BoxRec

Horse wrote:]Maidana and Cotto were much more competitive with Mayweather than Alvarez was. Alvarez has also lost to Trout (I meant to mention him in my original response to you, but I mentioned Lara twice by accident) and Lara according to a lot of people, so his record really isn't as strong as you're making out.

It's not just what the record books say, it is about the fighter's performance in the fights and Alvarez was not convincing when getting his two best wins.

Maybe if you were less abusive then you would get less abuse back. Yes.

Does it really matter how competitive one is when they face Floyd? They all have lost, who cares how well they performed when the results are still the same? The record books (something you ignore) says that Canelo beat both Trout and Lara, because you do not accept that you won't count it as a credit for him.

Floyd lost to Castillo in their first fight but the books says he won, even though I disagree with the books I still have to count it officially.

As far as being abusive, it's funny how you guys always point the finger at me for being that way when I'm always responding to someone who has come at me first, that's how it always is for me here but I don't care; I just come back with something harder that sticks and it gets more attention than the lame stuff those who do not like me state.

Like I said, P4P lists are highly subjective and I just happen to not agree with yours.

KBB wrote:Does it really matter how competitive one is when they face Floyd? They all have lost, who cares how well they performed when the results are still the same?

Yes, it does matter. Competitiveness matters.

KBB wrote:The record books (something you ignore) says that Canelo beat both Trout and Lara, because you do not accept that you won't count it as a credit for him.

Alvarez is No. 11 in my rankings. I fail to see how I'm not giving him any credit for those results.

KBB wrote:Floyd lost to Castillo in their first fight but the books says he won, even though I disagree with the books I still have to count it officially.

You don't have to count it as a win if you don't agree with it.

KBB wrote:As far as being abusive, it's funny how you guys always point the finger at me for being that way when I'm always responding to someone who has come at me first, that's how it always is for me here but I don't care; I just come back with something harder that sticks and it gets more attention than the lame stuff those who do not like me state.

You started the abuse in this thread.

KBB wrote:Like I said, P4P lists are highly subjective and I just happen to not agree with yours.

And you just happen to act like I'm a moron for disagreeing with you.

Horse wrote:

Sub-Lingual Tablet. wrote:Stop showing off Horse, it's most unseemly for someone of your vast age.

Hahaha.

Not a bad list horse, for me Bradley is too high considering his performances in the last year, but hey ho

Nice to see Gonzalez so high

And estrada

Counter-puncher wrote:Not a bad list horse, for me Bradley is too high considering his performances in the last year, but hey ho

He looked rubbish in the 2nd half of the Pacquiao fight, but he beat Chaves at a canter really.

Bradley has a very solid record and I think he is deserving of a top 10 place.

Counter-puncher wrote:Nice to see Gonzalez so high

Counter-puncher wrote:And estrada

fergusg wrote:Why do you rate Lucas Matthysse above Danny Garcia?

I think Matthysse is a better fighter and he is on better form.

Garcia recently struggled to beat Peterson controversially on points, whereas Matthysse beat Provodnikov widely on points.

fergusg wrote:Lucas Matthysse has never won a world title and has already been defeated by Danny Garcia, Devon Alexander & Zab Judah, with his best victories coming against Lamont Peterson, DeMarcus Corley & Ruslan Provodnikov.

The majority of people think that Matthysse deserved to win the Alexander and Judah fights.

fergusg wrote:In stark contrast, Danny Garcia is unbeaten, considered the top dog at 140lbs (by ESPN, Ring Magazine & BoxRec), defeated seven former world champions, which include: Amir Khan; Lucas Matthysse; Lamont Peterson; Erik Morales; Zab Judah; Kendall Holt; and Nate Campbell, as well as emerging victorious in six world title fights.

Danny Garcia is not unbeaten. Herrera beat him quite clearly a year and a quarter ago.

fergusg wrote:I’d argue that (based on Provodnikov being defensively irresponsible) that Lamont Peterson could beat the Russian. So he’s a tougher opponent to beat.

Maybe he is, but it's not clear that he would win and Matthysse destroyed Peterson when they fought 2 years ago.

fergusg wrote:Matthysse did more damage, for sure, but Alexander won more rounds by a clear margin. The same applies for the Judah fight, which Matthysse should have won if he hadn't decided to take a break for a couple of rounds. Both contests could have gone either way though and there was no robbery.

The majority thought Matthysse won both fights and I agree with them.

fergusg wrote:In my mind, Garcia just about deserved to gain the decision, despite his poor performance, but I think that fans were rooting for the underdog to score an upset, hence the public outcry of robbery. It was another close fight though.

I scored it 117-112 to Herrera. It wasn't even close.

How did you score the fight? I'm pretty sure you are in a small minority if you managed to score it for Garcia.

The "fans were rooting for the underdog to score an upset" line is utter rot. Garcia got beaten clearly, so that's what people saw.

fergusg wrote:I can’t remember what my scorecard was, because I wasn’t using my iPad app back then, so I really have no idea.

However, I’ve taken a look at the media’s scoring and ESPN reckoned it was 114-114 and Ring magazine had it 115-113 to Garcia, but I know a lot of other people had Herrera winning.

Herrera won the fight clearly as far as I'm concerned.

Garcia lost.

Horse wrote:You started the abuse in this thread. And you just happen to act like I'm a moron for disagreeing with you.

Where did I start any abuse in this thread? Please show me!! I have a right to disagree with you, because you didn't like how I stated your P4P list was a joke and should be closed then you took that as abuse and think it's moronic as if someone has to agree with you.

Take it however you want it, I made an opinion based in facts, your opinions are based on whether or not you like how Canelo fought or didn't.

No fighter other than Floyd has made it obvious that he has beaten Canelo easily, you can debate the Lara win, you can debate the Trout win either way for either man but neither of them defined themselves or made it look obvious even if you do believe that they actually beat him.

Besides that you have other guys on the list who hasn't faced the competition that Canelo has and you have them ahead of him, what a joke that is which is why I disagreed with your list and said it should be closed.

I know it hurts your feelings because in your eyes everyone should agree with you or they're acting like a moron. Wow, give me a break.

The best part about these threads/lists is the arguing and disagreement, and Horse defending the attacks.

Kingfield wrote:The best part about these threads/lists is the arguing and disagreement, and Horse defending the attacks.

You are right about that.But I do give him credit for being brave enough to take the punishment
every month

Anyone who doesn't have ggg no.1 p4p doesn't know wtf they are watching. Roman arguably in the right position though.

Gonzalez has beaten much better guys than GGG, not even close, and he passes the eye test at least as well if not better. All that bullshit about ggg getting hit in the face cos he is choosing to or sacrificing defence to come forward, Roman comes forward like a Mongol horde and still he doesnt take clean shots. Sosa will be a better fighter in 3 years and 8 fights time, at about 40 (not that I hope he is still fighting that long, I'm just saying if), than Martin Murray will ever be.

tiny_acres wrote:

Kingfield wrote:The best part about these threads/lists is the arguing and disagreement, and Horse defending the attacks.

You are right about that.But I do give him credit for being brave enough to take the punishment
every month

I am not talking about Horse, but isn't taking punishment every month for free is a sign of dumbness

ikorolev wrote:

tiny_acres wrote:

Kingfield wrote:The best part about these threads/lists is the arguing and disagreement, and Horse defending the attacks.

You are right about that.But I do give him credit for being brave enough to take the punishment
every month

I am not talking about Horse, but isn't taking punishment every month for free is a sign of dumbness

Maybe he should learn some defense from Floyd

Counter-puncher wrote:Gonzalez has beaten much better guys than GGG.

Hopkins has beaten better guys than both.

Just use your eyes.

Ricky_ wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Gonzalez has beaten much better guys than GGG.

Hopkins has beaten better guys than both.

Just use your eyes.

(1) not recently he hasn't

(2) I do use my eyes, Gonzalez is every bit the fighter GGG is.

REF recent comments by Golovkin fanboys, 'yes he is getting punched in the facemore than you'd liek, but he's doing it deliberately because he wants to create excitement for the fans/being more offensive/ knows his opponents can't hurt him'. Gonzalez can apply just as much offence and pressure without sacrificing defence. use your eyes.

I know everyone is loving Gonzlez at the moment, but I'll dare saying that he's too high, IMO. There are several reasons for this:
1) lower weights are less stacked and therefore its not a great surprise Boxrec doesn't have him in their top 30 p4p, though it is unfair as well. One may argue lower weights are underappreciated as they have lot of action fights and fast skilled fighters, but that's what you are supposed to be if you weight 110 lb - impressively fast.
2) he fought like 3 top 5 guys at the time of a fight at their respective divisions. That's good, but probably not yet #2 p4p. (btw Estrada was inexperienced and suffered a loss at the hands of much lesser fighter only a year before Gonzlez fight).
3) Sosa is old at 35 like most guys at lower weights are at this age. Beating a guy like that should not elevate you from #4 to #2 p4p, especilly over a guy, who has beaten three top 5 guys of his division only during the last 2 years (which is most relevant for current p4p rankings).

Golovkin's resume and skills are comparable to those of Gonzalez, so I think its a matter of taste who is higher, both well deserving thier place in top 10, especially given the highly subjective subsatance of p4p ratings.

Leonid wrote: 1) lower weights are less stacked

Whereas Middleweight is so full of talent that it produces fighters of the calibre of Martin Murray and Willie Monroe? hmm. or should we talk about the real big guns, Stevens and Geale?

oh, but, the problem for GGG has been, the top guys are scared to face him. those 'top guys', over the past couple of years, being a one-legged Argentinian and a Puerto Rican 154lber.

Counter-puncher wrote:

Ricky_ wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Gonzalez has beaten much better guys than GGG.

Hopkins has beaten better guys than both.

Just use your eyes.

(1) not recently he hasn't

(2) I do use my eyes, Gonzalez is every bit the fighter GGG is.

REF recent comments by Golovkin fanboys, 'yes he is getting punched in the facemore than you'd liek, but he's doing it deliberately because he wants to create excitement for the fans/being more offensive/ knows his opponents can't hurt him'. Gonzalez can apply just as much offence and pressure without sacrificing defence. use your eyes.

I disagree but you're not really opposing my point anyway. I've had Golovkin no.1 for well over a year. Roman is worthy of fans like yoruself arguing for no.1 spot. I don't give too much credence to the whole "who's he beat" stuff in p4p lists, it's about skill, it's only really an issue when the opposition is so low it gives an unjust representation of the fighters' skills we're trying to rate, and in that sense, Roman & Golovkin could do with some proper hyped up rivals to make believers out of the masses who still got Floyd and Pac as the torch bearers. I reckon Golovkin would destroy Ward in a few rounds then nobody would have him in as a ridiculous position as 7 or whatever horse has him.

KBB wrote:Where did I start any abuse in this thread? Please show me!! I have a right to disagree with you, because you didn't like how I stated your P4P list was a joke and should be closed then you took that as abuse and think it's moronic as if someone has to agree with you.

Yes, that is abuse. It's not like the abuse you received was any worse than what you dished out.

KBB wrote:Take it however you want it, I made an opinion based in facts, your opinions are based on whether or not you like how Canelo fought or didn't.

P4P rankings are based on opinion. I didn't think Alvarez looked that great against Lara and Trout and they are clearly his two best wins.

I've got him at No. 11, which isn't a bad ranking.

KBB wrote:No fighter other than Floyd has made it obvious that he has beaten Canelo easily, you can debate the Lara win, you can debate the Trout win either way for either man but neither of them defined themselves or made it look obvious even if you do believe that they actually beat him.

A top 10 P4P fighter should be able to beat Trout and Lara more clearly. They are not that great.

KBB wrote:Besides that you have other guys on the list who hasn't faced the competition that Canelo has and you have them ahead of him, what a joke that is which is why I disagreed with your list and said it should be closed.

Ring magazine doesn't have Alvarez in their top 10 and neither does the TBRB.

It's not a joke to have Alvarez at No. 11. He is not universally considered to be a top 10 P4P fighter.

KBB wrote:I know it hurts your feelings because in your eyes everyone should agree with you or they're acting like a moron. Wow, give me a break.

tiny_acres wrote:

Kingfield wrote:The best part about these threads/lists is the arguing and disagreement, and Horse defending the attacks.

You are right about that.But I do give him credit for being brave enough to take the punishment
every month

Ricky_ wrote:Anyone who doesn't have ggg no.1 p4p doesn't know wtf they are watching. Roman arguably in the right position though.

Golovkin's best win is against Martin Murray.

Mayweather is the clear P4P No. 1. Anyone who doesn't have Mayweather as P4P No. 1 doesn't have a credible list.

Counter-puncher wrote:Gonzalez has beaten much better guys than GGG, not even close, and he passes the eye test at least as well if not better. All that bullshit about ggg getting hit in the face cos he is choosing to or sacrificing defence to come forward, Roman comes forward like a Mongol horde and still he doesnt take clean shots. Sosa will be a better fighter in 3 years and 8 fights time, at about 40 (not that I hope he is still fighting that long, I'm just saying if), than Martin Murray will ever be.

Murray is better than Sosa, but I agree with the rest.

Horse wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Gonzalez has beaten much better guys than GGG, not even close, and he passes the eye test at least as well if not better. All that bullshit about ggg getting hit in the face cos he is choosing to or sacrificing defence to come forward, Roman comes forward like a Mongol horde and still he doesnt take clean shots. Sosa will be a better fighter in 3 years and 8 fights time, at about 40 (not that I hope he is still fighting that long, I'm just saying if), than Martin Murray will ever be.

Murray is better than Sosa, but I agree with the rest.

if you're after a 180lb heavybag, sure