BoxRec

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 11:56**

tiny_acres wrote:A very good 210 pound man can not defeat a great 245 pound man.
I would like to see it another way but I can't.
The cruserweight division is just right at 200 pounds in my opinion.

So far there have only been 3 great 245 LBS fighters: Lennox Lewis and 2 men with the same Mom. Whether Fury will be great remains to be seen. Whether a 245 LBS Fury could beat a 218 LBS Wilder also remains to be seen. How the Klits would have done against a 210-220 Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Holyfield is of course speculation.

I agree on your cruiser limit of 200. It should be interesting to see if the future great HWs will be closer to 245 or perhaps a 217 Joe Parker.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 13:16**

ikorolev wrote:That's why a 190-220/215/210 division could benefit smaller heavyweights.

That idea is not without logic. Only that I am against further diluting division. Quite opposite they need to be consolidated.

Blodhemn wrote:Yeah.. that's not a good example, yet Cunningham still dropped Fury...

Dont get hung on who dropped who. lol. Middleweight can drop a heavy weight if he lands clean. Point I am making is that Cunningham despite outboxing Fury was beaten purely on size advantage, he was pushed around like a baby. You will see it if you watch the fight past the knockdown.

tiny_acres wrote:A very good 210 pound man can not defeat a great 245 pound man.

Noone is going to be 210. People "naturaly" around 220 will be able to make 210 easily. HW will start at around 225, which is how it is anyway. 210 is better limit then 200 for CW.

dominik wrote:MW: 160
SMW: 168 (+8)
LHW: 180 (+12)
CW: 200 (+20)

The simplest solution for the immediate problems.

. And BTW thanks for quoting me bro. :)

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 13:42**

Tarkus wrote:That idea is not without logic. Only that I am against further diluting division. Quite opposite they need to be consolidated.

Generally I'd agree except that's more a problem with the lower weights, i.e. we don't really need 105, 108, 112, 115, and 118. At least 2 of those classes could be eliminated, not to mention most of the "junior/super" weights across the board. I actually think this could improve competition at the lower weights quite a bit since the depth of talent in divisions under 126 is often lacking, especially down at 105/108.

So ideally I would have something like this:

107
112
118
126
135
147
160
175
195
HW

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 13:43**

fergusg wrote: Therefore, why don’t we maintain the status quo, but introduce a new weight class that has a weight range of 201lbs to 220lbs (between cruiserweight and heavyweight).

It seems unfair that there are small 210lb heavyweights, like Eddie Chambers, David Haye, Steve Cunningham & Jean Marc Mormeck, having to face a near 250lb Wladimir Klitschko.

There's really no need for this. Any 210 pound HW can fight at CW if they want to. They don't because of the increased prestige and money associated with the HW division.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 13:54**

jujigatame wrote:
Tarkus wrote:That idea is not without logic. Only that I am against further diluting division. Quite opposite they need to be consolidated.
Generally I'd agree except that's more a problem with the lower weights, i.e. we don't really need 105, 108, 112, 115, and 118. At least 2 of those classes could be eliminated, not to mention most of the "junior/super" weights across the board. I actually think this could improve competition at the lower weights quite a bit since the depth of talent in divisions under 126 is often lacking, especially down at 105/108.

So ideally I would have something like this:

107
112
118
126
135
147
160
175
195
HW

I like these weights. About what I would have, with the only caveat being do we really need a 107 division? The super/light divisions must go away !

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 14:01**

Having somebody who can't make 147 anymore fight at 160 is pretty cruel. The same with jumping from 160 to 175. Can you imagine Porter fighting Golovkin/Lemieux/Quillin or Rubio fighting Kovalev/Stevenson/Beterbiev ?

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 14:07**

I just made 107 because it seemed like a reasonable way of combining the undermanned 105 and 108 divisions. Maybe we could just do away with them altogether but I feel some super tiny guys like Finito and Calderon might have been undersized even for 112.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 14:26**

ikorolev wrote:Having somebody who can't make 147 anymore fight at 160 is pretty cruel. The same with jumping from 160 to 175. Can you imagine Porter fighting Golovkin/Lemieux/Quillin or Rubio fighting Kovalev/Stevenson/Beterbiev ?

I don't agree with that. If he can't make 147 for a weigh-in, he is walking around @ at least like 153-154. So if a fighter at 153 can't beat a fighter at 160, I don't think weight is the reason.

I can imagine Porter beating Lemieux. Not beating GGG, but because GGG is simply better.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 14:27**

ikorolev wrote:Having somebody who can't make 147 anymore fight at 160 is pretty cruel. The same with jumping from 160 to 175. Can you imagine Porter fighting Golovkin/Lemieux/Quillin or Rubio fighting Kovalev/Stevenson/Beterbiev ?

Maybe, but the alternative is to chuck the whole thing and just use something similar to MMA weight classes instead. The whole 140-147-154-160-168-175 progression really makes little to no sense.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 14:29**

Tony1244 wrote:
I don't agree with that. If he can't make 147 for a weigh-in, he is walking around @ at least like 153-154. So if a fighter at 153 can't beat a fighter at 160, I don't think weight is the reason.

I can imagine Porter beating Lemieux. Not beating GGG, but because GGG is simply better.

If a guy can't make 147 he's probably more like 165. That's what Canelo weighed when he was ostensibly still a welterweight but was constantly fighting at catchweights a few pounds above the limit.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 14:52**

ikorolev wrote:Having somebody who can't make 147 anymore fight at 160 is pretty cruel. The same with jumping from 160 to 175. Can you imagine Porter fighting Golovkin/Lemieux/Quillin or Rubio fighting Kovalev/Stevenson/Beterbiev ?

Sh!t you could say the same today. There is surely some guy who's ideal weight is 143lbs but he can't get to 140lbs or 147lbs or 187lbs but he can't get to 175lbs or 200lbs without being at a disadvantage. Therefore we should create 143lb & 187lb divisions for them & guys like them? Then if you do that some asshole who's ideal weight is 141.5lbs or 181lbs or some such sh!t will pop up. Obviously the dynamics change whatever you do so :( for Shawn or Rubio if something like that went down & :( for those guys who exist today whos ideal weight is 143lbs & 187lbs.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 15:09**

jujigatame wrote:
Tony1244 wrote:
I don't agree with that. If he can't make 147 for a weigh-in, he is walking around @ at least like 153-154. So if a fighter at 153 can't beat a fighter at 160, I don't think weight is the reason.

I can imagine Porter beating Lemieux. Not beating GGG, but because GGG is simply better.
If a guy can't make 147 he's probably more like 165. That's what Canelo weighed when he was ostensibly still a welterweight but was constantly fighting at catchweights a few pounds above the limit.

... and some of MW guys walk at 178. The same 13-pound difference.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 15:11**

ReggieDiggs wrote:
ikorolev wrote:Having somebody who can't make 147 anymore fight at 160 is pretty cruel. The same with jumping from 160 to 175. Can you imagine Porter fighting Golovkin/Lemieux/Quillin or Rubio fighting Kovalev/Stevenson/Beterbiev ?
Sh!t you could say the same today. There is surely some guy who's ideal weight is 143lbs but he can't get to 140lbs or 147lbs or 187lbs but he can't get to 175lbs or 200lbs without being at a disadvantage. Therefore we should create 143lb & 187lb divisions for them & guys like them? Then if you do that some asshole who's ideal weight is 141.5lbs or 181lbs or some such sh!t will pop up. Obviously the dynamics change whatever you do so :( for Shawn or Rubio if something like that went down & :( for those guys who exist today whos ideal weight is 143lbs & 187lbs.

So, you don't see a difference between fighting a guy who is 7-8 pounds bigger than you and fighting a guy who is 13-15 pounds bigger ?

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 15:40**

fergusg wrote:Let’s try and simplify things…

I’ve already established that the average weight of a Wladimir Klitschko heavyweight title challenger is 239lbs.

Therefore, there seems to be a huge void of world-class heavyweight fighters that regularly weigh less than 220lbs.

Deontay Wilder may have weighed only 219lbs against Bermane Stiverne, but this was an anomaly, because his average weight is 226lbs.

Therefore, why don’t we maintain the status quo, but introduce a new weight class that has a weight range of 201lbs to 220lbs (between cruiserweight and heavyweight).

It seems unfair that there are small 210lb heavyweights, like Eddie Chambers, David Haye, Steve Cunningham & Jean Marc Mormeck, having to face a near 250lb Wladimir Klitschko.

many of the klit challengers would have weighed 220 if they weren't fat.

also nobody was forcing chambers, haye, cunningham and mormeck to fight in HW, each of them could have easily made CW. that was the idea behind lifting the CW to 200: giving all those 195-210 lb fighters a weight class to fight in.

a 210 pound fighter will indeed have a hard time but he still has two choices:
1. packing on some muscles and fight at 220 (haye actually weighed 222 against ruiz but chose to go down to 210 again against klit)
2. going down to CW

as someone said there only have been 3 true all time greats above 245: lennox and two klits (foreman and bowe later weighed 240+ too but then they were fat)

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 16:39**

If a guy can't make 147 he's probably more like 165. That's what Canelo weighed when he was ostensibly still a welterweight but was constantly fighting at catchweights a few pounds above the limit.[/quote]jujigatame

Even more of a reason to have no jr/super weight classes.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 17:13**

There is already a petty decent system used in Olympic boxing with 10 classes. Based on that I came up with this:

110 Min
115 Fly
122 Bantam
130 Feather
140 Light
152 Welter
165 Mid
180 ???
200 Cruiser
200+ Heavy

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 17:48**

ikorolev wrote:
ReggieDiggs wrote:
ikorolev wrote:Having somebody who can't make 147 anymore fight at 160 is pretty cruel. The same with jumping from 160 to 175. Can you imagine Porter fighting Golovkin/Lemieux/Quillin or Rubio fighting Kovalev/Stevenson/Beterbiev ?
Sh!t you could say the same today. There is surely some guy who's ideal weight is 143lbs but he can't get to 140lbs or 147lbs or 187lbs but he can't get to 175lbs or 200lbs without being at a disadvantage. Therefore we should create 143lb & 187lb divisions for them & guys like them? Then if you do that some asshole who's ideal weight is 141.5lbs or 181lbs or some such sh!t will pop up. Obviously the dynamics change whatever you do so :( for Shawn or Rubio if something like that went down & :( for those guys who exist today whos ideal weight is 143lbs & 187lbs.
So, you don't see a difference between fighting a guy who is 7-8 pounds bigger than you and fighting a guy who is 13-15 pounds bigger ?

Yea. You don't see the difference for guys in between the current divisions too? All I'm saying is there is gonna be issues whatever you decide upon weight division wise unless you got a weight division at every lb or every other lb. I mean you can always make it more ideal or less problematic.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 17:55**

Tarkus wrote:There is already a petty decent system used in Olympic boxing with 10 classes. Based on that I came up with this:

110 Min
115 Fly
122 Bantam
130 Feather
140 Light
152 Welter
165 Mid
180 ???
200 Cruiser
200+ Heavy

I like this but I hate the seemingly random divisions (122, 152). If a division doesn't end in a 0 it should end in a 5. I think the UFC gots the best divisions & I suspect if somehow MMA had evolved into a worldwide sport before boxing, boxing would have better, more sensical divisions too learning off of MMA's failure with nutty ass random divisions like 147, 168, 122, etc.

I'm not a fan of any unlimited division. I think its undisputable there is a advantage to weight. I mean thats why we got the divisions to begin with obviously. But somehow if you're over 200lbs that advantage isn't there or there are no f#cks given about that advantage. Thats stupid. If commissions/abc orgs. really cared about boxers there'd be no unlimited limit on any division.

Posted: **26 Jan 2015, 19:42**

It is opposite of random. Its derived from the idea that larger the fighters become less the significance of size difference according to the principle of diminishing returns. Therefore gaps increase gradually as weights get higher.

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Posted: **27 Jan 2015, 00:38**

Looking On wrote:a lot of the independant / semi pro/ white collar / unlicensed (whatever you wish to call them) in UK have adopted dropping cruiserweight to a 14st (196lb) limit and adding a super cruiserweight division with a 15st (210lb limit) limit.
Maybe something similar would be good in the pro game

Thanks for your quote but very silly independent boxing people in the UK. It's a dumb idea.

Posted: **27 Jan 2015, 03:58**

Tarkus wrote:It is opposite of random. Its derived from the idea that larger the fighters become less the significance of size difference according to the principle of diminishing returns. Therefore gaps increase gradually as weights get higher.

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And I'd agree with that less significant line of thought (whatever the limits are whether speculative divisions or the current divisions). I just don't believe that a unlimited weight limit at HW keeps with that logic is what I'm saying.

Posted: **27 Jan 2015, 04:44**

fergusg wrote:Let’s try and simplify things…

I’ve already established that the average weight of a Wladimir Klitschko heavyweight title challenger is 239lbs.

Therefore, there seems to be a huge void of world-class heavyweight fighters that regularly weigh less than 220lbs.

Deontay Wilder may have weighed only 219lbs against Bermane Stiverne, but this was an anomaly, because his average weight is 226lbs.

Therefore, why don’t we maintain the status quo, but introduce a new weight class that has a weight range of 201lbs to 220lbs (between cruiserweight and heavyweight).

It seems unfair that there are small 210lb heavyweights, like Eddie Chambers, David Haye, Steve Cunningham & Jean Marc Mormeck, having to face a near 250lb Wladimir Klitschko.

Chambers, Haye, Cunningham and Mormeck only ever fought at heavyweight for the money - they could all have stayed at cruiserweight forever if they wanted to. However, Haye was good enough to win a belt at heavyweight and give Wlad his most competitive (however dull) fight since Tony Thompson. Chambers who is probably the smallest of the lot, managed to widely beat (ignore the judge who scored it a draw) and knock down the huge Dimitrenko.

If a guy can't make cruiserweight, then he probably walks around at close to 220lb and could bulk up to 230lb if he thought it would be advantageous. There's simply no need for a division between cruiser and heavyweight.

Posted: **27 Jan 2015, 10:13**

ReggieDiggs wrote:I'm not a fan of any unlimited division. I think its undisputable there is a advantage to weight. I mean thats why we got the divisions to begin with obviously. But somehow if you're over 200lbs that advantage isn't there or there are no f#cks given about that advantage. Thats stupid. If commissions/abc orgs. really cared about boxers there'd be no unlimited limit on any division.

I actually think that beyond about 240 there is actually a DISadvantage to weight. In both MMA and boxing, the best HWs are rarely bigger than about 250.

Posted: **31 Jan 2015, 02:39**

ReggieDiggs wrote:I like the 200lb limit. And I always hated the 190lb limit. For whatever reason a HW always started at 200lbs for me anyway, unofficially obviously.

Hell personally I'd rather see some of the lower divisions killed as its overkill already. MMA does things right with weight divisions imho. Although they don't got a history with random numbered divisions like 122 & 147 so they can not give any f#cks with rounding up 147lbs cuz 147lbs don't make no kind of sense. The UFC gots 9 divisions that are actually active divisions (females & male).

265lbs - Heavyweight
205lbs - Light Heavyweight
185lbs - Middleweight
170lbs - Welterweight
155lbs - Lightweight
145lbs - Featherweight
135lbs - Bantamweight
125lbs - Flyweight
115lbs - Strawweight

I wish boxing would do something like this. No one gives a f#ck about the 200 guys fighting at 105. Lets combine those smaller divisions so we got some better competition at the top & so you gotta be better than a thousand guys instead of 200 guys or w/e.

Not too sound cynical, but if they lessen the weight classes, we will no longer have "Abe Adams is a champion in six weightclasses." type of marketing anymore.

Plus, why does there need to be a ceiling for heavyweights?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n79wBw_LJ9Y

Posted: **31 Jan 2015, 13:54**

You
Lets get with modern times and modern humans.

236lbs - Super-Heavyweight
206lbs - Heavyweight
191lbs - Cruiserweight
178lbs - Light Heavyweight
166lbs - Middleweight
155lbs - Super-Welterweight
145lbs - Welterweight
136lbs - Lightweight
128lbs - Featherweight
121lbs - Super-Bantamweight
115lbs - Bantamweight
110lbs - Flyweight

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