stujones wrote:gobbles wrote:stujones wrote:Joe Calzaghe and Naseem Hamed - both long reigning world champions, beating some decent names but avoiding the all time greats that were around at the same time.
Both in the hall of fame, but might have been very different had they fought the very best in or around their division early in their reigns.
Bruno - 4 world title fights and the names he fought between Lewis and McCall were like a whose who of boxing.
You could argue that Calzaghe wasn't brilliantly promoted, as it wasn't until his mid-30s that he got to really prove himself. Obviously saying he avoided all-time greats is ridiculous, as Hopkins backed out of a fight with him at super-middle, while Jones I believe never offered him a fight until they finally met.
Multi-millionaire with his 0 in tact in a 11 year world title reign only twice being the underdog throughout his career (Delaney - amazingly, and Lacy). I think most boxers would be quite envious of that reign, even true all timers (I mean the likes of Ali etc) lose at some stage in their career.
I wonder if Ricky Hatton will be a first ballot hall of famer, the man who tried to prove himself fairly early as a proper world champion and got found out. Joe Calzaghe might not ever have got found out, he might have even beaten a prime Hopkins and Jones - why not add Toney, Montell Griffin, Harry Simon, Ottke and Beyer to the list. The fact that we can even debate this is testament to brilliant promoting.
Ricky could have reigned undefeated probably until 2010 had he just continued to fight the likes of Harries, Witter, Gatti, Urkal etc... had he retired never facing Mayweather and Pacquaio we'd be saying "damn shame he was so badly promoted he never fought them, he might have won". Joe has the added bonus of beating Roy Jones when he was ancient and so ambitious he was play fighting with his fat friend as a serious sparring partner.
Calzaghe was obviously well promoted but the examples you give are clutching at straws in my opinion.
Roy Jones- I remember Jones back in the day always harping on in third person about "Roy will do what Roy will do." He handpicked his opponents and in his prime seemingly had the clout to do this. I don't ever recall a time when Jones was at Super Middle/Light heavy and in his prime, that he offered Calzaghe a fight. If this fight didn't happen in Jones' prime I'd say it was more down to Jones than Calzaghe, see also Steve Collins and Dariusz Michalczewski for how difficult it was to make a fight with Jones around this time.
Bernard Hopkins- When exactly was his prime? But you could argue that Hopkins younger days were taken up defending his own ten year title reign with the IBF strap at Middleweight, are you suggesting Joe should have moved down a weight to face Hopkins? Lets not forget also that when Hopkins did move up from middle he completely bypassed Super Middle where Calzaghe was and fought Tarver and Wright at Light Heavy(great wins too, which negates the fact that Hopkins was completely past it when he fought Calzaghe). Then he called out Calzaghe and the fight happened. So again, did Calzaghe really avoid Hopkins or was it just a case of the fight happened when it suited Hopkins?
James Toney- Would this be the same James Toney who made his cruiserweight debut 8 months before Calzaghe won his first world title at Super Middle?
Montell Griffin- Aside from the fact Griffin never fought at Super Middle, the only time he ever won a world title was by DQ when Roy Jones knocked him down and hit him on the deck. Jones won the rematch in about a minute. His other attempts at titles included being completely shut out by Tarver and knocked out by Michalczewski. Maybe Calzaghe did avoid him, but seriously is this guy any better than the likes of Juan Carlos Ferreyra? You're seriously saying Calzaghe avoided the best by not fighting a guy who's only title win was by DQ?
Harry Simon- The guy was a light middle! He had one fight at middle in 2002 then didn't fight for five years. Returned in 2007, had one fight in Namibia then didn't fight again until two years after Calzaghe retired. How can you seriously say brilliant promoting stopped Calzaghe fighting this guy?
Sven Ottke- It's one thing to slate Calzaghes career because, I do agree that some portions of it are quite suspect, but to defend this man kind of undoes your credibility. In 36 fights this guy only left Germany once (went all the way to Austria!). He only ever fought one fellow German in his entire career. Simply put this guy was always the home fighter, and some of the downright bizarre scoring and refereeing performances are a testamant to this. There is not a better example in boxing of how a promoters' influence can dictate how a fighters career goes. If this thread wasn't limited to British fighters then Ottke would win hands down (which is the opposite of Ottke's pacifist defensive stance in the ring!). There's a reason this guy never fought Beyer, the judges would have to actually score on merit as Ottke wouldn't be fighting a foreigner.
Markus Beyer- I'll give you that one, it's a fight that should have happened. But had it happened and Calzaghe won he'd still get criticism for beating a fighter that was knocked out by Glenn Catley! By your standards he'd fall into the decent name category, as opposed to this mythical list of "all time greats" that Calzaghe avoided
