BoxRec

Seamus wrote:If I had to pick DeJesus' 5 best wins I'd say it's

1.W10 Roberto Duran
2.W15 Guts Ishimatsu
3.WTKO12 Josue Marquez
4.WKO11 Vicente Mijares
5.WKO10 Alfonso Frazer

That's not even close to an alltime top 20 Lightweight's resume. One big win and then a deep dropoff.

Ray Lampkin was pretty good.

Yeah, Lampkin beat, well somebody with a pulse.

Help, these guys are ganging up on me. Esteban DeJesus fans step up. Elmersalsa?

Seriously, Esteban DeJesus did take some soft fights, but I guess that they all do that.

DeJesus had over 60 fights but was only knocked out 3 times, twice by Duran and in his last fight with Mamby when he had declined due to drugs and maybe beatings by Duran. I think that he had a good chin.

Ambling Alp II wrote:No, they don't belong in the Top 20 lightweights of all time. If you take into the consideration all of the light weights in the last 130 years, there are clearly more than 18 who were better. There are at least 30 guys who fought at lightweight who were better.

Seamus wrote:If I had to pick DeJesus' 5 best wins I'd say it's

1.W10 Roberto Duran
2.W15 Guts Ishimatsu
3.WTKO12 Josue Marquez
4.WKO11 Vicente Mijares
5.WKO10 Alfonso Frazer

That's not even close to an alltime top 20 Lightweight's resume. One big win and then a deep dropoff.

Scypion wrote:Seriously, Esteban DeJesus did take some soft fights, but I guess that they all do that.

DeJesus had over 60 fights but was only knocked out 3 times, twice by Duran and in his last fight with Mamby when he had declined due to drugs and maybe beatings by Duran. I think that he had a good chin.

elmer's eloquent rebuttals aside, DeJesus was not a Top 20 lightweight of all-time. And no, beating Ray Lampkin doesn't mean much. Lampkin beat virtually no one worth mentioning.

But yes, DeJesus was a very good fighter. Beating Duran was a big deal, and some his other victims were good, (just not all that you mentioned). Agree that DeJesus had a good chin.

Lightweights who were better than Esteban De Jesus. In no particular order.

1.Joe Gans
2.Freddie Welsh
3.Benny Leonard
4.Rocky Kansas
5.Sammy Mandell
6.Tony Canzoneri
7.Lou Ambers
8.Henry Armstrong
9.Sammy Angott
10.Beau Jack
11.Bob Montgomery
12.Ike Williams
13.Jimmy Carter
14.Joe Brown
15.Carlos Ortiz
16.Ismael Laguna
17.Ken Buchanan
18.Alexis Arguello
19.Pernell Whitaker
20.Oscar De La Hoya
21.Lew Tendler
22.Billy Petrolle
23.Lockport Jimmy Duffy
24.Packey McFarland
25.Willie Joyce
26.Pedro Montanez
27.Wesley Ramey
28.Harlem Tommy Murphy
29.Charley White
30.Benny Bass

Probably a few more and to anyone who thinks that's unreasonable, most of those guys are in the IBHOF. So realistically, I could see De Jesus as a top 40 Lightweight at best, which is still pretty good considering how many great lightweights there have been in over a century of the sport.

Duran not in there?

Sorry, forgot that.

Seamus wrote:Lightweights who were better than Esteban De Jesus. In no particular order.

1.Joe Gans
2.Freddie Welsh
3.Benny Leonard
4.Rocky Kansas
5.Sammy Mandell
6.Tony Canzoneri
7.Lou Ambers
8.Henry Armstrong
9.Sammy Angott
10.Beau Jack
11.Bob Montgomery
12.Ike Williams
13.Jimmy Carter
14.Joe Brown
15.Carlos Ortiz
16.Ismael Laguna
17.Ken Buchanan
18.Alexis Arguello
19.Pernell Whitaker
20.Oscar De La Hoya
21.Lew Tendler
22.Billy Petrolle
23.Lockport Jimmy Duffy
24.Packey McFarland
25.Willie Joyce
26.Pedro Montanez
27.Wesley Ramey
28.Harlem Tommy Murphy
29.Charley White
30.Benny Bass

Probably a few more and to anyone who thinks that's unreasonable, most of those guys are in the IBHOF. So realistically, I could see De Jesus as a top 40 Lightweight at best, which is still pretty good considering how many great lightweights there have been in over a century of the sport.

Hard to compare fighters that fought in different era's.

I am sure that some on that list were better than DeJesus.

I might also suggest that some on the list might be in for a surprise if they actually got into the ring with a prime Esteban DeJesus, as Roberto found out in his Duran-DeJesus 1.

Seamus wrote:Lightweights who were better than Esteban De Jesus. In no particular order.

1.Joe Gans
2.Freddie Welsh
3.Benny Leonard
4.Rocky Kansas
5.Sammy Mandell
6.Tony Canzoneri
7.Lou Ambers
8.Henry Armstrong
9.Sammy Angott
10.Beau Jack
11.Bob Montgomery
12.Ike Williams
13.Jimmy Carter
14.Joe Brown
15.Carlos Ortiz
16.Ismael Laguna
17.Ken Buchanan
18.Alexis Arguello
19.Pernell Whitaker
20.Oscar De La Hoya
21.Lew Tendler
22.Billy Petrolle
23.Lockport Jimmy Duffy
24.Packey McFarland
25.Willie Joyce
26.Pedro Montanez
27.Wesley Ramey
28.Harlem Tommy Murphy
29.Charley White
30.Benny Bass

Probably a few more and to anyone who thinks that's unreasonable, most of those guys are in the IBHOF. So realistically, I could see De Jesus as a top 40 Lightweight at best, which is still pretty good considering how many great lightweights there have been in over a century of the sport.

LOL

Scypion wrote:

Seamus wrote:Lightweights who were better than Esteban De Jesus. In no particular order.

1.Joe Gans
2.Freddie Welsh
3.Benny Leonard
4.Rocky Kansas
5.Sammy Mandell
6.Tony Canzoneri
7.Lou Ambers
8.Henry Armstrong
9.Sammy Angott
10.Beau Jack
11.Bob Montgomery
12.Ike Williams
13.Jimmy Carter
14.Joe Brown
15.Carlos Ortiz
16.Ismael Laguna
17.Ken Buchanan
18.Alexis Arguello
19.Pernell Whitaker
20.Oscar De La Hoya
21.Lew Tendler
22.Billy Petrolle
23.Lockport Jimmy Duffy
24.Packey McFarland
25.Willie Joyce
26.Pedro Montanez
27.Wesley Ramey
28.Harlem Tommy Murphy
29.Charley White
30.Benny Bass

Probably a few more and to anyone who thinks that's unreasonable, most of those guys are in the IBHOF. So realistically, I could see De Jesus as a top 40 Lightweight at best, which is still pretty good considering how many great lightweights there have been in over a century of the sport.

Hard to compare fighters that fought in different era's.

I am sure that some on that list were better than DeJesus.

I might also suggest that some on the list might be in for a surprise if they actually got into the ring with a prime Esteban DeJesus, as Roberto found out in his Duran-DeJesus 1.

Well sure, there is always a chance for an upset. He would not go 0-30 against these guys. On the other hand there are others he could easily lose to.

I think you could make a decent argument that DeJesus was better than Laguna, Buchanan, or Kansas.

Some others who were better: Ad Wolgast, Julio Cesar Chavez, Battling Nelson, Frank Erne, Dave Holly, Jack Blackburn, Hector Camacho, Shane Moseley.

Al Singer, Wille Ritchie, Juan Jurita, were roughly even with him. You could even argue for Jose Luis Ramirez, and Edwin Rosario; though personally I would give DeJesus the edge.

Anybody know what the official scorecards read at the time Duran landed that monster hook and knocked Lampkin unconscious?
I recall it as being a very competitive fight with many scribes having Lampkin ahead at the time of the KO.

I've never been able to dig up the official scores, however.
I suspect that Duran was comfortably ahead.

SenorPipino wrote:Anybody know what the official scorecards read at the time Duran landed that monster hook and knocked Lampkin unconscious?
I recall it as being a very competitive fight with many scribes having Lampkin ahead at the time of the KO.

I've never been able to dig up the official scores, however.
I suspect that Duran was comfortably ahead.

No he was not. Duran was ahead by one point. It was one of the great Roberto Duran's toughest fights. That Ray Lampkin came to fight.

elmersalsa wrote:

SenorPipino wrote:Anybody know what the official scorecards read at the time Duran landed that monster hook and knocked Lampkin unconscious?
I recall it as being a very competitive fight with many scribes having Lampkin ahead at the time of the KO.

I've never been able to dig up the official scores, however.
I suspect that Duran was comfortably ahead.

No he was not. Duran was ahead by one point. It was one of the great Roberto Duran's toughest fights. That Ray Lampkin came to fight.

Is that a cumulative total of the 3 official scorecards?
Can you break them down?

All three judges that afternoon were Panamanians, and they would have been hardpressed to have scored it fairly in Panama.

I had the fight 126-125 in favor of The Hands of Stone at the time of the stoppage. It was a grueling and tough scrap, SenorPipino. It was very hot in there and both fighters were scrapping at terrific pace. Lampkin would have been champion of the world that day if the champion was another than the great Roberto Duran.

I will look for the official scorecards of that fight.

I have tried to get the official scoring of the fight at the time of the stoppage, SenorPipino. I could not get it. I may have to see the fight again and see if the TV announcers shared the decision. But I had it 126-125 in favor of the great Roberto Duran. Ray Lampkin fought great. No shame on that.

It was useless, SenorPipino. I could not get the scoring of the officials at the time of this bout. I guess they also had Duran winning.

elmersalsa wrote:It was useless, SenorPipino. I could not get the scoring of the officials at the time of this bout. I guess they also had Duran winning.

Official scorecards at time of stoppage 129-124, 129-124, 128-122.

The UPI had it 128-122.

Wow, that is weird scoring. 129-124 translates into 6 rounds for Duran, one round for Lampkin, and 6 rounds even.

If those scorecards are the real deal (like elmersalsa, I haven't been able to locate any story on the bout that includes the official scores at the time of the KO) it's what I would expect.
It's ludicrous to have given Lampkin only 1 round, but the local judges were in a position where they weren't going to score many rounds against a national icon. I didn't keep a scorecard, but I felt the bout was extremely close.
It was a terrific fight.

Hard to believe that Lampkin was actually licensed in the U.S. to continue boxing. As I recall, he was in the hospital for several days.
I wonder if he would have been licensed in this era following such a devastating KO.

Lampkin fought only 7 more times after the Duran bout, winning 5 and dropping 2.
He ended his career with a 3rd round KO loss to rising star Randy Shields.

Your right about the judges. No way that Lampkin was going to get a decision. Not surprising that they would have Duran up; just odd that so many rounds were scored even. You would think in Panama, they would have it something like 126-121, (nine rounds to four) or something like that.

If you read between the lines, you can tell how close the judges really thought it was.
As for getting a license, it's boxing, just about anyone could get a license. He could get one in some state, even today.

Scypion wrote:I read someplace that Duran and Lampkin ran into each other years later. Ray Lampkin told Duran who he was and mentioned their fight. Duran then invited Lampkin to his home in Panama and I think that Ray took him up on it. Duran showed Lampkin around in Panama and treated him royally.

That's good to hear Duran not just a fighting machine

Scypion wrote:Duran not in there?

Just goes to show how serious we should take that list