BoxRec

Top 15 somewhere for me.

His resume isn't that much worse than that of Lennox now... who many consider top 10.

with 2-3 more solid wins he would enter a top 10 for me.

He's possibly the most beatable of any ATG in fantasy matchups, but that doesn't mean he's not a great.

bottom part of the top 10.

clearly behind ali, lennox, tyson, louis, holmes, foreman and holyfield. maybe also behind frazier, marciano and dempsey.

so for me he is somewhere between 8 and 12.

I've been a huge Klitschko fan for years, but I'd say Wlad is top 15 off the top of my head. I think if he continues at this pace, he will be in the top 10. I can't see him getting into the top 5 for lack of top opponents. That isn't his fault, but has to be held into account.

Whoever votes top 5 should be immediately banned from polls.

Its kinda hard to rate a guy against the elite of the heavyweight division when their best win is David Haye.... I think Wlad is decent and uses his size well, but I do think he is being overrated off the back of some very ordinary scalps. People have been talking about how he would crush guys like Holyfield due to his size and I really don't see it. Prime Evander would school him every day of the week along with most of the elite heavyweights of the past 50 years. I'd say he is lower top 20 to top 25.

JCS wrote:Whoever votes top 5 should be immediately banned from polls.

Saying he doesn't belong in the top 20 is worse.

Horse wrote:

JCS wrote:Whoever votes top 5 should be immediately banned from polls.

Saying he doesn't belong in the top 20 is worse.

If you think he just misses by a spot or two, I don't agree with you.

JCS wrote:If you think he just misses be a a spot or two, I don't agree.

He's been the No. 1 ranked heavyweight for 8.5 years and he's dominated his opposition in that time.

He's got to be in the top 20.

JCS wrote:Whoever votes top 5 should be immediately banned from polls.

All prejudice and US nationalism aside, looking at his career in a FAIR and objective way, someone could make a strong argument for top 5.

I made the same poll on ESB and BS, and many people are voting for the "top 5" option.

http://www.BS.com/forums/showt ... p?t=658865

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=522291

Those results show the old prejudices against Eastern European boxers are gradually disappearing.

I voted 6 to 10. It's a matter of opinion, people should be free to express whatever opinion they want.

Freedom2013 wrote:

JCS wrote:Whoever votes top 5 should be immediately banned from polls.

All prejudice and US nationalism aside, looking at his career in a FAIR and objective way, someone could make a strong argument for top 5.

I made the same poll on ESB and BS, and many people are voting for the "top 5" option.

http://www.BS.com/forums/showt ... p?t=658865

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=522291

Those results show the old prejudices against Eastern European boxers are gradually disappearing.

I voted 6 to 10. It's a matter of opinion, people should be free to express whatever opinion they want.

Yes, people can express opinions.. but it doesn't mean they're always intelligent or worthwhile... though I suggest you stop insinuating I'm prejudice against your Eastern Europeans.

Short version; I dont think any of the other legends would have been able to handle Vlad at his best.

CheckHook wrote:Its kinda hard to rate a guy against the elite of the heavyweight division when their best win is David Haye.... I think Wlad is decent and uses his size well, but I do think he is being overrated off the back of some very ordinary scalps. People have been talking about how he would crush guys like Holyfield due to his size and I really don't see it. Prime Evander would school him every day of the week along with most of the elite heavyweights of the past 50 years. I'd say he is lower top 20 to top 25.

And Klitschko won rounds vs Haye by landing about 3 more punches; it was a borefest of epic proportions. A peak Holyfield would have knocked out both Klitschko and Haye.

dempseyfire wrote:

CheckHook wrote:Its kinda hard to rate a guy against the elite of the heavyweight division when their best win is David Haye.... I think Wlad is decent and uses his size well, but I do think he is being overrated off the back of some very ordinary scalps. People have been talking about how he would crush guys like Holyfield due to his size and I really don't see it. Prime Evander would school him every day of the week along with most of the elite heavyweights of the past 50 years. I'd say he is lower top 20 to top 25.

And Klitschko won rounds vs Haye by landing about 3 more punches; it was a borefest of epic proportions. A peak Holyfield would have knocked out both Klitschko and Haye.

I think haye is underrated. he was the undisputed cruiserweight champ and pretty dominant in his short world title reign in HW too. I don't think he is a really great HW but he is a great, very fast athlete with good punch und solid boxing fundamentals. haye was definitely an above average HW champion and one of the most talented guys around in HW in the last decade. that was a really good win for wlad (to be fair one of the few good opponents he fought).

I think ranking wlad top5 would be delusional but outside the top20 would not be much better either. I think top10 or just barely outside is the most realistic ranking.

dominik wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

CheckHook wrote:Its kinda hard to rate a guy against the elite of the heavyweight division when their best win is David Haye.... I think Wlad is decent and uses his size well, but I do think he is being overrated off the back of some very ordinary scalps. People have been talking about how he would crush guys like Holyfield due to his size and I really don't see it. Prime Evander would school him every day of the week along with most of the elite heavyweights of the past 50 years. I'd say he is lower top 20 to top 25.

And Klitschko won rounds vs Haye by landing about 3 more punches; it was a borefest of epic proportions. A peak Holyfield would have knocked out both Klitschko and Haye.

I think haye is underrated. he was the undisputed cruiserweight champ and pretty dominant in his short world title reign in HW too. I don't think he is a really great HW but he is a great, very fast athlete with good punch und solid boxing fundamentals. haye was definitely an above average HW champion and one of the most talented guys around in HW in the last decade. that was a really good win for wlad (to be fair one of the few good opponents he fought).

I think ranking wlad top5 would be delusional but outside the top20 would not be much better either. I think top10 or just barely outside is the most realistic ranking.

Charley Powell was an even bigger, better athlete than Haye with more sound boxing skills, but no-one cites wins over him as top notch.
Haye probably is Wlad's best win, but he's far from a Hall of Fame fighter. HWs in the top 20 all beat Hall of Fame fighters. Competition is much more important to me than title defenses . . .Hopkins wouldn't make my top 10 middleweights either because his opposition at 160 was by and large paltry.

dempseyfire wrote:HWs in the top 20 all beat Hall of Fame fighters. Competition is much more important to me than title defenses

Being as dominant as Wlad has has absolutely strangled the competitiveness out of the division. It's hard to create fellow hall of famers when you haven't lost more than a round or two in TEN years...

Dominance and competition can't both survive together. A lot of Wlad's resume troubles can be traced back to Lennox Lewis. Lewis has two HOF wins, and both guys were past their best. I won't go so far as to say they were from a previous era, but clearly neither were close to prime when Lewis got them. Aside from those two, Lewis didn't allow for competition in his era either. He was clearly the best save a slip up or two which he avenged in destructive manner. None of the "also rans" in Lewis' era were given the opportunity to carry over into Wlad's era because of Lewis dominance. And Wlad's dominance hasn't allowed any creation of new potential candidates. Some day Wlad will lose, and his name will be huge on somebodies resume...which will in turn be huge for someone else.

All that being said, the HOF selection is such a sham, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Rahman and Byrd somehow get in...

CheckHook wrote:Its kinda hard to rate a guy against the elite of the heavyweight division when their best win is David Haye.... I think Wlad is decent and uses his size well, but I do think he is being overrated off the back of some very ordinary scalps. People have been talking about how he would crush guys like Holyfield due to his size and I really don't see it. Prime Evander would school him every day of the week along with most of the elite heavyweights of the past 50 years. I'd say he is lower top 20 to top 25.

And the Evander who fought Lewis would school him too.

Hell, Donovan Ruddock would have beaten Wlad.

ATGs in the heavies are virtually impossible to weigh up accurately.

The main issue is weight versus achievement at the time.

If you pulled Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Walcott, Frazier out of their eras and dumped them straight in a fight with Wlad, or indeed Vitali, Lewis, Bowe etc

It would be a massacre. Too much size. Even Ali would get beaten. However, in context these aforementioned fighters were arguably greater.

And if Ali grew up in the modern era with modern nutrition and training, he would probably be a muscled, heavy, but still quick (maybe quicker) fighter at say 235 lbs and would be on top.

The others mentioned probably had too small frames.

So....... For me; I judge heavy P4P with regard to context. I would say Wlad is top 15 for sure, maybe lower top 10.

reggaereggae wrote:ATGs in the heavies are virtually impossible to weigh up accurately.

The main issue is weight versus achievement at the time.

If you pulled Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Walcott, Frazier out of their eras and dumped them straight in a fight with Wlad, or indeed Vitali, Lewis, Bowe etc

It would be a massacre. Too much size. Even Ali would get beaten. However, in context these aforementioned fighters were arguably greater.

And if Ali grew up in the modern era with modern nutrition and training, he would probably be a muscled, heavy, but still quick (maybe quicker) fighter at say 235 lbs and would be on top.

The others mentioned probably had too small frames.

So....... For me; I judge heavy P4P with regard to context. I would say Wlad is top 15 for sure, maybe lower top 10.

This is beyond ignorant. Byrd, Haye, Ibragimov and Chambers have barely been massacred among these big HWs and they are not any bigger (and in Byrd and Chamber's case, smaller) than the likes of Louis, Walcott, Dempsey . . let alone Ali. Wlad was scared to throw more than two punches against two natural cruisers in Haye and Ibragimov because he knew those "little guys" would turn his lights out if he made one mistake.

dempseyfire wrote:

reggaereggae wrote:ATGs in the heavies are virtually impossible to weigh up accurately.

The main issue is weight versus achievement at the time.

If you pulled Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Walcott, Frazier out of their eras and dumped them straight in a fight with Wlad, or indeed Vitali, Lewis, Bowe etc

It would be a massacre. Too much size. Even Ali would get beaten. However, in context these aforementioned fighters were arguably greater.

And if Ali grew up in the modern era with modern nutrition and training, he would probably be a muscled, heavy, but still quick (maybe quicker) fighter at say 235 lbs and would be on top.

The others mentioned probably had too small frames.

So....... For me; I judge heavy P4P with regard to context. I would say Wlad is top 15 for sure, maybe lower top 10.

This is beyond ignorant. Byrd, Haye, Ibragimov and Chambers have barely been massacred among these big HWs and they are not any bigger (and in Byrd and Chamber's case, smaller) than the likes of Louis, Walcott, Dempsey . . let alone Ali. Wlad was scared to throw more than two punches against two natural cruisers in Haye and Ibragimov because he knew those "little guys" would turn his lights out if he made one mistake.

Excluding the Pulev fight.Wlad is the most over cautious heavyweight champion in history.
Very low out put and boring as hell.Normally I would rather watch paint dry than a Klitschko fight.

He's not even the best Klitchko.

Ricky_ wrote:He's not even the best Klitchko.

I used to think the same thing.But I am now convinced that Wlad is the better of the brothers.

dempseyfire wrote:The current scene is now full of so many kids who know so little about boxing history, this whole thread is just troll bait from not white supremacist "Freedom" aka Tunney.

Klitschko is outside the top 20. The value of the number of title defenses drastically decreases in the era of numerous paper belts along with reigning when the talent depth of boxing in the upper weight classes has truly gone to crap, although I give Wlad credit for consistency; a trait historically rare in the HW division.

Can you please name the 20 fighters ahead of him???? Thats a bold statment

It is absolutely impossible to judge who would beat who there are so many variables, not least size. How big was Marciano or Tyson 5'11" / 6'0"? Neither would have any hope of beating either of the Klitschkos, 6'7" of sheer muscle and athleticism.

That doesn't necessarily mean that (for example) Wlad is a better champion than Tyson was in his day.

It's subjective and you can argue about it all day long. There are no rights and no wrongs ......................unless it becomes silly season.

Ian1973 wrote:It is absolutely impossible to judge who would beat who there are so many variables, not least size. How big was Marciano or Tyson 5'11" / 6'0"? Neither would have any hope of beating either of the Klitschkos, 6'7" of sheer muscle and athleticism.

That doesn't necessarily mean that (for example) Wlad is a better champion than Tyson was in his day.

It's subjective and you can argue about it all day long. There are no rights and no wrongs ......................unless it becomes silly season.

Tyson wouldn't have had a hope in hell of beating Wlad? If we're talking about the 35yo Tyson who got beaten up by Lennox Lewis, I agree with you (although even then there's a chance he catches him with something in round 1). Prime-for-prime, I think Tyson by KO is by far the more likely outcome.

I find ranking Wlad in an ATG sense to be very difficult. On the plus side, he has many defenses, has had a long, dominant reign as champion, and his size and power would make him a handful for any other heavyweight. On the minus side, he had three abysmal KO losses to fairly low calibre opposition, he has dominated in a very weak era for heavyweights and he generally has looked unimpressive in beating low calibre opponents. Head-to-head, I think he loses more than he wins against:

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Foreman
Frazier
Lewis
Liston
Holyfield
Tyson
Bowe
Vitali

Riddick Blowe wrote:

CheckHook wrote:Its kinda hard to rate a guy against the elite of the heavyweight division when their best win is David Haye.... I think Wlad is decent and uses his size well, but I do think he is being overrated off the back of some very ordinary scalps. People have been talking about how he would crush guys like Holyfield due to his size and I really don't see it. Prime Evander would school him every day of the week along with most of the elite heavyweights of the past 50 years. I'd say he is lower top 20 to top 25.

And the Evander who fought Lewis would school him too.

Hell, Donovan Ruddock would have beaten Wlad.