BoxRec

Tuan_Jim wrote:And yet Hagler, the best or second best middle in history, struggled against him!

And yet Marvin clearly won that fight, are you going to criticize him for fights that he actually won? It was a bruising encounter against that version of Roberto Duran, and there's no shame in "struggling" as you put it against a fighter like Duran. Moreover, I'd rather say that it was a difficult fight for both of them, in which Marvin came out the victor. Hell, any fighter in history around those weight classes would struggle against a hungry and motivated Roberto Duran.

The Tommy Hearns fight is often brought up when discussing Duran, but in my opinion the Hagler fight really took it out of Duran. And I would say that The Hitman beat a depleted version of Duran. Although I still give him full credit for the victory.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Duran looked more than big enough against the enormous Barkley.

My point was primarily that Duran is better to be ranked a Lightweight or even Welterweight, rather than considering him a true Middleweight.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Tomasino wrote: Very good. What would you call him then? If not a proud warrior?

Lots of things. A bully, a cheat, a quitter.

Fair enough, I agree to some extent. Still a legend of boxing. Lots of bully's and cheats involved in the fight game.

Crease wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:And yet Hagler, the best or second best middle in history, struggled against him!

And yet Marvin clearly won that fight, are you going to criticize him for fights that he actually won? It was a bruising encounter against that version of Roberto Duran, and there's no shame in "struggling" as you put it against a fighter like Duran. Moreover, I'd rather say that it was a difficult fight for both of them, in which Marvin came out the victor. Hell, any fighter in history around those weight classes would struggle against a hungry and motivated Roberto Duran.

The Tommy Hearns fight is often brought up when discussing Duran, but in my opinion the Hagler fight really took it out of Duran. And I would say that The Hitman beat a depleted version of Duran. Although I still give him full credit for the victory.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Duran looked more than big enough against the enormous Barkley.

My point was primarily that Duran is better to be ranked a Lightweight or even Welterweight, rather than considering him a true Middleweight.

No, I agree with you. However the paradox fascinates me, that Duran is too small for the best middles and yet gave the best middle a scary night, and later splattered a big, hard punching middle.

There is no shame in Hagler's hard night's work against Duran - when Duran was fit & focussed he brought an enormous bag of tools & tricks to dip into. He's as you say best ranked as a lightweight and welter, but I believe is also a live proposition at middle. There's a long long list of well regarded middleweight world champions who fall short of Hagler's class - would they have survived against the Duran that Hagler met?

The Duran-Hagler fight was a combination of things. Duran fought as good of a fight as you could expect him to, and Hagler (as he did occasionally) took several rounds off.

This version of Duran would beat weak champions like Downes, Corro, Antuofermo, and Minter. He would not beat the better middleweight champions (assuming they they fought at their normal level.)

Duran had one bad night turning away from SRL what about the other 100 plus fights ,the Davey Moore fight was brilliant from Duran

The great Roberto Duran. Indeed, my favorite fighter ever. He was not successful beyond lightweight as the record shows, but, boy! He had a decent career at middleweight. A weight class that he could not handle very well due to age and being past his prime. He had to rely on skill and experience at higher weight classes. He wasn't as quick like in lightweight or welter, and neither could stop strong natural middleweights, but gave almost everyone at 160 fits. That's how good this guy was.
He almost beat the great Marvin Hagler. Hagler in my view, had to hurry and win the last 3 rounds. That is a mark of a great champ. That fight helped Marvelous, it did not tarnished him. Hagler ended up with a BLACK EYE. I imagine if Duran was a natural middleweight? Duran would have beaten him soundly. It was the last 3 rounds that Duran ran of gas, and that was understandable. It was not his weight range. And out of prime.
I believe that he got snubbed in the Robbie Sims fight. I believe that the boxing powers and commissioners wanted him to retire. I really believe that. And still gave Sims a BLACK EYE in that slugfest. And to top it off, at 38 and washed-up, beats Iran Barkley to win his Fourth crown in another SLUGSFEST? Say what? Barkley had a BLACK EYE also? And also was dropped in round 11?...Ain't Barkley almost stopped Manos de Piedra in round six? He spun Duran with a left hook.
If this guy is not a top 5 all time great pound per pound, then, I do not know what makes him not to. He is the best fighter I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFETIME!
FORGET THE NO MAS FIGHT! WHAT'S ABOUT THE OTHER HUNDREDS OF FIGHTS HE WAS IN? HE DID NOT HAD GUTS?

Whoever says that this guy is a coward and that he I not game, then, that person does not know nothing about boxing. Duran, the greatest ever.

Very interesting thread.

Minter was slightly before my time but the general words ive heard used to describe him by proffesional boxing writers of the time ,both sides of the pond were "stylish boxer" and its,said his tactics and face first brawling with hagler were an abberation to his usual m.o.

Duran in my mind at MW was robbed v sims, and had the two great performances v hagler & barkley, other than that only the gimenez win meant anything.the win over castro and the robbery against camacho I and humiliation v joppy are i assume irrelevant Duran was 227 than.

The 80s mw duran outpoints minter but it would be as tough as the barkley fight. Minter was strong,could punch and box.

orbtastic wrote:Pat lawlor

Well if your going to offer that up seriously...I suppose you have to accept the avenged version equally seriously.

You're.

mugabi wrote:Very interesting thread.

Minter was slightly before my time but the general words ive heard used to describe him by proffesional boxing writers of the time ,both sides of the pond were "stylish boxer" and its,said his tactics and face first brawling with hagler were an abberation to his usual m.o.

Duran in my mind at MW was robbed v sims, and had the two great performances v hagler & barkley, other than that only the gimenez win meant anything.the win over castro and the robbery against camacho I and humiliation v joppy are i assume irrelevant Duran was 227 than.

The 80s mw duran outpoints minter but it would be as tough as the barkley fight. Minter was strong,could punch and box.

this

Duran dismantles the ordinary Minter if the Panamanian is in shape and motivated.

By time he reached the 160 lb. division, you never knew what version of Duran would enter the ring---the guy who tore apart Moore, went 15 tough rounds with Hagler or the lethargic fighter who lost to Kirkland Laing (Kirkland Laing!!) and was put to sleep by Hearns.

A very inconsistent performer once he moved up from welter.

Duran shouldn't be viewed as a great middleweight, simply as a great fighter.

If he enters the ring with the same conditioning and mindset he had against Barkley, then he destroys the fragile Brit within 6 rounds.

Jr. Middleweight and middleweight weight classes were too big and out of Manos de Piedra ' range. Plus ,by that time, he was past his prime.

SenorPipino wrote:Duran dismantles the ordinary Minter if the Panamanian is in shape and motivated.

By time he reached the 160 lb. division, you never knew what version of Duran would enter the ring---the guy who tore apart Moore, went 15 tough rounds with Hagler or the lethargic fighter who lost to Kirkland Laing (Kirkland Laing!!) and was put to sleep by Hearns.

A very inconsistent performer once he moved up from welter.

Duran shouldn't be viewed as a great middleweight, simply as a great fighter.

If he enters the ring with the same conditioning and mindset he had against Barkley, then he destroys the fragile Brit within 6 rounds.

disagree - but i'll go with your view of RD as a great fighter. if a guy had a great jab and would refuse to get suckered into a scrap with him then duran struggled. minter is not going to get tricked by duran as so many did - hagler and moore among them - into a brawl. he's going to pick off duran on the back foot - he's naturally bigger and his shots hurt. but that's just my view and this is a forum to present contrasting views. I have watched durans bout with marvin and moore back to back and it seems to me that Roberto was a master at getting fighters to open up and take him on in the roughhouse area. duran was not a meaner brawler than most but he WAS a smarter brawler than just about anyone I can think of. when things got ugly (his plan) he'd be sneaking in the sweetest of body shots and perfectly timed uppercuts - rarely throwing energy sapping swings. in this regard I consider him one of the smartest ring generals there has been - like a fritzie zivic plus

I'v never seen so many fuc.wit's trying to put down a LEGEND LIKE DURAN AND ANY IDIOT THAT PUTS MINTER ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DURAN AT ANY STAGE IS A MUG.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:I'v never seen so many fuc.wit's trying to put down a LEGEND LIKE DURAN AND ANY IDIOT THAT PUTS MINTER ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DURAN AT ANY STAGE IS A MUG.

I feel the same way about people typing in capitals.

Anyone who equates outboxing Vito Antuofermo with outboxing Roberto Duran can be safely ignored.

Tomasino wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:I'v never seen so many fuc.wit's trying to put down a LEGEND LIKE DURAN AND ANY IDIOT THAT PUTS MINTER ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DURAN AT ANY STAGE IS A MUG.

I feel the same way about people typing in capitals.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Anyone who equates outboxing Vito Antuofermo with outboxing Roberto Duran can be safely ignored.

Counter-puncher wrote:Most people move their head more whilst asleep than Antuofermo moved his in the ring.

indeed.

SenorPipino wrote:the lethargic fighter who lost to Kirkland Laing

I love the way you give zero credit to Laing. He schooled Duran and just because he wasn't a multi weight world champion, you assume it's because Duran had an off night. Laing had tremendous skills, although most of the time, he didn't have the focus to use them.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:I'v never seen so many fuc.wit's trying to put down a LEGEND LIKE DURAN AND ANY IDIOT THAT PUTS MINTER ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DURAN AT ANY STAGE IS A MUG.

you're not exactly helping his cause

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SenorPipino wrote:the lethargic fighter who lost to Kirkland Laing

I love the way you give zero credit to Laing. He schooled Duran and just because he wasn't a multi weight world champion, you assume it's because Duran had an off night. Laing had tremendous skills, although most of the time, he didn't have the focus to use them.

Laing had "tremendous skills?"

If it wasn't for his one-night stand against an out-of-shape, unmotivated Duran, there's not a soul on earth who would remember this "tremendously skilled" fighter.

Yeah, that's Duran's fault for not being ready, but do you really believe a Kirkland Laing could ever "school" the legendary Duran?
Duran forgot more about the sport then Laing was ever going to learn.

The great Roberto Duran had problems coping with natural middleweights and super welterweights speeds. Those were weight classes out of his range. Any natural 154 or 160 pounder with speed could have beaten him even if he came motivated. Duran to win had to rely on opponents to come at him and slug it out, which was a BIG MISTAKE....And even at that, he used to give natural middleweights fits.

about right - a skilled back foot snappy jabber who is also a natural middleweight means trouble for duran every time

misterpunch wrote:about right - a skilled back foot snappy jabber who is also a natural middleweight means trouble for duran every time

Yes, if Alan Minter is a fast guy. Duran's speed was not the same as when he fought at lightweight and welterweight.

SenorPipino wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SenorPipino wrote:the lethargic fighter who lost to Kirkland Laing

I love the way you give zero credit to Laing. He schooled Duran and just because he wasn't a multi weight world champion, you assume it's because Duran had an off night. Laing had tremendous skills, although most of the time, he didn't have the focus to use them.

Laing had "tremendous skills?"

If it wasn't for his one-night stand against an out-of-shape, unmotivated Duran, there's not a soul on earth who would remember this "tremendously skilled" fighter.

Yeah, that's Duran's fault for not being ready, but do you really believe a Kirkland Laing could ever "school" the legendary Duran?
Duran forgot more about the sport then Laing was ever going to learn.

Why do you say Duran was out-of-shape and unmotivated? Do you know this for a fact? Or is it just the excuse that was used when Duran was beaten handily by someone relatively unknown outside of the UK?