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Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:19
by silkov
AlexY2K4 wrote:I think Calzaghe is a fool for blowing this, but I don't particually like Johnson either.
I know he has been ripped off plenty of times, but to me, he seems like a bitter, grumpy old fart and winning that IBF title has really done to his head.
People say how likeable he is, but I see nothing likeable about him.
You can't blame Johnson for wanting to cash in on his title rather and wait around for Joe to sort his head out!. Remember, Johnson has a family to feed and hasn't been spoon fed like Calzaghe has for years..... Johnson is getting on and probably knows that his time at the top will be short.... if he can get a big payday vs Jones good on him! Calzaghe and Warren are reaping their just rewards!!!.... 8)
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:20
by jamesmcdonnell
Right, so he was good enough to beat Gonzalez, who was good enough to beat Michaelszewski, even though he didn't get the decision. He ran Ottke close enough for some people to feel he deserved the decision, he blatantly beat Sheika and Daniel Judah, and blatantly beat Woods in both fights despite the results.
It's all a matter of opinion, but It would seem clear that Johnson is a world class operator to me, he's a very solid all around technician, I don't think he would beat Tarver or Jones, but that doesn't mean he isn't world class, world class means you are good enough to compete on even terms with the best, and Johnson has proven that much.
What's your definition of world class.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:21
by silkov
jamesmcdonnell wrote:There's some real bollocks being talked here.
Of course Johnson's bitter, he's spent his entire career fighting in his opponent's back yard and getting ripped off, and at the age of 35, he doesn't have time to waste whilst fights get rescheduled. At the end of the day, it is Johnson, not Calzaghe who is the belt holder, Calzaghe has only a minor belt, whilst Johnson has a legitimate title belt which he won fair and square.
The first Johnson v Woods fight was a rip-off, I spoke to one of Clinton Woods' mates at the 2nd fight just before the rematch, and he said that Clinton had even admitted in the dressing room afterward that he didn't deserve the draw....
I can totally understand why Johnson wants to just get on with it, and a fight against Jones would more than likely make him a very nice payday. Jones wants a belt so he can try and get parity with Tarver who is striking a hard bargain for a rematch, and it would make their fight a unification battle to boot.
To assert that Johnson isn't world class is doing him a disservice, he's fought a higher level of opposition than Calzaghe, and most of his losses were controversial or close decisions against the best men out there.
I am not saying he's a great fighter, but he is definetly world class, if he isn't, then ask yourself this, what has Calzaghe done to prove he is a GREAT fighter, answer, nothing. He's only fought three good opponents in Eubank, Mitchell and Brewer, and was dropped by Mitchell, and held to points by Brewer. Eubank was past his best and was a late replacement, and for me that remains Calzaghe's best performance.
Calzaghe may yet turn out to be great, but he has yet to prove it, but Johnson has certainly proven himself world class.
Good point James, Calzaghe and Warren are acting as if it is Calzaghes title not Johnsons...... the pair of them make me sick!!!
8)
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:27
by silkov
Matchfixer wrote:Very little on Johnson's record to remotely suggest he is world class and certainly nothing in the way he fights.
You're having a laugh aren't you??.... if theres little on Johnsons record to show he's world class what is there on Joes record to show he's world class???..... wins over Brewer, Mitchell and Eubank?.... all past their best and ready to be taken?. Johnson has faced a far stronger level of opposition than Joe 'Cotton Wool' Calzaghe!.....
8)
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:34
by Matchfixer
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Right, so he was good enough to beat Gonzalez, who was good enough to beat Michaelszewski, even though he didn't get the decision. He ran Ottke close enough for some people to feel he deserved the decision, he blatantly beat Sheika and Daniel Judah, and blatantly beat Woods in both fights despite the results.
It's all a matter of opinion, but It would seem clear that Johnson is a world class operator to me, he's a very solid all around technician, I don't think he would beat Tarver or Jones, but that doesn't mean he isn't world class, world class means you are good enough to compete on even terms with the best, and Johnson has proven that much.
What's your definition of world class.
I thought he lost to Gonzalez. Must be my memory playing tricks on me.
Many people have ran Ottke close and more.
Omar Sheika is not that great. Ditto Woods as much as I like him.
My definition of world class is someone who is clearly a level above the majority of the rest of division. Using this logic I feel Johnson is a very good fighter but not world class.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:35
by Matchfixer
silkov wrote:Matchfixer wrote:Very little on Johnson's record to remotely suggest he is world class and certainly nothing in the way he fights.
You're having a laugh aren't you??.... if theres little on Johnsons record to show he's world class what is there on Joes record to show he's world class???..... wins over Brewer, Mitchell and Eubank?.... all past their best and ready to be taken?. Johnson has faced a far stronger level of opposition than Joe 'Cotton Wool' Calzaghe!.....
8)
I agree. I have not suggested Calzaghe is world class. He has yet to prove it.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:44
by Coconut
Matchfixer wrote:jamesmcdonnell wrote:Right, so he was good enough to beat Gonzalez, who was good enough to beat Michaelszewski, even though he didn't get the decision. He ran Ottke close enough for some people to feel he deserved the decision, he blatantly beat Sheika and Daniel Judah, and blatantly beat Woods in both fights despite the results.
It's all a matter of opinion, but It would seem clear that Johnson is a world class operator to me, he's a very solid all around technician, I don't think he would beat Tarver or Jones, but that doesn't mean he isn't world class, world class means you are good enough to compete on even terms with the best, and Johnson has proven that much.
What's your definition of world class.
I thought he lost to Gonzalez. Must be my memory playing tricks on me.
Many people have ran Ottke close and more.
Omar Sheika is not that great. Ditto Woods as much as I like him.
My definition of world class is someone who is clearly a level above the majority of the rest of division. Using this logic I feel Johnson is a very good fighter but not world class.
I agree with James. Matchfixer, your definition sounds like a P4P definition. I would define world class as being able to give a good fight to a world champion. Not a P4P number 1, but a regular world champion, such as Ottke. The fact that he can take on and compete with guys who are ranked top 5 and 10 in unbiased rankings says that he can cope with the best in the world at his weight, and so he's world class.
On a separate note, my gran could have beat the DM that showed up against Gonzalez.
But yes, Johnson is a top 5 at worst light heavy, he's beaten world champions, he's world class at his weight category, but he's not a pound for pound consideration.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 07:49
by MightyWarrior
Of course Calzaghe is world class - he's been at the top of the 1681b division for years now, ducked no-one and beaten some world class fighters too - even if it's for the low rent WBO title - that's makes him world class.
If he isn't, who's world class at super middle then, no-one?
Johnson's world title is not exactly "real" either - he's just another belt holder really, not even the best light heavyweight in the world.
He won a vacant title beating Woods, who probably didn't even deserve a shot in the first place.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 08:39
by Chris the fighter
Calzaghe is probably the closest to world class in Britain I would say. Himself and Ottke fought a lot of the same oppostion including Tocker Pudwill, Mitchell, Brewer, Reid, Starie and Rick Thornberry and on the whole Calzaghe beat these guys better then Ottke. Calzaghe may have had a so called "minor" title while Ottke had two "major" ones (not much differience between these titles in my view) but he was more world class I think then Ottke, Beyer or any other belt holders. But I would say that he did not help his cause by fighting some of the guys he did.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 09:55
by Matchfixer
Coconut wrote:
I agree with James. Matchfixer, your definition sounds like a P4P definition. I would define world class as being able to give a good fight to a world champion. Not a P4P number 1, but a regular world champion, such as Ottke. The fact that he can take on and compete with guys who are ranked top 5 and 10 in unbiased rankings says that he can cope with the best in the world at his weight, and so he's world class.
But yes, Johnson is a top 5 at worst light heavy, he's beaten world champions, he's world class at his weight category, but he's not a pound for pound consideration.
I always thought P4P implied the best boxer over all divisions, i.e, take out weight as a factor.
I don't think being able to give a world champion a good fight necessarily means you are world class. Depends on the champion for starters. Also, it could be a one-off performance form either side, i.e, poor from world champion and challenger who excels themselves.
Just because someone can only 'cope' with the best 10 ten in the world does not mean they are world class. I would hesitate to call Lamon Brewster world class for example.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:14
by {amateur}
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Right, so he was good enough to beat Gonzalez, who was good enough to beat Michaelszewski, even though he didn't get the decision. He ran Ottke close enough for some people to feel he deserved the decision, he blatantly beat Sheika and Daniel Judah, and blatantly beat Woods in both fights despite the results.
It's all a matter of opinion, but It would seem clear that Johnson is a world class operator to me, he's a very solid all around technician, I don't think he would beat Tarver or Jones, but that doesn't mean he isn't world class, world class means you are good enough to compete on even terms with the best, and Johnson has proven that much.
What's your definition of world class.
I had Ottke ahead by 3-4 rounds can't member.
The 1st Woods fight was extremely close by no means a whitewash.
And as someone else already said DM looked like shit against Gonzalez.
I like Johnson, I think he is very much world class. Even though I discredited his accomplishmnts.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:15
by jamesmcdonnell
I would say that both are world class, Calzaghe more proven as being a cut above, but neither of them are great....
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:25
by DG.
Stick it to them Glen !
Serves them right !
RJJ would,imo- pay more than whatever Fwank offered - RJ needs the belt and though Johnson would lose - he would get more money and RJJ can use the belt for a Tarver triolgy !
Bad back ?.... My arse !
Ha - f-uck in ha !
Stick it to them Glen !
Calzaghe Vs Ytfiyfb HGzio ( Who ? - I made him up ! )..
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:27
by The Gaffer
I agree, but it depends on your view of what world class is.
Just like Gordon Strachan saying Ballack isn't world class last night.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:44
by AlexY2K4
Well, I never said Calzaghe was great, but he could very well turn out to be as long as he gets the proper fights.
I still don't like Johnson though, and I really hope Calzaghe beats him up badly if they ever fight.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:46
by jamesmcdonnell
What the hell have you got against Johnson? Christ, the poor geezer, he's been plying his trade all over the world for years, ever since losing early on the Hopkins, has been shafted more times than Jordan, and has hung in there to get a title at the age of 35, bloody hell mate, have a heart.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 10:48
by knockout artist
AlexY2K4 wrote:Well, I never said Calzaghe was great, but he could very well turn out to be as long as he gets the proper fights.
I still don't like Johnson though, and I really hope Calzaghe beats him up badly if they ever fight.
Have you ever met Johnson?
He's one of the nicest guys you could meet. A real gent.
I dont think Calzaghe will ever turn out to be a great fighter.
We have seen the best he hs to offer.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 11:18
by jamesmcdonnell
I must admit that was the impression i got of him too, though not yet had the pleasure of meeting him, he strikes me as being the epitome of the humble road warrior...
I think Johnson's story is something of an inspiration to thousands of boxers who feel they are never going to get their break.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 11:35
by knockout artist
jamesmcdonnell wrote:I must admit that was the impression i got of him too, though not yet had the pleasure of meeting him, he strikes me as being the epitome of the humble road warrior...
I think Johnson's story is something of an inspiration to thousands of boxers who feel they are never going to get their break.
I had a drink with Johnson in the hotel after Woods I. He was drinking Red Bull and me Guinness.
I told him I felt he won the fight and he said thanks, I really appreciate it.
He said he was used to getting bad decisions.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 11:39
by bennie
Glen Johnson is someone who seems to have come straight out the 1950's: the golden era of boxing. He's got all the moves, all the punches, all the humility. He trained properly for the Calzaghe fight like the great pro he is and, seven days before the fight, Calzaghe pulls out. Small wonder he's angry. He must regard Calzaghe as a complete amateur.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 13:11
by Eric the Viking
Compare Johnson's last 20 opponents with Calzaghe's - the disparity in quality is simply massive. Then realize that the only guy who ever beat Johnson soundly was Bernard Hopkins and nearly all of his other losses were very close and/or disputed and the only reasonable conclusion is that he's very much a world-class guy, i.e. longtime top contender. I'll take a record of top opposition with some losses like Johnson's over Calzage's phony padded re'sume' any day of the week. Johnson has some losses, but at least been consistently testing himself against top guys, which is way more than Calzaghe can say.
In his last 12 fights, Johnson:
- Lost a razor-close decision to a still-close-to-his-prime Ottke in Germany;
- Got robbed in decision losses to Vanderpool, Branco and Sheika (all top guys);
- In his first fight at light-heavy blasted out Thomas Ulrich;
- Lost very close decisions to top light-heavyweight contenders Harmon and Gonzalez;
- By all accounts beat Daniel Judah but was robbed by way of a draw;
- Impressively beat light-heavyweight contender Harding;
- By all accounts beat Woods but was robbed by way of a draw;
- Clearly beat Woods in a rematch.
That is not world-class?
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 14:32
by Matchfixer
Eric the Viking wrote:
In his last 12 fights, Johnson:
- Lost a razor-close decision to a still-close-to-his-prime Ottke in Germany;
- Got robbed in decision losses to Vanderpool, Branco and Sheika (all top guys);
- In his first fight at light-heavy blasted out Thomas Ulrich;
- Lost very close decisions to top light-heavyweight contenders Harmon and Gonzalez;
- By all accounts beat Daniel Judah but was robbed by way of a draw;
- Impressively beat light-heavyweight contender Harding;
- By all accounts beat Woods but was robbed by way of a draw;
- Clearly beat Woods in a rematch.
That is not world-class?
Correct.
Wouldn't ever call Sheika a top guy.
Ulrich is an average performer. Woods is good but not quite good enough.
I assume this is the same Derrick Harmon who recently turned down the opportunity for a beating from David Haye.
Actually beating some of these guys would help his case but the records show otherwise.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 14:55
by silkov
AlexY2K4 wrote:Well, I never said Calzaghe was great, but he could very well turn out to be as long as he gets the proper fights.
I still don't like Johnson though, and I really hope Calzaghe beats him up badly if they ever fight.
Whats your problem with Johnson?.... just because he refuses to dance to 'Golden boy' Calzaghes tune?........ remember it was Calzaghe that pulled out of the fight with his 'back injury!'
.....not Johnson!. Joe should be thankful that Johnson was giving him a shot and if Glencoffe now goes elsewhere I say good on him!.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 14:58
by silkov
AlexY2K4 wrote:Well, I never said Calzaghe was great, but he could very well turn out to be as long as he gets the proper fights.
I still don't like Johnson though, and I really hope Calzaghe beats him up badly if they ever fight.
Your comment that you hope Calzaghe beats Johnson up badly is pathetic to be honest mate!.... perhaps you should switch to watching WWF Wreastling!.
Posted: 16 Jun 2004, 15:20
by AlexY2K4
silkov wrote:AlexY2K4 wrote:Well, I never said Calzaghe was great, but he could very well turn out to be as long as he gets the proper fights.
I still don't like Johnson though, and I really hope Calzaghe beats him up badly if they ever fight.
Your comment that you hope Calzaghe beats Johnson up badly is pathetic to be honest mate!.... perhaps you should switch to watching WWF Wreastling!.
Pathetic!? Don't tell me that they are in this sport to tickle each other and have tea partys in little wendy houses!
Get real dude, in this sport they hurt each other and that is what I want Calzaghe to do to Johnson.
I don't like Johnson and I hope he gets smashed, if you have an issue with that, that's your problem.