BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:Really? I have seen these fights many times and always saw it as a back and forth fight with a lot of action. It was a great fight.
For what it's worth, I checked the officials scoring.
They had Ali up, 69-67, 70-66, and 69-66.
Going by rounds, they would have had it, 4-2-1 for Ali, another had it 3-0-4 (yes he had 4 rounds even) and the other had it 4-1-2.

So while they, only one actually gave Foreman more than one round, all three officials had Foreman winning or being even in at least three rounds. It's also clear that they thought there were some rounds that were very close.

I had Ali ahead 67-66 or 4 rounds to 3, going into the last round. (I seldom score a round even.)

One of the most disappointing fights I've ever seen. I didn't see it live, too young. But I read about it endlessly. And I bought the VHS copy. But every time i watched it (many times) I saw the same thing. Foreman swinging wildly and hitting shoulders and arms and gloves. Ali letting him attack the body from time to time... Then Ali landing sharp, crisp, flush punches one after another. Does Ali even miss a punch in that fight?

Not sure your numbers work out.

69-67 = 3-1-3
70-66 = 4-0-3
69-66 = 4-1-2

Foreman scores an average of 0.66

Ezzard wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Really? I have seen these fights many times and always saw it as a back and forth fight with a lot of action. It was a great fight.
For what it's worth, I checked the officials scoring.
They had Ali up, 69-67, 70-66, and 69-66.
Going by rounds, they would have had it, 4-2-1 for Ali, another had it 3-0-4 (yes he had 4 rounds even) and the other had it 4-1-2.

So while they, only one actually gave Foreman more than one round, all three officials had Foreman winning or being even in at least three rounds. It's also clear that they thought there were some rounds that were very close.

I had Ali ahead 67-66 or 4 rounds to 3, going into the last round. (I seldom score a round even.)

One of the most disappointing fights I've ever seen. I didn't see it live, too young. But I read about it endlessly. And I bought the VHS copy. But every time i watched it (many times) I saw the same thing. Foreman swinging wildly and hitting shoulders and arms and gloves. Ali letting him attack the body from time to time... Then Ali landing sharp, crisp, flush punches one after another. Does Ali even miss a punch in that fight?

Not sure your numbers work out.

69-67 = 3-1-3
70-66 = 4-0-3
69-66 = 4-1-2

Foreman scores an average of 0.66

I think live you had all the atmosphere and build up. It wasnt a great fight but it was a great event and that made it exciting to watch, especially as the drama unfolded and the underdog Ali gained control of the fight. Many of the rounds were hard to score simply because of the volume of punches Foreman threw.

We can all sit back and watch fights in the cold light of day and with the result known and watch dispassionately but at the time it was an incredible event to watch, and there were observers who had Foreman in front or level from watching live.

Ezzard wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Really? I have seen these fights many times and always saw it as a back and forth fight with a lot of action. It was a great fight.
For what it's worth, I checked the officials scoring.
They had Ali up, 69-67, 70-66, and 69-66.
Going by rounds, they would have had it, 4-2-1 for Ali, another had it 3-0-4 (yes he had 4 rounds even) and the other had it 4-1-2.

So while they, only one actually gave Foreman more than one round, all three officials had Foreman winning or being even in at least three rounds. It's also clear that they thought there were some rounds that were very close.

I had Ali ahead 67-66 or 4 rounds to 3, going into the last round. (I seldom score a round even.)

One of the most disappointing fights I've ever seen. I didn't see it live, too young. But I read about it endlessly. And I bought the VHS copy. But every time i watched it (many times) I saw the same thing. Foreman swinging wildly and hitting shoulders and arms and gloves. Ali letting him attack the body from time to time... Then Ali landing sharp, crisp, flush punches one after another. Does Ali even miss a punch in that fight?

Not sure your numbers work out.

69-67 = 3-1-3
70-66 = 4-0-3
69-66 = 4-1-2

Foreman scores an average of 0.66

Disappointing? There was more action in that fight in 8 rounds than there was in the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight that went 12. Foreman got to Ali's head quite a bit. He nailed Ali with several shots that would taken almost anyone else out.

As for the scoring, it was obvious that the judges had trouble scoring the fight.
Let's follow the time honored boxrec tradition of giving every close round to Foreman. We do that for Ali's other opponents, so it's only fair that we do it for Foreman. You can't really believe that Foreman wasn't even competitive in several of the rounds.

Look what the scores would be if the officials gave Foreman all of the even rounds:
Foreman 67-66, 4-3
Ali 67-66, 4-3
Ali 67-66, 4-3

Ali only won 3.66 of the 7 rounds if you want to look at this way.

There was an incredible amount of intensity and excitement in this fight. As Broomhall alluded to, if you were watching the fight live you didn't know for a while that Foreman was going to get tired, and probably the last thing you expected going into the fight was Ali winning by KO.

Agree about the issue of it being a great event and exciting watching live...but not that it was close. It wasn't close no matter what scoring criteria we use.

If the '70s ranking are based upon which fighter moved the needle to the highest point for any one fight, then I go...

1. Frazier
2. Ali
3. Foreman
4. Holmes


If the rankings are based upon whom maintained their form for the longest in the '70s, then I would go....


1. Ali
2. Foreman/Holmes
3. Frazier

yancey wrote:If the '70s ranking are based upon which fighter moved the needle to the highest point for any one fight, then I go...

1. Frazier
2. Ali
3. Foreman
4. Holmes


If the rankings are based upon whom maintained their form for the longest in the '70s, then I would go....


1. Ali
2. Foreman/Holmes
3. Frazier

This would of course ignore other great fights such as Norton/Ali fight and Norton/Holmes fight and that Holmes was unbeaten whilst Ali lost 3 times in the 70s (and in 1980)

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Frazier
4. Holmes
5. Norton
6. Young
7. Quarry
8. Lyle
9. Shavers
10. Bugner

It always gets trick when you rate by decade. Holmes was really only a force for two years in the late 1970s. Patterson, Ellis, and Bonavena were only really good in the early 1970s.

Ambling Alp II wrote:1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Frazier
4. Holmes
5. Norton
6. Young
7. Quarry
8. Lyle
9. Shavers
10. Bugner

It always gets trick when you rate by decade. Holmes was really only a force for two years in the late 1970s. Patterson, Ellis, and Bonavena were only really good in the early 1970s.

Personally I would put Holmes above Frazier, as I think he always beats Joe due to the tools both men had. I see where you are coming from though and no doubt that through the 70s Frazier was much the bigger name. I also think that Holmes could have given Foreman a close run, but then as you may have guessed I am a Holmes fan.

Head to head I think it's a tossup; I certainly have no problem with someone thinking Holmes would have won. I was rating them by what they did; by what we know.

I think Frazier's combined wins over Ali, Quarry, Ellis and Bugner trumps Holmes' combined wins over Norton and Shavers. Frazier had some losses which makes it close, but I still have Frazier by a hair.

My biggest problem is who to make #10; Bugner didn't really have a major win over any of the other top guys. However, I went with him mostly because he was competitive against Frazier and gave Lyle a close fight. Maybe someone can make a better case for someone else.

I looked at Bugner and actually he has a pretty sound record and some good wins. There were some contenders around like Leroy Jones or Henry Clarke who might be considered for that number 10 spot.