BoxRec

Wilder kept fighting moving backwards. You have less power backing up. I don't know why he did that.

The Boxrec Top 10 contains Antonio Tarver and Odlanier Solis. Fightnews' contains Glazkov and Andy Ruiz. How far of a step down from those guys is Malik Scott? You may find the knockout suspect, but you have to say as much to discount it.

Is there a top ten that Stiverne wasn't it? I think it's fair to say that he was Wilder's only consensus top ten opponent and Wilder failed to stop him unlike his previous thirty-two victims. Admittedly the use of ten is rather arbitrary, but I think Stiverne was clearly the best opponent that Wilder had faced and that seemed to be what made this bout so interesting. Stoppages are products not only of durability, but also of aptitudes and skills which influence someone's ability to evade shots and make their opponent cautious in attacking, the latter of which could be manifested in one manner by a fighter committing more or less when they punch. All these in turn impact someone's ability to stop their opponents, meaning that stoppages generally become easier to score and often more brutal as one fights worse opponents.

For the most part Wilder had fought mediocre opposition that was greatly undersized (previously fighting multiple divisions below) or had a history of knockout defeats, so I think it's fair to question whether his KOs of such opponents exaggerated his power. I also think it's reasonable to question how badly Scott was hurt given his antics in the Chisora fight (which seem like the type a fighter might use when they want a way out--suggestive of a lack of heart that could lead him to act similarly against Wilder) and the fact that the left hook didn't move his head despite Wilder's obvious power. But even if Scott is considered a good opponent and the win legit, there's still not much of a sample size to use outside Wilder's mediocre foes (let's say those not generally considered at least fringe contenders), so I think it's notable that his KO streak ended in one of his few bouts against someone who is widely considered to fall outside that.

I think Wilder has proven his power against Liakhovich, who was never stopped in less than 9 rounds and fought proven punchers like Brewster, Briggs and Helenius. He also KO'ed Kelvin Price with a single punch. Even Mansour's punches didn't hurt Price as bad as Wilder's single right hand did. And Mansour can punch really hard.

One could also note examples of fighters stopping common opponents earlier than Wilder did (look at Gavern's record), but overall I think he's clearly shown that he's a very good puncher. I don't think that many, if any, are doubting that he has standout power, just that his 100 percent KO ratio over 32 fights exaggerated it.

fergusg wrote:With the benefit of hindsight, I don't think we should read too much into Deontay's fight against Bermane, because Stiverne didn't throw that many punches, the shots he did throw were usually out of range (which meant that the durability of Wilder's whiskers weren't tested as aggressively as they should have been), the Canadian didn't try to be elusive and Bermane didn't alter his gameplan to adapt to the challenge posed before him.

That being said, even though Deontay is very athletic, carries a fairly decent dig and has a good engine... he's definitely not a worthy recipient of so much hype and I believe that there will be an awful lot of heavyweight contenders that will be supremely confident of being capable of taking his WBC alphabet crown!

Saverne himself was hype job "world champion". He never even fought a top ten fighter before. He was a completely stationary target doing the same thing all night long, waddling after Wilder and making himself a target and not even trying except in occasional spurts. When he did try Wilder flung his arms up and was wide open, and a better fighter would have taken advantage of that and knocked him off his pencil legs. So now we have the latest tv "world champion" hype job.

Is there a top ten that Stiverne wasn't it? I think it's fair to say that he was Wilder's only consensus top ten opponent and Wilder failed to stop him unlike his previous thirty-two victims. Admittedly the use of ten is rather arbitrary, but I think Stiverne was clearly the best opponent that Wilder had faced and that seemed to be what made this bout so interesting. Stoppages are products not only of durability, but also of aptitudes and skills which influence someone's ability to evade shots and make their opponent cautious in attacking, the latter of which could be manifested in one manner by a fighter committing more or less when they punch. All these in turn impact someone's ability to stop their opponents, meaning that stoppages generally become easier to score and often more brutal as one fights worse opponents.

I understand what you're grasping at - Wilder only KOed people because he fought Class Z bums - but that isn't entirely true. Malik Scott isn't garbage, even if he isn't a consensus top ten heavyweight. He deserves a win over a top tenner and recently whitewashed Alex Leapai. Being a "top ten heavyweight" is generally meaningless in so much as that outside the top 5, I don't think there's any clear separation for about the next 20-25 guys. With that having been said, when you rise up in competition, it is to be expected that knockout ratios are going to fall. Mike Tyson's power wasn't exposed because Quick Tillis and Blood Green took him the distance back to back. He was fighting better competition than David Jaco and Donnie Long, and he still managed to lay out Marvis Frazier and Reggie Grss with the quickness.

The only way Wilder's power should be shown as "overrated" based on last night's performance is if you think he had the dim mak or something with his right hand.

I think Wilder was also listening to his corner and not over-committing into his punches in order to not get countered.

Wilder's punches in the first few rounds hurt and exhausted Stivern, so Stivern's punches later in the fight were not effective.

I understand what you're grasping at - Wilder only KOed people because he fought Class Z bums - but that isn't entirely true. Malik Scott isn't garbage, even if he isn't a consensus top ten heavyweight. He deserves a win over a top tenner and recently whitewashed Alex Leapai. Being a "top ten heavyweight" is generally meaningless in so much as that outside the top 5, I don't think there's any clear separation for about the next 20-25 guys. With that having been said, when you rise up in competition, it is to be expected that knockout ratios are going to fall. Mike Tyson's power wasn't exposed because Quick Tillis and Blood Green took him the distance back to back. He was fighting better competition than David Jaco and Donnie Long, and he still managed to lay out Marvis Frazier and Reggie Grss with the quickness.

The only way Wilder's power should be shown as "overrated" based on last night's performance is if you think he had the dim mak or something with his right hand.

That's not exactly what I'm grasping at thought it's not far off. He certainly has impressive power and has shown the ability to KO people who are clearly better than the lowest grade of bum, but his good opposition is so limited and many of his opponents were so bad that I don't think Stiverne lasting 12 should be dismissed as evidence that his power isn't as good as his KO ratio suggests. After four years and 25 pro bouts, points at which most top professionals have moved into fighting contenders, champions, or challengers, his best opponents included near 40 year old clubfighter David Long and journeyman Kerston Manswell. He started stepping up in late 2012 when he fought Kelvin Price, but the likes of shot Liakhovich, Harrison, and Firtha that followed were very unremarkable and each prone to stoppage losses. However you want to rank them, Scott and Stiverne were clearly levels above anyone else Wilder has fought, he only stopped one of them, and it was of a questionable nature to me although that isn't pivotal to the argument.

It was still impressive that Wilder stopped everyone he faced over his first 32 fights and as noted he halted multiple opponents more quickly than anyone else has. It was also very clear that Stiverne felt Wilder's power and was hurt several times, but he never went down despite taking a number of good shots. There is no doubt to me that Wilder is a top puncher, but despite that and the good points raised herein I think that his KO ratio exaggerates his power in a way it doesn't with most other top fighters as a result of him having so many bouts against such poor opposition.

I think people were dumb to believe Wilder's power was so great to begin with. It's not like he KO'd McCall or Toney. In his first 32 fights, he really didn't do anything that could be actual proof of demonstrating power. He was just dropping bums. Having said that, I think Wilder's punches last night did reflect some pretty good power, and I think Stiverne demonstrated that he was a really tough dude. For me, Wilder wasn't "exposed," because my estimation of his power after the fight isn't any different than my estimation of his power before the fight. If anything, boxing fans have been exposed for being incapable of seeing anything past the numbers on the win-loss record and not being insightful enough to realize whether Wilder's past opponents had any toughness or commitment to win.

I don't like him, but how is his power exposed? His 100% Ratio 'is exposed' but the power is certainly there. Otherwise he wouldn't have hurt the durable Stiverne & kept him honest for 12 rounds. Word is, he fought with a hurt eye, maybe thats why he wasn't precise at all.

However, not impressed by either one. Joshua or Povetkin would beat them both. And Wlad of course.

Boxing Writer wrote:Lennox Lewis couldn't stop, drop or even hurt glass-jawed bum Levi Billups in 10 rounds. The same Billups who was KO'ed 10 times in his career, most of the times early (including 3 first-round KO's). Lennox also couldn't stop, drop or hurt old cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio, who was demolished by Dokes and Holmes. Yet, nobody questions Lennox's power and rightfuly do. So WHY question Wilder's power if he couldn't KO world champion, who has never been knocked down? And he hurt Stiverne multiple times.

I agree with this and let's not forget that Lennox vanquished Rahman in the rematch but some will say Rock's chin wasn't all that. I think it's just sometimes a matter of whether or not your opponent see the punch coming, everyone knows that the punch you don't see is the one that puts you to sleep.

Wilder has power. Even Wlad stated as much after using him as a sparring partner.

Earnie Shavers who is ranked as one of the hardest punchers of all time was 39-2 with 39 KOs when he faced Vicente Rondon who was 36-7-1 with 4 KO losses including his last two in a row to Bob Foster and Ron Lyle. Yet Rondon went the 10 round distance with Shavers. It happens and it has a lot to do with styles. Stiverne kept a high guard all night and didn't throw many punches limiting the openings for Wilder.

Kovalev didn't stop BHop but I don't think that means Kovalev isn't a big puncher. GGG had a 5 fight stretch where he had 3 guys all go the 8 round distance with him. All 3 fighters had previously been stopped by others. That doesn't mean GGG can't punch hard as evidenced by his KO streak during the last 6+ years.

Stiverne has a great chin and fought as defensively as he knew how. Yet he was still as hurt as I have ever seen him in the ring.

I think the real question folks should be asking is what happens to Wlad if he gets hit by the same stuff we saw Bermane get rocked with...

Dennis wrote:Wilder has power. Even Wlad stated as much after using him as a sparring partner.

Earnie Shavers who is ranked as one of the hardest punchers of all time was 39-2 with 39 KOs when he faced Vicente Rondon who was 36-7-1 with 4 KO losses including his last two in a row to Bob Foster and Ron Lyle. Yet Rondon went the 10 round distance with Shavers. It happens and it has a lot to do with styles. Stiverne kept a high guard all night and didn't throw many punches limiting the openings for Wilder.

Kovalev didn't stop BHop but I don't think that means Kovalev isn't a big puncher. GGG had a 5 fight stretch where he had 3 guys all go the 8 round distance with him. All 3 fighters had previously been stopped by others. That doesn't mean GGG can't punch hard as evidenced by his KO streak during the last 6+ years.

Exactly. Agustin Silva took out Kassim Ouma in 1 and Golovkin needed ten to do the same. What does it mean? Basically nothing. If Wilder doesn't hurt or drop any of his next ten opponents after he steps up, then sure, he's heavyweight Samuel Miller and his punching power isn't real. He had Stiverne in real trouble yesterday, he just wasn't able to close. That doesn't tell me a guy doesn't have power, it just tells me he's a wild finisher and rough offensively.

zorndeslammes wrote:

crusader wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote:Lennox Lewis couldn't stop, drop or even hurt glass-jawed bum Levi Billups in 10 rounds. The same Billups who was KO'ed 10 times in his career, most of the times early (including 3 first-round KO's). Lennox also couldn't stop, drop or hurt old cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio, who was demolished by Dokes and Holmes. Yet, nobody questions Lennox's power and rightfuly do. So WHY question Wilder's power if he couldn't KO world champion, who has never been knocked down?

Maybe because Stiverne was also his first top ten opponent? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that his opposition flattered his power and that still consistent with thinking he's a very good puncher.

The ref could easily have ruled that double leg takedown Stiverne did a knockdown, as he was obviously hurt and falling as a result of punches.

The ref should have ruled it a knockdown, but at least the judges got it right I believe. A double leg takedown? WTF is up with that? That kind of crap needs to be penalized. What if Wilder had hurt his leg during the "takedown"? Anything apparently goes with Weeks reffing.

zorndeslammes wrote:

Dennis wrote:Wilder has power. Even Wlad stated as much after using him as a sparring partner.

Earnie Shavers who is ranked as one of the hardest punchers of all time was 39-2 with 39 KOs when he faced Vicente Rondon who was 36-7-1 with 4 KO losses including his last two in a row to Bob Foster and Ron Lyle. Yet Rondon went the 10 round distance with Shavers. It happens and it has a lot to do with styles. Stiverne kept a high guard all night and didn't throw many punches limiting the openings for Wilder.

Kovalev didn't stop BHop but I don't think that means Kovalev isn't a big puncher. GGG had a 5 fight stretch where he had 3 guys all go the 8 round distance with him. All 3 fighters had previously been stopped by others. That doesn't mean GGG can't punch hard as evidenced by his KO streak during the last 6+ years.

Exactly. Agustin Silva took out Kassim Ouma in 1 and Golovkin needed ten to do the same. What does it mean? Basically nothing. If Wilder doesn't hurt or drop any of his next ten opponents after he steps up, then sure, he's heavyweight Samuel Miller and his punching power isn't real. He had Stiverne in real trouble yesterday, he just wasn't able to close. That doesn't tell me a guy doesn't have power, it just tells me he's a wild finisher and rough offensively.

Who is suggesting that Wilder doesn't have power? Talk about a strawman!

crusader wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:

Dennis wrote:Wilder has power. Even Wlad stated as much after using him as a sparring partner.

Earnie Shavers who is ranked as one of the hardest punchers of all time was 39-2 with 39 KOs when he faced Vicente Rondon who was 36-7-1 with 4 KO losses including his last two in a row to Bob Foster and Ron Lyle. Yet Rondon went the 10 round distance with Shavers. It happens and it has a lot to do with styles. Stiverne kept a high guard all night and didn't throw many punches limiting the openings for Wilder.

Kovalev didn't stop BHop but I don't think that means Kovalev isn't a big puncher. GGG had a 5 fight stretch where he had 3 guys all go the 8 round distance with him. All 3 fighters had previously been stopped by others. That doesn't mean GGG can't punch hard as evidenced by his KO streak during the last 6+ years.

Exactly. Agustin Silva took out Kassim Ouma in 1 and Golovkin needed ten to do the same. What does it mean? Basically nothing. If Wilder doesn't hurt or drop any of his next ten opponents after he steps up, then sure, he's heavyweight Samuel Miller and his punching power isn't real. He had Stiverne in real trouble yesterday, he just wasn't able to close. That doesn't tell me a guy doesn't have power, it just tells me he's a wild finisher and rough offensively.

Who is suggesting that Wilder doesn't have power? Talk about a strawman!

If his power was "exposed," what was it exposed as actually being from what was being fraudulently put forth?

Exposed as being exaggerated by his poor opposition and not quite as good as it was generally considered. Wilder has a 100 % KO ratio in non-world title bouts but a 0 % KO ratio in world title bouts and against consensus top ten opponents, and I think there is a strong basis for suspecting that his power was flattered by poor opposition even though he still seems to be an impressive puncher.

What OP wrote doesn't seem like a suggestion that Wilder has no power:

So Stiverne took a lot of big shots from Wilder today, and though he was shaken a couple of times he never ended up going down.

Do you think Wilder's power has been overrated because of the low quality opposition he has faced, or is Stiverne's chin just that good?

Badhusker wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:

crusader wrote:Maybe because Stiverne was also his first top ten opponent? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that his opposition flattered his power and that still consistent with thinking he's a very good puncher.

The ref could easily have ruled that double leg takedown Stiverne did a knockdown, as he was obviously hurt and falling as a result of punches.

The ref should have ruled it a knockdown, but at least the judges got it right I believe. A double leg takedown? WTF is up with that? That kind of crap needs to be penalized. What if Wilder had hurt his leg during the "takedown"? Anything apparently goes with Weeks reffing.

It's pretty non-standard to penalize the ol' knockdown takedown. I've seen this infraction many times, for instance in Jeff Lacy - Epi Mendoza. In Matias Vidondo vs Irineu Costa Junior, I'm pretty sure it occurred like 7 times. I actually don't recall seeing a single person lose a point for it. Not every foul is punished with equal seriousness.

No. It proves the opposite: Stiverne have an excellent chin - Demetrice King coudn't hurt him with clean bombs that hurt even from watching them.

Exposed as being exaggerated by his poor opposition and not quite as good as it was generally considered. Wilder has a 100 % KO ratio in non-world title bouts but a 0 % KO ratio in world title bouts and against consensus top ten opponents, and I think there is a strong basis for suspecting that his power was flattered by poor opposition even though he still seems to be an impressive puncher.

So instead of rating as a 10 out of 10 as a puncher, he ranks as a 9. EXPOSED!

Exposed may not be the best term, but it wasn't suggested that Wilder has no power so I'm not sure why you're using language that suggests it was, such as "He had Stiverne in real trouble yesterday, he just wasn't able to close. That doesn't tell me a guy doesn't have power".

And yes, if someone's power is a nine out of ten but they're depicted as a ten out of ten puncher their power is overrated.

crusader wrote:Exposed may not be the best term, but it wasn't suggested that Wilder has no power so I'm not sure why you're using language that suggests it was, such as "He had Stiverne in real trouble yesterday, he just wasn't able to close. That doesn't tell me a guy doesn't have power".

And yes, if someone's power is a nine out of ten but they're depicted as a ten out of ten puncher their power is overrated.

People don't say that someone is "exposed" or talk about them being overrated because of some minor fractional difference between perceived and actual realities. "Exposed" is in the title of this thread. You did see that, right?

I believe a fighter can improve in every facet of their game to get better has a fighter with hard work and dedication they can even improve their PUNCHING POWER BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY PUNCHING POWER IS A GOD GIVEN GIFT WILDER HAS IT,BIG PUNCHER'S SOMETIME'S STRUGGLE WHEN STEPPING UP IN CLASS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DON'T GET THE EARLY KO BUT WHAT WAS SURPRISING THOUGH WAS HOW EASILY THE KO ARTIST WON ON POINTS AND HIS BOXING ABILITY JAB/FOOTWORK/STAMINA WILL ONLY IMPROVE.

zorndeslammes wrote:

crusader wrote:Exposed may not be the best term, but it wasn't suggested that Wilder has no power so I'm not sure why you're using language that suggests it was, such as "He had Stiverne in real trouble yesterday, he just wasn't able to close. That doesn't tell me a guy doesn't have power".

And yes, if someone's power is a nine out of ten but they're depicted as a ten out of ten puncher their power is overrated.

People don't say that someone is "exposed" or talk about them being overrated because of some minor fractional difference between perceived and actual realities. "Exposed" is in the title of this thread. You did see that, right?

I mentioned the use of 'exposed' multiple times, which should make it obvious that I read the thread title. The thread starter hasn't stated specifically what they meant by that term, but given the rest of their post it seems clear to me that they're asking for opinions on whether Wilder's power was overrated and not whether he has any at all:

So Stiverne took a lot of big shots from Wilder today, and though he was shaken a couple of times he never ended up going down.

Do you think Wilder's power has been overrated because of the low quality opposition he has faced, or is Stiverne's chin just that good?

So there is an explicit inquiry as to whether Wilder's power was overrated or flattered due to his poor opposition, but nothing comparable about him totally lacking power nor any subsequent suggestion that he can't punch. The thread starter also acknowledges that Wilder rocked Stiverne multiple times, which seems incongruent with them questioning whether Wilder has any power whatsoever.

I think you've clearly built a strawman.

what people need to understand is that in the heavyweight division a lot of hast to do with weight, when considering punching power.

guys like (prime) samuel peter, david tua, big punchers, who I would consider 10 out of 10 in terms of power, all weight around 250.
wilder only weighs 219 pounds and considering that this is realy not much weight for a heavyweight he has tremendous power.
right now, he got like 9 out of 10. if he focuses a litle more on his punch, on his swing and technic how you perfectly put your body into a punch
and turn your hips and than puts some athletic extre muscle on your shoulders, than he can easily turn into a 10 power puncher.
talentwise, he was born with great power. so say he is overrated, just because he didnt ko a guy is nonsense.
prime tua went the distance with a nobody in sean hart, so because he didnt ko him now he has no world class power?
prime denis boytosv went the distance with a nobody in fernely feliz, so therefore denis has no tremendous power?
if an opponent got a solid defence and is body is build strong and on top he got a big neck and good chin, than even the best puncher in
the world has troubles to get the tko or ko. stiverne had an good defence and was hiding a lot behind his guard, also stiverne is build big
and realy has a quality chin. enough.

crusader wrote:
I think you've clearly built a strawman.

The original poster used a term that has almost universal understanding in the boxing community and a dictionary definition. *You* are the one wanting to redirect this into being a discussion of semantics because, I suppose, that makes for a path in which we can say he was "exposed" without looking totally ridiculous.