BoxRec

fergusg wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:There are guys on Holmes's list, however, who I think beat almost everyone on Wlad's list.

That’s an interesting point! Can you please let me know a few of the names on Larry Holmes’s list that could beat the majority of Wladimir’s opponents? And when I ask you to provide this information, I don’t want you to consider their respective primes… I’m only interested in their ability at the time they fought Larry.

Please also consider how realistic their chance would be of overcoming the challenges posed by modern era fighters that are physically much larger and more athletic (i.e. at least a 23lb+ weight disadvantage), because the average Wladimir Klitschko opponent weighs 239lbs.

koolkc107 wrote:Second- and maybe more important- is the fact that Holmes can say he was truly dominant in his defenses. Wlad, though usually a clear winner in his victory, got KTFO 3 times.

To be honest, I feel you have to give Wladimir Klitschko credit for employing Emmanuel Steward and from learning from his defeats, because he reinvented himself and has pretty much dominated his opponents for the last eleven years.

I also don’t quite agree with your belief that Holmes was “truly dominant” over his opponents… as he had at least three fairly closely scored contests for his successful defences and he also hit the deck quite a few times throughout the course of his career.

People dwell too much on the defeats that Klitschko suffered more than eleven years ago, without giving him credit from turning his career around.

fergusg wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:You are an absolute cretin.

Larry Holmes opponents, who were in shape, should kill themselves dropping weight to 200lb for no reason whatsoever, as the cruisers were 190 at that time?

Just consider that concept again. All of those in shape heavyweights I listed should still drop down to 200lb. . . . because today there are 24 hour weigh ins, and people in lighter divisions who have to make weight rehydrate, and the cruiser limit was moved up to 200lb.

Rather than throw your hands up and concede 'I was wrong, those men were in shape, I can see on the tapes they look like athletes', you throw in silly caveats that they should lose 'more' weight, be 'more' in shape - but place no extra expectations on physique whatosever on Klitschko's opponents, the tapes of which show big soft rotund bodies.

There's no sensible conversation to be had here, you're demonstrably ignorant to basic boxing and any era prior to the current one. It's clear from your writing style that you are a very young man, possibly a child, and that you skim Boxrec numbers to form your arguments rather than study the fights themselves. Your cause is too hopeless, and I don't have time to help some dull witted numbers autistic.

Blah, blah, blah, blah... David Haye... blah, blah, blah.

When you resort to insults, it means that you've conceded. Thanks!

Baby Face Finster wrote:

unifythebelts wrote:The whole "Ali is the greatest" stuff is so played out and so not based in fact or logic. How would Ali beat Wlad? Certainly not by power...and judging based on the performance this past weekend against a man in better shape than Ali ever was, probably not by speed. But Ali's chin would have been punished. He never faced a guy who was 6'6", 240 of pure muscle, with a finely tuned defensive style and a devastating power punch. Ali was not great defensively (he took a ton of punches in his career and hit the canvas a half-dozen times) and had he stepped into the ring with either Klitschko brother there's no way he would see the final bell. He outweighed Cooper by 20 pounds and Cooper had a 50% KO rate, so he wasn't all that powerful...but he put Ali on the floor. The men who knocked Wlad down were all huge, bigger and stronger than Ali and certainly bigger than Cooper or Banks.

Ali might have hit the deck a few times but a prime George Foreman couldn't KO him, so I highly doubt either Klitschko could. The man whatever you may think had a good chin and very good recuperative powers.

unfairlane wrote:fergusg seems to be the only sober poster in here

koolkc107 wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:If Clinchko wants to match stats with the greats he better unify and start defending the belts soon, because he's already 39.

The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

He just doesn't have the stamina, ring IQ or arsenal of punches to handle athletic, moving heavyweights. Jennings with all his limitations and lack of punch power really made him look as ordinary as he is.

And this is exactly why many experts think Wlad would get murdered if you put him in other eras.

Vitali though, because of that chin and that will, competes in any era.

fergusg wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

I think you've expressed a very lazy uneducated opinion!

Here’s a list of the world title fights that Larry Holmes emerged victorious:
• Carl Williams
• James Smith
• Scott Frank
• Tim Witherspoon
• Lucien Rodriguez
• Gerry Cooney
• Renaldo Snipes
• Leon Spinks
• Trevor Berbick
• Muhammad Ali
• Scott LeDoux
• Lorenzo Zanon
• Earnie Shavers
• Mike Weaver
• Ossie Ocasio
• Alfredo Evangelista
• Ken Norton

His victories over Tim Witherspoon & Ken Norton were impressive, but unfortunately for him, he fought in an era where the quality of opposition he faced was merely mediocre.

If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?

Here’s a list of the men that Klitschko successfully defeated in 25 of his world heavyweight championship fights:
• Bryant Jennings
• Kubrat Pulev
• Alex Leapai
• Alexander Povetkin
• Francesco Pianeta
• Mariusz Wach
• Tony Thompson
• Jean Marc Mormeck
• David Haye
• Samuel Peter
• Eddie Chambers
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Hasim Rahman
• Sultan Ibragimov
• Lamon Brewster
• Ray Austin
• Calvin Brock
• Chris Byrd
• Jameel McCline
• Ray Mercer
• Frans Botha
• Charles Shufford
• Derrick Jefferson

The average weight of a Larry Holmes opponent during his successful world title fights, excluding three anomalous flabby behemoths (Leroy Jones, David Bey & Randall Cobb), was 216lbs.

Prior to the Bryant Jennings bout, excluding equally anomalous “small” heavyweight opponents, who have all campaigned as cruiserweights (i.e. Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, David Haye & Jean Marc Mormeck), the average weight of a Dr. Steelhammer title challenger is 239lbs. Wladmir's average over the course of the same bouts was 244lbs.

If you consider the fact that in Larry Holmes’ era, weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight itself, coupled with their typically fleshy physiques, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of his opponents would have campaigned as cruiserweights if they were active today.

dempseyfire wrote:The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

dempseyfire wrote:The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

Tuan_Jim wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

Dempsey, you did it for me. When this fellow said Wlad's opponents were bigger men I knew it was inaccurate but there were too just many ridiculous and wildly inaccurate points to contend with at one time. If he means they were bigger in terms of flab, yes, they were bigger men. But in terms of frame - height, reach et al, absolutely not.

Essentially the fellow boxed himself into a corner by making an absurd statement, and has been trying to save face ever since. Watch how he wriggles away from his initial remark, that Larry Holmes's opponents were mostly fat, to 'they were in shape but should have lost even more weight,' while maintaining Wladimir Klitschko's opponents - often shorter men with shorter reach, but 20 to 30lbs heavier - 'are in shape and don't need to lose any weight'. His position collapses on itself through its mind boggling obesity of contradiction.

And apparently he's the 'best poster on the forum', who 'always makes sound points'.

What an advertisement he is for Current Scene.

koolkc107 wrote:
I didn't say he never gets things wrong. He himself will admit that.

And BTW, I said that about him even though I disagree with him in this particular thread.

On balance tho, fergusg brings it more consistently than most here.

He is a better advertisement for this site than many...especially those whose first reaction is not to counter with solid argument, but with weak personal attacks.

Emil wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:
I didn't say he never gets things wrong. He himself will admit that.

And BTW, I said that about him even though I disagree with him in this particular thread.

On balance tho, fergusg brings it more consistently than most here.

He is a better advertisement for this site than many...especially those whose first reaction is not to counter with solid argument, but with weak personal attacks.

Glad you enjoy the posts. For me most of the posts are like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

unifythebelts wrote: Is that the same Ali who was knocked down by Sonny Banks (190 pounds) and Henry Cooper (185 pounds)?

The whole "Ali is the greatest" stuff is so played out and so not based in fact or logic. How would Ali beat Wlad? Certainly not by power...and judging based on the performance this past weekend against a man in better shape than Ali ever was, probably not by speed. But Ali's chin would have been punished. He never faced a guy who was 6'6", 240 of pure muscle, with a finely tuned defensive style and a devastating power punch. Ali was not great defensively (he took a ton of punches in his career and hit the canvas a half-dozen times) and had he stepped into the ring with either Klitschko brother there's no way he would see the final bell. He outweighed Cooper by 20 pounds and Cooper had a 50% KO rate, so he wasn't all that powerful...but he put Ali on the floor. The men who knocked Wlad down were all huge, bigger and stronger than Ali and certainly bigger than Cooper or Banks.

fergusg wrote:If you consider the fact that in Larry Holmes’ era, weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight itself, coupled with their typically fleshy physiques, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of his opponents would have campaigned as cruiserweights if they were active today.