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Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 20 May 2015, 15:50
by Monte Fisto
koolkc107 wrote:95gerog wrote:koolkc107 wrote:JMM will go down in history as the man who was better than Pacquiao when Pac was creating his legacy.
First ballot HOFer.
Please stop.
JMM thinks he won all 4 fights.
I think his actual record is 2-1-1.
First fight was a draw IMO.
Manny won the second in a close fight.
JMM won the third pretty easily.
JMM scored a KO in the 4th.
Marquez was better.
You ask me who I would have rather been inside those ropes, most of the time I would choose to be Juan.
Thats your opinion. You can remember him that way, but to say thats how he will go down in history is a huge leap! Not going to go through my views on the fights (thats been and gone). He'll be remembered in his own right (The man has had over 60 bouts and 40 KO's), and yes his fights with Pacquiao will be fresh in mosts memory, but your claim on how he will go down in history, is simply that..your claim.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 20 May 2015, 20:41
by Bobbyptsd
It's all somewhat subjective, but I would have no real issue with someone saying he's the greatest Mexican fighter of all time.
I mean, if someone wants to put Chavez, Sanchez or another over him, that's fine too, but I certainly don't see a gulf with anyone.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 00:27
by kidbazooka1
As great as Marquez is Chavez is regarded by most as thr greatest mexican fighter of all time.
And imo it will be very tough to surpass him.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 00:57
by davie
fergusg wrote:
• Ricardo López - Retired undefeated, 26 consecutive world championship bouts.
Just goes to show how highly they think of the minimum weight fighters, you have to go to the third page of Mexican fighters on boxrec rankings before you even find this guy.
His record is bloody impressive though
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 01:27
by kidbazooka1
I dont know how many of you guys seen Finito Lopez the n his prime but the guy was perfection.
Lopez would have beaten Gonzalez no doubt in my mind.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 01:33
by crusader
davie wrote:fergusg wrote:
• Ricardo López - Retired undefeated, 26 consecutive world championship bouts.
Just goes to show how highly they think of the minimum weight fighters, you have to go to the third page of Mexican fighters on boxrec rankings before you even find this guy.
His record is bloody impressive though
BoxRec's ranking are harsh on smaller fighters. Roman Gonzalez isn't even in the top 25 P4P while Cornelius Bundradge, Tyson Fury, and Shawn Porter are.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 03:28
by crusader
Gonzalez has fought many opponents who succeeded at world level, handily defeating several world champions, former world champions, and contenders over multiple divisions and many years. He regularly has stay busy fights against mediocre opposition, which is a significant contributer to the 86 you mention given that over a third of that figure comes from just one of those stay busy opponents, but I don't think that should impair his ranking when he still consistently faces good fighters whom I think are also undervalued by the BoxRec. It's true that several of his opponents had multiple losses, but there doesn't seem to be as much evasion in lower divisions and hence the fighters suffer more defeats, and defeats can be a very flawed measure of quality when fighters are willing to face good opposition.
I don't believe that people like Fury and Bundradge are close to being better fighters than Gonzalez or more proven ones, and to see so many others ranked ahead of RG suggests to me that the rankings are not doing a good job reflecting reality in this case. Looking at the rankings in general I think this extends more broadly, with fighters from the lower divisions being the most disadvantage by BoxRec's method.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 04:00
by crusader
Even if that were all true it's still possible for the rankings to be harsh on him and other fighters in the lowest divisions by not accurately reflecting their ability and accomplishments relative to fighters at heavier weights, so it seems like you're missing the point.
I don't have a full grasp on BoxRec's methodology and why the rankings for people like Gonzalez are so low in the first place, but perhaps there should be less punitive impacts for losses, which I believe are more common in lower divisions due to less evasion. I'd have to read more about the ranking methodology to have a better idea of how it could be improved, but I actually don't need to know anything about it to properly judge whether the consequent rankings correspond with reality.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 09:24
by dempseyfire
Marquez is one of my favorite fighters of all time but come on . . when Rocky Juarez is your 7th best win you are not the greatest Mexican fighter of all time. I'd actually rank Morales over JMM. I'd also rank Chavez and Arizmendi over him. But he's in the top 5.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 09:29
by IKSRTFO
koolkc107 wrote:95gerog wrote:koolkc107 wrote:JMM will go down in history as the man who was better than Pacquiao when Pac was creating his legacy.
First ballot HOFer.
Please stop.
JMM thinks he won all 4 fights.
I think his actual record is 2-1-1.
First fight was a draw IMO.
Manny won the second in a close fight.
JMM won the third pretty easily.
JMM scored a KO in the 4th.
Marquez was better.
You ask me who I would have rather been inside those ropes, most of the time I would choose to be Juan.
However, the actual record is 1-2-1. And if you're going by who should've won, Pacquiao should've been given the 10-6 in the first round of their first fight which determined the end result.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 20:26
by crusader
How can I “miss the point” when all I’ve done is quote the statistics supplied by BoxRec, because we’re only talking about their rankings?
The algorithms that Boxrec uses for their points calculation system does not discriminate between weight-classes.
You miss the point because I made a claim about the rankings being harsh to a certain group of fighters, and you responded by making posts about the supposed difficulty of capturing particular factors in the methodology that shapes these rankings. Sure, it may well be difficult to account for those factors, but that is perfectly consistent with the rankings undervaluing certain fighters--in other words being harsh by giving them fewer points than they deserve based on how they perform and who they beat--in comparison to people who fight in divisions with marked differences other than the quality of competitors.
Since my point was about how the rankings poorly reflect reality in a certain set of cases, NOT how difficult it is for them it is for them to align with reality, you're missing my point by continually focusing on the latter. Perhaps there are too many nuances involved for you to grasp that.
Half of Roman Gonzalez’s previous ten opponents were actually defeated in their previous outing prior to facing him… and we’re talking about one-sided decision losses or stoppage defeats.
How many ranking points does Gonzalez deserve to gain for defeating an opponent that regularly competes in four round contests that has failed to win 32 of his previous 58 fights?
A year ago, Gonzalez faced Juan Purisima who had failed to win 5 of his 16 bouts in total. However, during the fight immediately prior to his contest against Roman, Purisima had dropped a lop-sided 120-105 decision to a 7 fight novice.
That’s the problem that BoxRec will have in trying to calculate Roman Gonzalez’s ranking points. He may have defeated a few world champions in his previous ten bouts, but more often than not, he also faces journeymen that wouldn’t be considered worthy opponents for the big names competing in the heavier weight classes.
Like I’ve said before, I am a fan of Roman Gonzalez and I don’t know enough about all of his opponents to criticise them, but statistically-speaking, the majority of the Mexican’s opposition he faces have bloody terrible resumes.
I’m not sure if I agree or even approve of your theory about there being “less evasion” in the lighter weight-classes, as it seems that there’s an attitude of “anyone can fight any world champion regardless of poor form”.
The BoxRec rankings are merely a statistical tool, which means that their rankings system cannot possibly account for all situations that could occur in the real-world. That being said, despite Gonzalez’s obvious talent in the real-world, in statistical terms alone, he doesn’t deserve to be ranked that highly when he keeps facing journeymen or second-tier fighters that have only just tasted defeat during their preceding bout.
If Mayweather, Klitschko or Golovkin faced the sort of men that Gonzalez does, they’d be subject to obscenely heavy criticism, but the only reason why Roman gets away with it, is because it seems that the majority of casual boxing observers don’t give a damn about the lighter weight classes.
I've already mentioned that Gonzalez frequently engages in stay busy fights, which is likely because he can't afford to sit around because purses are smaller at the lower weights. Still, he manages to fit in good opposition between this, and while you predictably focus on his relatively poor opposition you fail to note that within about the last year and a half he's also fought a multi-time world champion, a reigning lineal champion, a current unified champion, and a solid contender. Shortly before that stretch he also clearly defeated a current world champion who has looked excellent, and he's been handily beating world class opponents for several years and in multiple weight classes. This body of accomplishments is respectable regardless of the divisions he fought in,and to me far more impressive than those of people like Tyson Fury, Shawn Porter, and Cornelius Bundradge, and even if Gonzalez's obvious talent is not a part of the equation I don't believe fighters like this should be ahead of him.
Smart boxing fans shouldn't have a big problem with stay busy fights when the boxers are competing so regularly. If someone would've otherwise sat around doing nothing I don't believe there should be a major problem with those boxers instead fighting lower-level opponents between bigger fights. It's also clear that fighters in the lowest divisions tend to be paid a relatively low amounts, meaning they can't afford to be inactive like fighters at a similar level in the higher divisions can. That reality should be considered when people consider some of the opponents Gonzalez has fought, whether for the formulation of rankings or not.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 20:51
by Badhusker
All time lists again? Best all time Mexican fighter/boxer?
When will people learn? All time great lists are somewhat like current or former atg lists. You may as well have that argument with yourself, because it doesn't mean jack squat anyway. It is simple. Your opinion vs someone elses. If you compare different eras it adds another factor to it.
Spin it to however it suits you, and be happy.
By the way....
The BEST all time mexican fighter is thinking about taking on one of the best all time american fighters again in a rematch. JMM vs Floyd. Should be a good fight, right?
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 21:12
by ClivePatrickLyons
Is Marquez the BEST Mexican fighter ever the answer is simply.....................NO HE IS NOT
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 21 May 2015, 23:57
by Bobbyptsd
ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Is Marquez the BEST Mexican fighter ever the answer is simply.....................NO HE IS NOT
Well, I guess that's settled then.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 08:31
by Badhusker
By the way, I was being a little sarcastic when I said he is the best Mexican fighter. I would say he is in the top five, but like I said, there is no way to prove it. One opinion vs another.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 12:57
by Impractical Poster
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
The only person I think you can really hold up against his record is Finito Lopez, but I must confess, that at that weight class, the strength in depth tends to be quite poor, so it's hard to really know how to rate him. The lack of a great talent pool due to not many people being that bloody small, kind of dilutes it a bit.
I believe this is flawed logic... Take these stats into consideration..
Globally, the average male height is 5'6. And the average male weight is 136 lbs (62 kg)...
There are far more people in the world that are Lopez' size than you assume.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 13:00
by palooka
Doesn't it make a big difference which 'average' you take? Mean, median or mode?
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 13:35
by bigjack
stevedoc wrote:marquez is a great fighter maybe a little underrated but chavez is the greatest mexican for me
Me too,the ultimate fighting machine.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 14:14
by palooka
bigjack wrote:stevedoc wrote:marquez is a great fighter maybe a little underrated but chavez is the greatest mexican for me
Me too,the ultimate fighting machine.
Angelo Dundee said Chavez was the toughest fighter he'd ever seen he said he didn't even bruise.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 14:17
by Impractical Poster
palooka wrote:Doesn't it make a big difference which 'average' you take? Mean, median or mode?
I did not research that. Not sure if my sources specified. But I assume, in an average like this, that it was the mean. Highly doubt mode.
I believe most of us are used to the European and African type people, for the most part. They tend to be the largest races on the planet. But when you start thinking Far East and other countries, there are a whole slew of smaller people there.
For example, in Indonesia, the average male height is 5'2.... again, not sure which method was used.
I'm no mathematician, but with this quantity of numbers, I don't think it would make all that much difference which method was used. I guess median would be the most accurate in this case, but not sure.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 16:30
by jamesmcdonnell
Impractical Poster wrote:jamesmcdonnell wrote:
The only person I think you can really hold up against his record is Finito Lopez, but I must confess, that at that weight class, the strength in depth tends to be quite poor, so it's hard to really know how to rate him. The lack of a great talent pool due to not many people being that bloody small, kind of dilutes it a bit.
I believe this is flawed logic... Take these stats into consideration..
Globally, the average male height is 5'6. And the average male weight is 136 lbs (62 kg)...
There are far more people in the world that are Lopez' size than you assume.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 16:32
by jamesmcdonnell
Impractical Poster wrote:palooka wrote:Doesn't it make a big difference which 'average' you take? Mean, median or mode?
I did not research that. Not sure if my sources specified. But I assume, in an average like this, that it was the mean. Highly doubt mode.
I believe most of us are used to the European and African type people, for the most part. They tend to be the largest races on the planet. But when you start thinking Far East and other countries, there are a whole slew of smaller people there.
For example, in Indonesia, the average male height is 5'2.... again, not sure which method was used.
I'm no mathematician, but with this quantity of numbers, I don't think it would make all that much difference which method was used. I guess median would be the most accurate in this case, but not sure.
Well there can't be many Asians competing as a ratio of populace, because there are far fewer fighters in the lowest weight divisions.
If you take India for example, they don't allow professional boxing, so that's 1.2 billion people who are generally at the small end of the scale gone for a start.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 17:39
by Impractical Poster
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Impractical Poster wrote:palooka wrote:Doesn't it make a big difference which 'average' you take? Mean, median or mode?
I did not research that. Not sure if my sources specified. But I assume, in an average like this, that it was the mean. Highly doubt mode.
I believe most of us are used to the European and African type people, for the most part. They tend to be the largest races on the planet. But when you start thinking Far East and other countries, there are a whole slew of smaller people there.
For example, in Indonesia, the average male height is 5'2.... again, not sure which method was used.
I'm no mathematician, but with this quantity of numbers, I don't think it would make all that much difference which method was used. I guess median would be the most accurate in this case, but not sure.
Well there can't be many Asians competing as a ratio of populace, because there are far fewer fighters in the lowest weight divisions.
If you take India for example, they don't allow professional boxing, so that's 1.2 billion people who are generally at the small end of the scale gone for a start.
Where do you go to find those types of stats? Can we access the number of pro fighters per weight class on this site?
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 17:42
by crusader
If you go to an active fighter's page it should give their ranking out of the total number of active boxers in the division, so Kovalev, for example, is 1/1023.
There are more competitors in the heavier divisions though a significantly greater porportion of them are overweight and not in fighting shape.
Re: Juan Manuel Marquez is the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time
Posted: 22 May 2015, 21:07
by Impractical Poster
crusader wrote:If you go to an active fighter's page it should give their ranking out of the total number of active boxers in the division, so Kovalev, for example, is 1/1023.
There are more competitors in the heavier divisions though a significantly greater porportion of them are overweight and not in fighting shape.
Thanks. I am a little surprised how few active pro boxers there are worldwide. I expected at least 5 times the amount of light heavies in the world. Gonzo's weight class has a little over 300 less fighters than Kovalev's. That's not too bad.