BoxRec

Bowe only beat one good fighter - Holyfield. Who he outweighed by 20lbs. And he lost once.

He avoided Lewis, and for that I cannot believe Bowe belongs in the IBHOF.

Oh and he only beat Billy Zumbrun on a SD

At the time that Bowe dropped the WBC belt in the bin Tyson was in jail and Holyfield had retired after the first Bowe fight (albeit briefly) so where was the money fight? It wouldn't have been piss poor pay to fight Lewis. Most sources claim HBO were putting up $32 million for them to share. Everybody knew of the agreement for the winners of Holyfield-Bowe and Lewis-Ruddock to fight each other in the lead up to those fights. Funny how there wasn't an issue for Newman and Bowe beforehand. Reneging on the agreement and being prepared to split up the undisputed heavyweight championship doesn't reflect well on the Bowe or his camp.

Cholo_cws wrote:At the time that Bowe dropped the WBC belt in the bin Tyson was in jail and Holyfield had retired after the first Bowe fight (albeit briefly) so where was the money fight? It wouldn't have been piss poor pay to fight Lewis. Most sources claim HBO were putting up $32 million for them to share. Everybody knew of the agreement for the winners of Holyfield-Bowe and Lewis-Ruddock to fight each other in the lead up to those fights. Funny how there wasn't an issue for Newman and Bowe beforehand. Reneging on the agreement and being prepared to split up the undisputed heavyweight championship doesn't reflect well on the Bowe or his camp.

Blah blah blah.

There was a seven month gap between the Bowe and Stewart fights for Holy, and less than a year between both Holy- Bowe fights.

It was take a special kind of idiot not to think that fight wasn't expected and the Holy two day retirement was anything but a good negotiating tactic.

Or maybe Bowe is a coward...

Yawn, can this get moved to Boxers of the Past please? These arguments have been done to death.

I have asked this before, but what is the criteria for induction? Impact? Achievement? The website doesn't even mention it...

reggaereggae wrote:I have asked this before, but what is the criteria for induction? Impact? Achievement? The website doesn't even mention it...

I've seen it listed somewhere previously, long time ago, historical impact is one of the criteria. It is the 'hall of fame' after all.

Boxerbeetle wrote:Yawn, can this get moved to Boxers of the Past please? These arguments have been done to death.

bet you keep looking though

Old bones Ian wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:Yawn, can this get moved to Boxers of the Past please? These arguments have been done to death.

bet you keep looking though

That's why I wish it wasn't on this board - I can't resist reading it

thepocketrocket wrote:

Cholo_cws wrote:At the time that Bowe dropped the WBC belt in the bin Tyson was in jail and Holyfield had retired after the first Bowe fight (albeit briefly) so where was the money fight? It wouldn't have been piss poor pay to fight Lewis. Most sources claim HBO were putting up $32 million for them to share. Everybody knew of the agreement for the winners of Holyfield-Bowe and Lewis-Ruddock to fight each other in the lead up to those fights. Funny how there wasn't an issue for Newman and Bowe beforehand. Reneging on the agreement and being prepared to split up the undisputed heavyweight championship doesn't reflect well on the Bowe or his camp.

Blah blah blah.

There was a seven month gap between the Bowe and Stewart fights for Holy, and less than a year between both Holy- Bowe fights.

It was take a special kind of idiot not to think that fight wasn't expected and the Holy two day retirement was anything but a good negotiating tactic.

Or maybe Bowe is a coward...

So what? It doesn't matter when Holyfield came back when Bowe pulled the plug on the Lewis fight Holyfield said he'd retired so wasn't an option at that moment and we didn't know then what we do now and that he'd find it almost impossible to walk away from boxing. The rematch might have made sense but saying it was expected? No, at least not immediately. Did I say he was a coward? No, just highlighting what were his options.

Boxerbeetle wrote:Yawn, can this get moved to Boxers of the Past please? These arguments have been done to death.

Yes, true. I feel ashamed of myself now

He showed his guts for me when he went cock and bollock with Golota in an Epic scrap.

Sure he avoided Lewis, but money is the issue here and he avoided him for that reason. A guy like Bowe is not "scared" to fight anyone.

Loved his KFC and burgers though. Ruined the poor sod in the end. Sounds very punchy as well these days, which is usually a sign that a man has been in too many wars.

Bowe was very much in control of the Olympic final vs Lewis I thought until he got caught and prematurely stopped, for what it's worth.

Tough fight as a pro, you'd have to go with lewis but Bowe would be a very live threat.

I can't believe the utter bullshit I'm reading in this thread.

For the avoidance of doubt Rock 'Am I white or black?' Newman at least made one thing VERY clear on ESPN that fighting Lewis was not an area THEY ever wanted to go down.

Bowe was a dumb fool with a heart of a lion but BOTH of them knew exactly what was coming and made a business move..AKA a bottle job.

Word it anyway you want but it was THE biggest duck in the history of this sport.

Jon Saxon wrote:I can't believe the utter bullshit I'm reading in this thread.

For the avoidance of doubt Rock 'Am I white or black?' Newman at least made one thing VERY clear on ESPN that fighting Lewis was not an area THEY ever wanted to go down.

Bowe was a dumb fool with a heart of a lion but BOTH of them knew exactly what was coming and made a business move..AKA a bottle job.

Word it anyway you want but it was THE biggest duck in the history of this sport.

Where have you been Saxon? Spending your millions?

Despite his undoubted talent & his fights with Holyfield alone prove how good he was, I do think there is still an element of Bowe missing the boat so to speak.

I don't care about busines, he should have fought Lewis in 1993: it was the biggest HW fight out there potentially.

Any other fighter in his shoes would have been chomping at the bit to put Lewis in his place.

The ironic thing, in hindsight, Bowe would have taken Lewis in 1993, as he was in his pomp & Lewis hadn't quite matured yet & was still pretty reckless & over reliant on his big Right hand, but alas, thanks to Newman & Bowe, we will never know.

Jon Saxon wrote:I can't believe the utter bullshit I'm reading in this thread.

For the avoidance of doubt Rock 'Am I white or black?' Newman at least made one thing VERY clear on ESPN that fighting Lewis was not an area THEY ever wanted to go down.

Bowe was a dumb fool with a heart of a lion but BOTH of them knew exactly what was coming and made a business move..AKA a bottle job.

Word it anyway you want but it was THE biggest duck in the history of this sport.

Amen to that.

Syntax Error wrote:Despite his undoubted talent & his fights with Holyfield alone prove how good he was, I do think there is still an element of Bowe missing the boat so to speak.

I don't care about busines, he should have fought Lewis in 1993: it was the biggest HW fight out there potentially.

Any other fighter in his shoes would have been chomping at the bit to put Lewis in his place.

The ironic thing, in hindsight, Bowe would have taken Lewis in 1993, as he was in his pomp & Lewis hadn't quite matured yet & was still pretty reckless & over reliant on his big Right hand, but alas, thanks to Newman & Bowe, we will never know.

If you don't care about business it is a good job you aren't looking after fighters careers.

'Putting someone in their place' by the way is what happens in WWF. Bank balances are looked at in the real world and a risk-reward analysis.

thepocketrocket wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Despite his undoubted talent & his fights with Holyfield alone prove how good he was, I do think there is still an element of Bowe missing the boat so to speak.

I don't care about busines, he should have fought Lewis in 1993: it was the biggest HW fight out there potentially.

Any other fighter in his shoes would have been chomping at the bit to put Lewis in his place.

The ironic thing, in hindsight, Bowe would have taken Lewis in 1993, as he was in his pomp & Lewis hadn't quite matured yet & was still pretty reckless & over reliant on his big Right hand, but alas, thanks to Newman & Bowe, we will never know.

If you don't care about business it is a good job you aren't looking after fighters careers.

'Putting someone in their place' by the way is what happens in WWF. Bank balances are looked at in the real world and a risk-reward analysis.

I can only look at it from a fan's perspective & that's what I am.

I desperately wanted to see Lewis & Bowe duke it out in 1993 & it should have happened.

It would have been a massive fight, especially in light of Bowe's thrilling victory over Holyfield & Lewis' monstering of Razor Ruddock.

Even if the business aspect is your only motivation, fighting Lewis must surely have been the most lucrative option, ahead of splattering the ghost of Michael Dokes & Jesse Ferguson?

Whether bowe could or couldn't beat lewis in the pro's, we'll never know. But after losing to him in the amateurs he sure didn't chase lewis down for revenge.

U can't say it was financial reasons he avoided him and then say risk reward. Risk reward suggests a bit a of both financial and a bit of fear of getting beat. Which I agree was prob the reason.

I like bowe, and he does deserve to be in there, he was In a Good era of heavies to.

Syntax Error wrote:Despite his undoubted talent & his fights with Holyfield alone prove how good he was, I do think there is still an element of Bowe missing the boat so to speak.

I don't care about busines, he should have fought Lewis in 1993: it was the biggest HW fight out there potentially.

Any other fighter in his shoes would have been chomping at the bit to put Lewis in his place.

The ironic thing, in hindsight, Bowe would have taken Lewis in 1993, as he was in his pomp & Lewis hadn't quite matured yet & was still pretty reckless & over reliant on his big Right hand, but alas, thanks to Newman & Bowe, we will never know.

I tend to agree - Lewis still had significant flaws, which were later exposed by McCall and

Eddie Futch would undoubtedly have noticed the same flaws, and Bowe sure as hell had the right hand

It's a crying shame it never happened, and that Bowe's own career was so truncated by his own profligacy when it came to the contents of the fridge that it never materialised further down the line than the first chance. I think that after both men had experienced defeat, somewhere down the line there would have been a fight, but Bowe was finished at top level after the Golota fights, during which time, Lewis was in his prime.

thepocketrocket wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Despite his undoubted talent & his fights with Holyfield alone prove how good he was, I do think there is still an element of Bowe missing the boat so to speak.

I don't care about busines, he should have fought Lewis in 1993: it was the biggest HW fight out there potentially.

Any other fighter in his shoes would have been chomping at the bit to put Lewis in his place.

The ironic thing, in hindsight, Bowe would have taken Lewis in 1993, as he was in his pomp & Lewis hadn't quite matured yet & was still pretty reckless & over reliant on his big Right hand, but alas, thanks to Newman & Bowe, we will never know.

If you don't care about business it is a good job you aren't looking after fighters careers.

'Putting someone in their place' by the way is what happens in WWF. Bank balances are looked at in the real world and a risk-reward analysis.

Very true. Can we confirm that Bowe and his management viewed Lewis as a high risk opponent?

We can can't we? We can all agree on that from both sides of the debate?

Can we also accept that Bowe v Holyfield and Lewis v Ruddock were qualifiers for a bigger bout between the winners and was fairly conclusively 'agreed to'.

Can we also accept Bowe struggled with Holy and Lewis, surprisingly destroyed a guy supposedly teak tough who Tyson struggled to put away?

Can we accept Bowe reneged on the deal by dumping the WBC belt, melodramatically, you know the belt with Ali and Louis' face on in the bin?

So, Bowe may not have been a coward, he fought some hard men in his career. But he opted for more money in holding fights while waiting on the rich, presumed easier pickings of Holyfield II? Agreed?

Sound business sense? Arguably.

However, Lewis is the one with $100mill in the bank a secure legacy with victories over everyone he fought. He fought Grant when should have fought Ruiz but that aside he did everything asked of him I believe.

Bowe, is skint, desperate and we're debating his place.

Now that is the benefit of hindsight and there are infinite variable and perspectives to be applied to this longer term result.

But Bowe was supposed to fight Lewis. He didn't, it was HIS choice. That's ducking, and I believe, with my Doctorate in Psychology from the online University of Oregano, that he deeply regrets not fighting him.

Because at his best, he may well have beaten Lewis. But history now written, consensus is, Lewis would have.

DavidPayne wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Despite his undoubted talent & his fights with Holyfield alone prove how good he was, I do think there is still an element of Bowe missing the boat so to speak.

I don't care about busines, he should have fought Lewis in 1993: it was the biggest HW fight out there potentially.

Any other fighter in his shoes would have been chomping at the bit to put Lewis in his place.

The ironic thing, in hindsight, Bowe would have taken Lewis in 1993, as he was in his pomp & Lewis hadn't quite matured yet & was still pretty reckless & over reliant on his big Right hand, but alas, thanks to Newman & Bowe, we will never know.

If you don't care about business it is a good job you aren't looking after fighters careers.

'Putting someone in their place' by the way is what happens in WWF. Bank balances are looked at in the real world and a risk-reward analysis.

Very true. Can we confirm that Bowe and his management viewed Lewis as a high risk opponent?

We can can't we? We can all agree on that from both sides of the debate?

Can we also accept that Bowe v Holyfield and Lewis v Ruddock were qualifiers for a bigger bout between the winners and was fairly conclusively 'agreed to'.

Can we also accept Bowe struggled with Holy and Lewis, surprisingly destroyed a guy supposedly teak tough who Tyson struggled to put away?

Can we accept Bowe reneged on the deal by dumping the WBC belt, melodramatically, you know the belt with Ali and Louis' face on in the bin?

So, Bowe may not have been a coward, he fought some hard men in his career. But he opted for more money in holding fights while waiting on the rich, presumed easier pickings of Holyfield II? Agreed?

Sound business sense? Arguably.

However, Lewis is the one with $100mill in the bank a secure legacy with victories over everyone he fought. He fought Grant when should have fought Ruiz but that aside he did everything asked of him I believe.

Bowe, is skint, desperate and we're debating his place.

Now that is the benefit of hindsight and there are infinite variable and perspectives to be applied to this longer term result.

But Bowe was supposed to fight Lewis. He didn't, it was HIS choice. That's ducking, and I believe, with my Doctorate in Psychology from the online University of Oregano, that he deeply regrets not fighting him.

Because at his best, he may well have beaten Lewis. But history now written, consensus is, Lewis would have.

Can't really argue with any of it mate.

My issue (as stated plenty of times) isn't whether Bowe ducked Lewis; he did. My argument is against it being something that should affect him going in the HOF as it (at the time) was a sound business decision. I never like to go 20/20 with hindsight..

It would take a special kind of cretin to put the risky Lewis fight in-between the Holyfield fights, as the world and his auntie expected him to beat Holy second time around and get paid mega-bucks for the privilege.

I do agree it is a fight I would have liked to have seen.

Yep

1993-2003
Would have been a golden age had we seen:

Lewis v Bowe

Tyson v Bowe

Moorer v Byrd

Ibeabuchi v Tua II

Briggs v Tyson

Tua v Mercer

Klitschko v Holyfield

Bowe v Tua

Tua v Tyson

Tyson v Foreman

Klitschko v Lewis

Mercer v Tyson

And all the various permutations.

1993-2003

Best heavyweights?

Decent bunch of fun, veterans, punchers, gutsy gate keepers, ticket sellers. How many matches of those did we see. Precious few.

Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson

Klitschko, Moorer, Byrd, Tua

Briggs, Foreman, Ibeabuchi, Mercer, Golota

Botha, Holmes, Witherspoon, Bruno, Grant,

Morrison, Ruiz, McCall.

http://heavyweightaction.com/PDFs/RING% ... 201993.pdf

That's a good list Bowe is top of.