Do Brits(and an Irishman )own the Super Middleweight division?

[Taansend]

The point was, whether you take notice or not, the Irish do for the most part.

I know, Bob. My Old Girl is from Cork. My dad's mum was a traveller. My mum worked in a pub owned by Paddies (the Eagle on Red Lion Lane, Shooters Hill & I remember collections for the Cause. And now I live in the States & have people who are 1/23 Oirish tell me they hate me because I'm from London.

So I go the other way & love everyone.

The people who tell us to hate never get involved in the fighting, just the money making.

[whiskey]

RJJ is the best fighter to wear a super middle title.

So no, we can't say we owned it.

[stevedoc]

RJJ is the best fighter to wear a super middle title.

So no, we can't say we owned it.

you're right RJJ is best fighter at the weight but he spent under 2 years at the weight and other than toney the rest he fought at 168 were pretty average

[whiskey]

RJJ is the best fighter to wear a super middle title.

So no, we can't say we owned it.

you're right RJJ is best fighter at the weight but he spent under 2 years at the weight and other than toney the rest he fought at 168 were pretty average

From memory, he was the IBF middleweight champion, and stepped up to fight the IBF super middle champ in James Toney - widely regarded as the #1 in the division, he dropped him and whitewashed him.

It was a virtuoso performance from beginning to end. Shortly after he moved to 175 and prompted this from Calzaghe at the time:

[big lennox]

RJJ is the best fighter to wear a super middle title.

So no, we can't say we owned it.

Agreed. I saw a good interview with Froch the other day saying that he thought a prime Roy Jones was the best, probably better than Floyd pound for pound. It was great to hear someone of Froch's calibre appreciate how good Roy Jones was. People seem to forget about him these days, particulary after his bad losses, but in his prime he was something else. I couldn't see Calzaghe living with a prime Roy Jones, and to be fair to Joe, I don't think he could either. A lot of people gave him a wide birth.

With that being said, I think it is betweeen Ward, Froch and Calzaghe who are the next best Super-Middleweights.It is one of the hardest divisions to be top dog on because every year the top 10 always has really good fighters, so I do appreciate how good these guys are/were.

I've lost a lot of respect for Ward, though. He doesn't seem to want to travel and wants everything on his own terms + he has too hold a lot and use his head to secure himself victory. A talented guy, but he uses questionable techniques. Froch improved a lot since that first fight, and got more confident. I would have liked to have seen Ward travel. Still, history will show that Ward wasn't prepared to travel.

[expe]

RJJ is the best fighter to wear a super middle title.

So no, we can't say we owned it.

Agreed. I saw a good interview with Froch the other day saying that he thought a prime Roy Jones was the best, probably better than Floyd pound for pound. It was great to hear someone of Froch's calibre appreciate how good Roy Jones was. People seem to forget about him these days, particulary after his bad losses, but in his prime he was something else. I couldn't see Calzaghe living with a prime Roy Jones, and to be fair to Joe, I don't think he could either. A lot of people gave him a wide birth.

With that being said, I think it is betweeen Ward, Froch and Calzaghe who are the next best Super-Middleweights.It is one of the hardest divisions to be top dog on because every year the top 10 always has really good fighters, so I do appreciate how good these guys are/were.

I've lost a lot of respect for Ward, though. He doesn't seem to want to travel and wants everything on his own terms + he has too hold a lot and use his head to secure himself victory. A talented guy, but he uses questionable techniques. Froch improved a lot since that first fight, and got more confident. I would have liked to have seen Ward travel. Still, history will show that Ward wasn't prepared to travel.

You complain about Ward fouling, but praise Roy Jones, who was the biggest cheat of the lot

[big lennox]

RJJ is the best fighter to wear a super middle title.

So no, we can't say we owned it.

Agreed. I saw a good interview with Froch the other day saying that he thought a prime Roy Jones was the best, probably better than Floyd pound for pound. It was great to hear someone of Froch's calibre appreciate how good Roy Jones was. People seem to forget about him these days, particulary after his bad losses, but in his prime he was something else. I couldn't see Calzaghe living with a prime Roy Jones, and to be fair to Joe, I don't think he could either. A lot of people gave him a wide birth.

With that being said, I think it is betweeen Ward, Froch and Calzaghe who are the next best Super-Middleweights.It is one of the hardest divisions to be top dog on because every year the top 10 always has really good fighters, so I do appreciate how good these guys are/were.

I've lost a lot of respect for Ward, though. He doesn't seem to want to travel and wants everything on his own terms + he has too hold a lot and use his head to secure himself victory. A talented guy, but he uses questionable techniques. Froch improved a lot since that first fight, and got more confident. I would have liked to have seen Ward travel. Still, history will show that Ward wasn't prepared to travel.

You complain about Ward fouling, but praise Roy Jones, who was the biggest cheat of the lot

In what way?

[expe]

Agreed. I saw a good interview with Froch the other day saying that he thought a prime Roy Jones was the best, probably better than Floyd pound for pound. It was great to hear someone of Froch's calibre appreciate how good Roy Jones was. People seem to forget about him these days, particulary after his bad losses, but in his prime he was something else. I couldn't see Calzaghe living with a prime Roy Jones, and to be fair to Joe, I don't think he could either. A lot of people gave him a wide birth.

With that being said, I think it is betweeen Ward, Froch and Calzaghe who are the next best Super-Middleweights.It is one of the hardest divisions to be top dog on because every year the top 10 always has really good fighters, so I do appreciate how good these guys are/were.

I've lost a lot of respect for Ward, though. He doesn't seem to want to travel and wants everything on his own terms + he has too hold a lot and use his head to secure himself victory. A talented guy, but he uses questionable techniques. Froch improved a lot since that first fight, and got more confident. I would have liked to have seen Ward travel. Still, history will show that Ward wasn't prepared to travel.

You complain about Ward fouling, but praise Roy Jones, who was the biggest cheat of the lot

In what way?

He was on drugs for most of his career.

[big lennox]

In what way?[/quote]
He was on drugs for most of his career.[/quote]

Was he? Has that been proved? I know he failed test against Richard Hall, who also failed his test? But were there other times? If so, then that obviously changes things.

[expe]

Was he? Has that been proved? I know he failed test against Richard Hall, who also failed his test? But were there other times? If so, then that obviously changes things.

Hall was the only time he failed a test but that doesn't mean he wasn't on anything at other times, I don't see why he would have suddenly started using them for that fight, he'd fought better opponents previously without testing positive. More likely that it was the only time he actually got caught, because drug testing has never been great in boxing and I doubt he was tested out of competition very often.

[freddydoesdallas]

Was he? Has that been proved? I know he failed test against Richard Hall, who also failed his test? But were there other times? If so, then that obviously changes things.

Hall was the only time he failed a test but that doesn't mean he wasn't on anything at other times, I don't see why he would have suddenly started using them for that fight, he'd fought better opponents previously without testing positive. More likely that it was the only time he actually got caught, because drug testing has never been great in boxing and I doubt he was tested out of competition very often.

Perhaps we should then assume that most other boxers were just lucky to not get caught?

[big lennox]

Was he? Has that been proved? I know he failed test against Richard Hall, who also failed his test? But were there other times? If so, then that obviously changes things.

Hall was the only time he failed a test but that doesn't mean he wasn't on anything at other times, I don't see why he would have suddenly started using them for that fight, he'd fought better opponents previously without testing positive. More likely that it was the only time he actually got caught, because drug testing has never been great in boxing and I doubt he was tested out of competition very often.

So it is an assumption then.

[expe]

Was he? Has that been proved? I know he failed test against Richard Hall, who also failed his test? But were there other times? If so, then that obviously changes things.

Hall was the only time he failed a test but that doesn't mean he wasn't on anything at other times, I don't see why he would have suddenly started using them for that fight, he'd fought better opponents previously without testing positive. More likely that it was the only time he actually got caught, because drug testing has never been great in boxing and I doubt he was tested out of competition very often.

So it is an assumption then.

Based on him failing a test for what should have been a routine defence, straight away suggests that something was up, then his athleticism and physique were extraordinary, either he was a natural athlete in a way that very few fighters in history have been, or he was on something.

[big lennox]

Hall was the only time he failed a test but that doesn't mean he wasn't on anything at other times, I don't see why he would have suddenly started using them for that fight, he'd fought better opponents previously without testing positive. More likely that it was the only time he actually got caught, because drug testing has never been great in boxing and I doubt he was tested out of competition very often.[/quote]

So it is an assumption then.[/quote]
Based on him failing a test for what should have been a routine defence, straight away suggests that something was up, then his athleticism and physique were extraordinary, either he was a natural athlete in a way that very few fighters in history have been, or he was on something.[/quote]

Like I said, an assumption on your part, rather than fact.

[expe]

He failed a test, that's a fact, straight away that brings suspicion over his entire career. Lance Armstrong never failed a test, were people wrong to think he was on drugs? They were proven right in the end. Jones Jr isn't the only one, Holyfield was on them, I'd be pretty confident that Pacquiao was a few years ago and I'm sure other top fighters have been without getting caught, but he failed a test, at that point I think it's safe to say he was a cheat.

[big lennox]

Whilst there are queston marks, your argument is made on an assumption and not fact.

[mcjarvo]

Kessler was half British, his mother was English.

[Counter-puncher]

Whilst there are queston marks, your argument is made on an assumption and not fact.

He was handing round with kid galahads brother long enough that we cam all draw our own conclusions.

[Lenny]

Whilst there are queston marks, your argument is made on an assumption and not fact.

How many times is it cool to fail a test? What if Margarito only tried to use dodgy wraps once?

[big lennox]

Whilst there are queston marks, your argument is made on an assumption and not fact.

How many times is it cool to fail a test? What if Margarito only tried to use dodgy wraps once?

That's not the question. I agree one time is bad enough -terrible,in fact, particularly in a sport like boxing where you are talking about people's welfare. That being said, one can speculate, but cannot state with certainty that he was on drugs his whole career.

[Counter-puncher]

The effects you get from a cycle outlive that cycle. Those steroids could be unfairly beating the sh1t out of another man for a couple of years down the line, at least. Recent tests prove some of the gains are near-permanent, I believe.

[big lennox]

The effects you get from a cycle outlive that cycle. Those steroids could be unfairly beating the sh1t out of another man for a couple of years down the line, at least. Recent tests prove some of the gains are near-permanent, I believe.

That's interesting. I did not know that, and that certainly changes my view on his achievements.

[Tomasino]

I know for a fact that some gains are permanent. Especially if the drugs are used correctly and the user continues to train and eat well after the cycle. I've seen it so many times on people who are not even athletes, who don't have access to the type of quality drugs that pro athlete do. Working class guys ion£300 a week. Imagine what millionaires like Jones and Evan Fields can get their hands on.

[Autobarn]

Ok the best super middleweight was Jones but he wasn't at the weight long and the big toney fight was a horrible mismatch with toney arguably not even in fighting condition having to shed about 4 stone...

toney was outstanding, for a short time but "lights out" lacked the discipline to settle in any one weight and his attitude prior to the Jones fight prevented the weight from having a significant rivalry stateside.

Ward won super 6 but didn't do much after, disappeared with promotional issues. He seems 175-bound and every fight since super 6 has light heavyweight connotations (bringing Dawson down from 175, bringing smith up to 175 and also the mandatory challenger weirdly coming in over the weight).

Leonard and hearns continued their great rivalry at super middleweight but really they were fighting just above middleweight to suit Leonard and they were over their best weight and past their best days.

Britain has calzaghe who made 20 defenses and then unified the division vs lacy and Kessler. And froch taking on world class opponents every fight since winning the title 7 years ago - bar one fight - and managing 2 masterclasses (Abraham and Bute), engaging in 2 rivalries, and numerous fight of the year candidate wars. 168 also has continuations of eubank's rivalries with both watson and Benn, huge events, major clashes of personalities; one fight stunning and devastating, the other entertaining and controversial with the fighters staring one another down even during the decision that allowed both to keep their titles. We have Benn's 8 defenses and astonishing and tragic fight vs McClellan, yet another fight from this list that's been talked about years later.

Not to mention numerous good 2ndary champs Reid, Woodall and catley all of whom have significant wins or strong performances to their name. Paul Smith could have joined that roster if he'd got the decision vs Abraham. Clinton woods also worth a mention, spent a lot of time at 168 maybe preparing him for good little run as 175-pound titlist.

The biggest title run and only full unification (calzaghe), the hardest title run (froch), the biggest and bitterest and nastiest rivalries (froch-groves, Benn-Eubank, eubank-Watson,) the biggest personalities; the most brutal, bleak and controversial fights; the biggest crowds (froch-groves 2), biggest worldwide tv audience (Benn-Eubank 2 most watched fight of 1993).

UK has a pretty strong claim. Degale winning a belt the other week opens up 2 huge matchups, vs British great froch or a continuation of the rivalry with fellow Olympic medallist groves in what could well be another all british unification (after Benn-Eubank 2).

[Tuan_Jim]

Difficult to know whether Brits ruled because they were all squabbling so long over the cheap WBO title while the major titles were held by the likes of Jones and Toney et al. Similar to Froch and Groves engaging in a couple of mega fights even though Ward would beat them both.