BoxRec

Lennox wrote:Reggie I side with Galen on this one. If someone can last the rounds the loss does not matter what there record is. I side with you if that the licence should be withdrawn if he keeps getting stopped.

These 2-21-3 guys are the backbone, they offer a great 'red corner' for the blue to learn from, equally someone 14-0 should not be feasting on them, though sometimes an opponent falls thru and these guys show up to complete the card.

As long as they don't get hurt its ok.

we cant see the future.......they should no be allowed to put a 14-0 dude in with a 2-23 guy ever. 2-23 guys if they r going to be allowed to fight need to be put in with guys make their debuts or guys with similar records.

being a punching bag for the full fight shouldn't be allowed also.

ReggieDiggs wrote:

Kingfield wrote:It is quite obvious from your posts on this thread that you don't really 'get' the role of journeymen in boxing.

You see some of them could win their bouts (some do win but still don;t get the W against the home fighter/prospect), which are usually against up and coming undefeated fighters, but then they won't get fights against other fighters. Usually they're not big ticket sellers and don't have a big following so the promoters are not bothered about putting them on or getting behind them.

If you dont have a promoter who will back you because you can't sell enough tickets to line their pockets, but you still love the sport and want to be involved, maybe because it's all you've wanted since being a kid then taking to the road, boxing clever and helping a prospect get rounds whilst teaching them a few lessons is in all while picking up a few £££ is imo a respectable thing.

I was there Friday Kas, good result and performance.

I understand the journeymen role, in this case I wouldn't call it a journeymen role though. A journeyman would be winning more fights. I'd also suggest that a guy on this level like this cat vs pro debut & under 10 fight kinda guys isn't a needed role in the sport or boxing would be lost without.

And if these guys are losing on purpose or just not trying to win (as I believe we both know is a fact often enough) I'd say thats kinda like fixing a fight. I mean it is fixing a fight, but on a eye wink sorta level. This is a whole other subject though.

Like I said my main issue here isn't hating on anyone or not understanding their role for the allegedly greater good of the sport. I'm a fan who wants a better quality of product & I think most fans who'd go to a fight would rather see two guys with winning records fighting each other & trying to actually win & being capable of winning or even two guys with losing records fighting each other & trying to actually win & being capable of winning than the 18-0 guy who's trying to win vs the 4-17 guy who's just in there for a check & isn't really trying to win the fight.

A journeyman is not put in there to win the fight. I'm not sure what your experience is with novices, small hall events or the prospects side of boxing, and to be completely honest up until about 5 years ago when i became heavily involved in working with boxers i too thought like you, in that every boxer should go out to win every fight. But the reality is young fighters have to sell tickets to make the promoters money, they also can't go knocking all their opponent out early on as then no journeyman will want to fight them, so yes quite often they will hold back. On the flipside if a journeyman all of a sudden starts to ko prospects then no promoter is going to pick up the phone and book them to come and possibly beat their up and coming very good ticket seller.

It's just how the sport is at the bottom. Prospects need rounds and experience, the journeymen know their role and take their money and help the sport. Promoters protect their cash cows at every level from world title contenders to local small hall shows.

I "think" what reggie is getting at is a dude that isn't winning at all. A dude thats 1-23, no it doesn't help the argument that while we're arguing he actually wins. The dude is 2-23, that aint cool, and its been said he goes the distance which leads me to believe he's a punching bag. We're talking about the safety of the boxer and ur talking about the promotion and the headache matchmakers go through.

Really as a paying fan I do not want and should not have to watch a guy thats 2 - 23 or worse. Ive seen a lot worse.

Kingfield wrote:A journeyman is not put in there to win the fight. I'm not sure what your experience is with novices, small hall events or the prospects side of boxing, and to be completely honest up until about 5 years ago when i became heavily involved in working with boxers i too thought like you, in that every boxer should go out to win every fight. But the reality is young fighters have to sell tickets to make the promoters money, they also can't go knocking all their opponent out early on as then no journeyman will want to fight them, so yes quite often they will hold back. On the flipside if a journeyman all of a sudden starts to ko prospects then no promoter is going to pick up the phone and book them to come and possibly beat their up and coming very good ticket seller.

It's just how the sport is at the bottom. Prospects need rounds and experience, the journeymen know their role and take their money and help the sport. Promoters protect their cash cows at every level from world title contenders to local small hall shows.

I understand you are dealing with the realities of the sport as it is & I'm talking in theory more as I'd like to see it than the reality, but I believe my theory is WAY better for the sport if it was the reality. In fact I don't see how two guys coming to win instead of one guy coming to win ISN'T better for the sport on every level.

You create stronger fighters with this going on. You create more fans by putting on more competitive fights. Ideally you'd stop all this record masturbating fans are doing as more good to exceptional fighters would have some more L's on their record. There'd be less figments of their promoters imagination & bank account going on at the top of the sport.

And lets quit bsing about all this "needing rounds" talk. That isn't whats happening. Its a building of a product, the fighter, that will be cashed out at some higher level more often then we are building up the next Floyd or Manny or a top ten guy by fighting some guy who's 2-23 or its some sorta backbone that has to start at this level. The fighter is being fattened up for sale at the market basically lol. You can start the "bottom" of the sport with guys trying to actually win. This reality hurts the sports legitimacy more than it helps anything.

hurricanemitch14 wrote:I "think" what reggie is getting at is a dude that isn't winning at all. A dude thats 1-23, no it doesn't help the argument that while we're arguing he actually wins. The dude is 2-23, that aint cool, and its been said he goes the distance which leads me to believe he's a punching bag. We're talking about the safety of the boxer and ur talking about the promotion and the headache matchmakers go through.

Really as a paying fan I do not want and should not have to watch a guy thats 2 - 23 or worse. Ive seen a lot worse.

Yea basically.

I think boxing as whole would be better off if there was more of a desire to see fights due to the competitiveness of the sport. I mean thats why people follow & get into certain sports to some large degree I feel. They respect the talent of the athletes & want to see them compete with others with talent.

Much of the problem with boxing today is that its too into names & records & not about the competition. Thats why the lowest common denominator is just getting asses in seats by any means possible instead of putting in the work & dealing with the stress to make competitive fights, to make the good product your promotion, the commission & ultimately the sport as a whole.

Randomly I love MMA (not quite as much as boxing, but its my #1 sidechick) & one of the things I love about MMA is people love a guy like Frank Mir who's got a 17-9 record. Thing is he's fought 26 badass &/or respectable guys so your record isn't likely to be that pretty. In MMA its more about the competition & I wish boxing was more like that.

I agree if a boxer loses he automatically got exposed and heaven forbid he lose 4 or 5 times. he's fornicating shot if that happens.

Here is an interview of Qasim before his professional debut - sounds like a good kid. Whatever you want to say about his record, the fact that he never quit after losing 22 straight times shows a lot about his character - glad he got his 2nd win last weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y_LsV5Is7M

yu265545 wrote:the fact that he never quit after losing 22 straight times shows a lot about his character

Lets not forgot stupidity.

And character is overrated when you suck at something in particular something thats giving you physical damage.

No one wants the sh!tty barista with some character making their coffee or the sh!tty cook with some character making their food or the sh!tty auto mechanic with some character fixing your car. But its perfectly fine being the sh!tty guy at hitting people in the head & not getting hit in their head guy with some character lol. Just like if you can't make me coffee or an egg sandwich to a certain degree of quality or fix my car to a certain degree of quality you'll be out of a job a boxer who can't perform to a certain degree of quality in the ring should be looking for a new job too.

For all you folks closely watching Qasim's career, he has unfortunately returned to his losing ways. Since his second win while this thread was last active, he has since reeled off 20 losses in a row, all by UD. Still only 22 years old, his record stands at 2-43-2.

This losing record is a result of the bizarre UK promotional system where 'prospects' and ticket sellers are constantly matched with guys who take the fight at the last minute, have little chance of winning, and are both encouraged to lose but not get stopped.

If they beat the 'prospect' they get less calls as it means they are dangerous. If they get stopped they get suspended for 28 days so can't fight in that period.

So basically they box to survive and not win. Otherwise their earnings go down a lot. There is a great book in this called 'Journeymen' by Mark Turley who posts on the British Forum. Very insightful for the UK scene.

4 rounds max each fight, dwarffights, unexperienced opponends, yea then something like this happens every once in a while.

Nothing special right?