion any kind of champion would tend to raise ones stock.

Caractacus wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

Sklar wrote:I'm 99% sure the image in the opening post is a Photoshop mock-up and not Jerry's grave at all. Disrespectful if so. Unless you're sure, I wouldn't post.

Nope its the genuine article.

IMOP I think that epithath of"The Great White Hope'
sort of trivilizes Jerry Quarry's life and boxing career.
Everyone knows that it was Jess Willard
who was the real Great White Hope'.

Willard brought an end to the "Great White Hope" era of boxing, yes, so its probably accurate to say he was the only true "Great White Hope". But, if one recalls, there were many white hopes in that time--- and to this day, still is. I remember before Klitschko was champion, there was "white hope" talk. I'm old enough also to remember when Morrison was around and how much "white hope" talk there was surrounding him.

I guess, its only "fitting" when there is a dominating black champion--- does "white hope" fits. Quarry, on the other hand, was in an era with several remarkable black heavyweights. And it goes without saying, he was the best white heavyweight of the bunch in that time. If the 70's is truly the best era of heavyweight boxing, then Quarry is indeed the best white heavyweight--- or as some would say, the best heavyweight to never win a title. I don't think both descriptions are accurate. Marciano/Dempsey were the two best "white" heavyweights ever (in my view) and Sam Langford and Harry Wills may of been the two best heavyweights to never win the title.

So where does that leave Quarry?

I guess it leaves Quarry as the best post Marciano American white heavyweight boxer.

Broomhall wrote:I guess it leaves Quarry as the best post Marciano American white heavyweight boxer.

I'm glad you said American... because had it just been "white"....

Then we'd have to pose the question, "Who wins, Quarry or Klitschko?"

Out of interest, does anyone know what the 'L' stands for in Jerry's middle name.

I think the term "The Great White Hope' may be a reference to only American fighters.
Other top contenders over the years from elsewhere across the globe of Caucasian extraction
would seem more like'A Foreigner's Hope".

SteveO wrote:Out of interest, does anyone know what the 'L' stands for in Jerry's middle name.

Jerry Lee Quarry

Caractacus wrote:I think the term "The Great White Hope' may be a reference to only American fighters.
Other top contenders over the years from elsewhere across the globe of Caucasian extraction
would seem more like'A Foreigner's Hope".

Billy Wells, who for a time was the British champion, was considered "The Great White Hope" and was to fight Jack Johnson. But, he was bombed out by Gunner Moir, and all was forgotten. So no, it wasnt just an American concept. If I am not mistaken, too, Jim Coffey and some others from Ireland and Britain were also in the running to be the "Great White Hope".

HomicideHenry wrote:

Caractacus wrote:I think the term "The Great White Hope' may be a reference to only American fighters.
Other top contenders over the years from elsewhere across the globe of Caucasian extraction
would seem more like'A Foreigner's Hope".

Billy Wells, who for a time was the British champion, was considered "The Great White Hope" and was to fight Jack Johnson. But, he was bombed out by Gunner Moir, and all was forgotten. So no, it wasnt just an American concept. If I am not mistaken, too, Jim Coffey and some others from Ireland and Britain were also in the running to be the "Great White Hope".

I think Jack Johnson era when it was quite acceptable for the press for example to drum up the search for a great white hope, but I think by the time Louis became champ this had remained more of an American issue-when-When Tommy Farr fought Louis for example I dont think the white hope monicker followed him, and I think pre war heavies like Jack Petersen didnt get caught up in this.

It was-sadly-mainly Jack Johnson-who attracted this kind of attention outside the US. I think When Schmeling fought Louis for example (second time) Louis was the crowd favourite.

Broomhall wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

Caractacus wrote:I think the term "The Great White Hope' may be a reference to only American fighters.
Other top contenders over the years from elsewhere across the globe of Caucasian extraction
would seem more like'A Foreigner's Hope".

Billy Wells, who for a time was the British champion, was considered "The Great White Hope" and was to fight Jack Johnson. But, he was bombed out by Gunner Moir, and all was forgotten. So no, it wasnt just an American concept. If I am not mistaken, too, Jim Coffey and some others from Ireland and Britain were also in the running to be the "Great White Hope".

I think Jack Johnson era when it was quite acceptable for the press for example to drum up the search for a great white hope, but I think by the time Louis became champ this had remained more of an American issue-when-When Tommy Farr fought Louis for example I dont think the white hope monicker followed him, and I think pre war heavies like Jack Petersen didnt get caught up in this.

It was-sadly-mainly Jack Johnson-who attracted this kind of attention outside the US. I think When Schmeling fought Louis for example (second time) Louis was the crowd favourite.

Louis wasn't altogether out of the "hole" when it came to racial tensions in this country.... true he was America's hero in the minds of millions... but that didn't stop Jack Dempsey and other promoters to arrange a "white hope" tournament of over 100 men... If I am not mistaken, it was Lee Savold who became the winner of this tournament. It was quite a promotion unique to boxing, as at some events there would be three boxing rings inside the arena, and matches would go on and on throughout the night.

Caractacus wrote:

SteveO wrote:Out of interest, does anyone know what the 'L' stands for in Jerry's middle name.

Jerry Lee Quarry

Thanks Caractacus.

Caractacus wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

Sklar wrote:I'm 99% sure the image in the opening post is a Photoshop mock-up and not Jerry's grave at all. Disrespectful if so. Unless you're sure, I wouldn't post.

Nope its the genuine article.

IMOP I think that epithath of"The Great White Hope'
sort of trivilizes Jerry Quarry's life and boxing career.
Everyone knows that it was Jess Willard
who was the real Great White Hope'.

He may have been the original, but who's to say that Willard was the real GWH?

Quarry may not have been as famed as HH argues, but for a decade he was one of boxing's biggest stars, despite his inability to win a title.
He was usually exciting, successful, good-looking, and most importantly, white.
All those attributes helped him lay deserved claim to the Great White Hope moniker.

HomicideHenry wrote:to arrange a "white hope" tournament of over 100 men... If I am not mistaken, it was Lee Savold who became the winner of this tournament. It was quite a promotion unique to boxing, as at some events there would be three boxing rings inside the arena, and matches would go on and on throughout the night.

Nah,It was Johnny Paycheck who was the winner of the tournament.
BTW Has the entire Louis vs Paycheck bout on film been 're-discovered' yet?

BTW I would argue that Max Schmeling was under more presurre and hate from the crowd,city and nation in Gotham City in the second Louis vs Schmeling fight,
then maybe Jack Johnson had been at Reno in 1910.

Caractacus wrote:BTW I would argue that Max Schmeling was under more presurre and hate from the crowd,city and nation in Gotham City in the second Louis vs Schmeling fight,
then maybe Jack Johnson had been at Reno in 1910.

I think by then the Nazi war machine was cranked up, and that was why I said I felt that Louis had moved to become the crowd favourite by the second world war, I think with the rise of the American Civil rights movement in the 60's and the demise of Marciano that the search for a great white hope began in earnest again, but I think mainly in the US.

Caractacus wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:to arrange a "white hope" tournament of over 100 men... If I am not mistaken, it was Lee Savold who became the winner of this tournament. It was quite a promotion unique to boxing, as at some events there would be three boxing rings inside the arena, and matches would go on and on throughout the night.

Nah,It was Johnny Paycheck who was the winner of the tournament.
BTW Has the entire Louis vs Paycheck bout on film been 're-discovered' yet?

Look again...

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

From October 17th, 1941 through November 28th, 1941 Savold competed in the tournament (19 matches, three rounds each) and Savold won the $9,000 prize at the end. It was a tournament ran by Frank Barbaro, and it was to determine the "Great White Hope" to defeat Joe Louis. Strangely enough, though, Savold wouldn't fight Louis until 1951 well after the fact--- this was due in part to the fact Louis was in the service from 1942-1946, and the fact that Savold would "lose" his position as a "white hope" because he ended up losing to Tony Musto and later Tami Mauriello and Jimmy Bivins.

However, Savold would regain some measure of being the top man to beat in 1950 when he kayoed the well touted Bruce Woodcock (who Savold lost to previously on DQ), and it was for the "World Heavyweight Championship" though it was only recognized by the BBBC. I guess England was well desperate for a champion of their own, and this was their means and way around it--- unfortunately for them it fell flat on their face. Of course, when Louis made his comeback and kayoed Savold--- then the BBC withdrew recognition of Savold as ever being a champion; as this was all a reflection of the worldwide disinterest in Ezzard Charles as the champion.

In a way, I feel bad for Savold. His prime years was nearly a decade before, but it is this time frame that we remember him most for--- the same man who some months after Louis, would be destroyed by Marciano. He did, it seem, during the 1940's that he was the best "white" heavyweight, if not altogether the best worthy contender during Louis's time in the service. Then again--- that may be a disservice to such men as Turkey Thompson and Elmer Ray who were two of the most avoided challengers of that era.

What you are confusing is that Paycheck at one time fought Lee Savold's brother STAN, and knocked him out.

Did Johnny Paycheck ever compeat in one of those tournaments with Lee Savold?
Im pretty sure I had read somewhere that Paycheck had been in and won
one of the Dempsey sponsered tournaments.
Maybe back in 1939.

Caractacus wrote:Did Johnny Paycheck ever compeat in one of those tournaments with Lee Savold?
Im pretty sure I had read somewhere that Paycheck had been in and won
one of the Dempsey sponsered tournaments.
Maybe back in 1939.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... spectators

Dempsey sponsored alot of these tournaments. The above clip is from 1951, but Dempsey (apparently) was doing these kinds of tournaments since 1935 (as the next links will show).

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,5173264

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 81,7507122

http://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bi ... 0926.2.166#

How many of these tournaments Dempsey had, I am not sure, but I do know that in one a man named Ed Zastre won the "White Hope" tournament, and I think that one was in the 50's. I suppose the motivation for all this was the fact that Louis had beaten Max Baer and not alot of people held out much hope that Braddock could beat Louis, who was destined for a title shot.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 06,4133422

(Above mentioned article in 1948 shows Ed Zastre, winning a match on a card, and here is his record on BoxRec: http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Human:34846 and from what I can see as an amateur he was highly touted and often matched with black fighters--- one newspaper story I seen said "Zastre to Fight Chicago Negro").

As for Paycheck, I've found nothing about him being in a white hope tournament--- however, he was in several amateur tournaments, and even represented America in competition against the Europeans before turning pro. Maybe that is where it all stared, the confusion?

well,I just remember reading that Jack Dempsey was promoting Johnny Paycheck before the title fight with Louis.
Its possible that Paycheck was not entered into any tornament in order to save wear and tear on him.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 94,4135993

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 61,5565794

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 003,385145

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 84,1084779

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 69,3344133

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 810,666546

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xfb5Vf ... nt&f=false

^^^Frank Barbaro who ran the "White Hope" tournament that Savold won, seems a pretty interesting character.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/barb ... allen.html

His son is involved in politics from what I gather from this news article.

http://www.boxing.com/the_last_willard.html

^^^Found this article and it was somewhat interesting showing how Barbaro's tournament, in a sense, effected other match ups of the time. Galento, who is the focus of the article, was supposed to fight Barbaro tournament fighter named Willie Hayes, but it never came off.