Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour

[Tomasino]

Running around in circles is not a guarantee in beating someone like the great Roberto Duran in his A game

But yet it worked perfectly in the second fight.

Every time Duran loses, his fans say it's because he hadn't trained properly, wasn't focused and was out of shape.

So you believe that Duran on the second fight brought his A game?

The EVIDENCE is clear that he went into a party binge. He had all the gusto that he could get after the win in Montreal.
I do not have excuses for Roberto. He lost to Esteban DeJesus outright in the first fight.
I like Sugar Ray. He is top 20 ATG pound per pound. But in the biggest fight of his career, he lost to a lightweight.
I never believed that he was a superior fighter than Duran. In what he was superior? In boxing skills? A better career? In what he was superior superior?

Leaonard beat Hearns, Benitez, Hagler and Roberto himself. I think that's what makes him have a better career than Duran, he kept his money and his health too which counts for something in my book. The first fight was a huge win for Duran and I had him winning by two rounds. Leonard showed he was a great fighter in every respect in that fight. He showed himself to be the smarter man and better athlete over his career though. I mean,, Leonard had partying issues himself but never let himself go out of shape the way fat Robert did.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree with what you and Keith have been saying. If you look at things logically, Leonard comes out as the better fighter.

Head to head: (Throwing out the 3rd fight) TKO8 trumps a close 15 round decision.
Common opponents: (Throwing out Duran's fights with Hearns and Hagler) Leonard beat Benitez, Duran lost to Benitez.
Consistency: Duran lost to DeJesus. Leonard never lost to someone like that near his prime.
Best wins: Leonard wins over Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler easily trumps Duran's win over Buchanan, DeJesus, Palomino.

elmer believes literally anything that supports the Duran cause.
He has been spouting his Duran nonsense for years.

He believes that Duran partied for months and was only a shell of his former shelf. (As if getting out of shape is a valid excuse anyway.)
He believes that the first Leonard-Duran fight was Leonard's best fight.
He believes that Duran was a lightweight when he fought Leonard.
He believes that Duran won the first Duran-Leonard fight easily. (even though he once admitted that he only had Duran winning by 3 points.)
He believes that Duran's win over Ray Lampkin is a big win because Lampkin was a NABF champion. (doesn't matter that Lampkin won that lame title by beating a guy with a losing record.)
He believes that Duran was a clean fighter.
Most importantly, he believes there are valid excuses for 15 of 16 Duran losses.

[elmersalsa]

It is well documented that Duran went into a party celebration in NYC. He stayed about two months there. By that time, he ballooned up to more than 200lbs. That's a fact. See it at the No Mas documentary in 30 for 30 films by ESPN.

I want to know in what Leonard was superior to Manos de Piedra?

And you believe all these stories? Here are the facts. Leonard made Duran quit like a little spoilt brat. Leonard was the better boxer in two of their three matches.

You must hate Roberto Duran. There are videos of how he quickly ballooned to 200lbs.
Randy Gordon, a famous boxing pundit, also has an inside article and scoop of what happened in New Orleans.
He quit, so what. He redeemed himself. That is all that matters.

Here is another fact: On Sugar Ray's biggest fight, he got WHUPPED at his very best. How about that, Mister!

[elmersalsa]

I agree with what you and Keith have been saying. If you look at things logically, Leonard comes out as the better fighter.

Head to head: (Throwing out the 3rd fight) TKO8 trumps a close 15 round decision.
Common opponents: (Throwing out Duran's fights with Hearns and Hagler) Leonard beat Benitez, Duran lost to Benitez.
Consistency: Duran lost to DeJesus. Leonard never lost to someone like that near his prime.
Best wins: Leonard wins over Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler easily trumps Duran's win over Buchanan, DeJesus, Palomino.

elmer believes literally anything that supports the Duran cause.
He has been spouting his Duran nonsense for years.

He believes that Duran partied for months and was only a shell of his former shelf. (As if getting out of shape is a valid excuse anyway.)
He believes that the first Leonard-Duran fight was Leonard's best fight.
He believes that Duran was a lightweight when he fought Leonard.
He believes that Duran won the first Duran-Leonard fight easily. (even though he once admitted that he only had Duran winning by 3 points.)
He believes that Duran's win over Ray Lampkin is a big win because Lampkin was a NABF champion. (doesn't matter that Lampkin won that lame title by beating a guy with a losing record.)
He believes that Duran was a clean fighter.
Most importantly, he believes there are valid excuses for 15 of 16 Duran losses.

Leonard fought two guys that were not natural welterweights. Can you imagine if Duran was a natural 147 pounder? Leonard would have been knocked out.

Can you imagine a featherweight taking Duran's crown? Tell me Alp. What featherweight in history could have beaten Duran at his best state?

Then you mention Duran's losses. Did not he had to go to someone's weight class to have a fight? I do not see in his record that a featherweight or Jr lightweight challenged him for a fight. Not even a Jr welter challenged him. And Leonard was better? Please!

I do not see him challenging an exceptional great above his weight class. The great Marvin Hagler challenge happened AFTER Duran challenged him. Why he did not challenged him in '82? Oh, the retina issue? Really?


You do not just judge quality of opponents to measure one guy over another. You got to put all the other issues into play.

Duran was lightweight king for 7 years. Was a better lightweight than Leonard at 147. He even Whupped him in his best night. If it were reversed (Leonard a lightweight challenging a natural welter Duran), would he win?

Think the magnitude of Duran's finest hour. Think about it.

[keithmoonhangover]

It is well documented that Duran went into a party celebration in NYC. He stayed about two months there. By that time, he ballooned up to more than 200lbs. That's a fact. See it at the No Mas documentary in 30 for 30 films by ESPN.

I want to know in what Leonard was superior to Manos de Piedra?

And you believe all these stories? Here are the facts. Leonard made Duran quit like a little spoilt brat. Leonard was the better boxer in two of their three matches.

You must hate Roberto Duran. There are videos of how he quickly ballooned to 200lbs.
Randy Gordon, a famous boxing pundit, also has an inside article and scoop of what happened in New Orleans.
He quit, so what. He redeemed himself. That is all that matters.

Here is another fact: On Sugar Ray's biggest fight, he got WHUPPED at his very best. How about that, Mister!

How do you know it was Leonard's best night?

[Scypion]

It is well documented that Duran went into a party celebration in NYC. He stayed about two months there. By that time, he ballooned up to more than 200lbs. That's a fact. See it at the No Mas documentary in 30 for 30 films by ESPN.

I want to know in what Leonard was superior to Manos de Piedra?

Thanks for posting about the 30 for 30 documentary by ESPN. I watched it for the first time last night and it was very interesting. Nice to know that Duran and Leonard became friends after their rivalry. I guess that the rivalry goes on with their fans though.

I also read the Randy Gordon article. Interesting as well. Don't know why it is so hard to believe that Duran was sick when Leonard fought Duran the 2nd time. I am surprised that he didn't pass out before the weigh-in.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

[Tomasino]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

Put the same Leonard that fought Kevin Howard in '84 vs The Hitman that decapitated Duran and destroyed Fred Hutchins, and Hearns gets his revenge, this time, by a brutal KO.

No way Sugar Ray beats Tommy at 154lbs. No way.

Duran dominated the fight. Did not you see the first 4 rounds?

Benitez and Laing beat Duran at 154lbs. Not at welter. Put them against Duran of the Montreal fight and is a different story.

[Tomasino]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

Put the same Leonard that fought Kevin Howard in '84 vs The Hitman that decapitated Duran and destroyed Fred Hutchins, and Hearns gets his revenge, this time, by a brutal KO.

No way Sugar Ray beats Tommy at 154lbs. No way.

Duran dominated the fight. Did not you see the first 4 rounds?

Benitez and Laing beat Duran at 154lbs. Not at welter. Put them against Duran of the Montreal fight and is a different story.

I watched the fight lots of times and always saw it the same way. Yes Duran won the early rounds 10-9 but that hardly makes the whole fight a rout. Leonard won some rounds just as clearly. I will watch it again when I get home from work.

[Ambling Alp II]

I had Duran winning round two 10-8. There were several rounds that were hard to score; you had the quantity of Duran's punches against the cleaner shots by Leonard.

It was a close fight. elmer himself once said ( and I will never let him live it down) that he only had Duran winning by three points. For a 15-round fight that is pretty close. That is not a whipping. If winning by three points is a whipping, then what is a TKO8, murder?

[Ambling Alp II]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

Tomasino,
Don't you know that Duran (and only Duran) was always a lightweight? You can't count losses against him when he moved up in weight.
It doesn't matter that he gained weight over time and weighed about the same as his opponents.
It doesn't matter that Hearns did not begin as a Jr Middleweight.
It doesn't matter that Benitez didn't start out at Jr Middleweight either.
It doesn't matter than umpteen fighters have won a title at one class, moved up and won a title in another weight class.
It doesn't matter that almost every fighter in history who has a career that lasts over a few years the lower weight classes eventually moves up.
Mickey Walker is not forever a welterweight. Henry Armstrong is not forever a featherweight. Manny Pac is not forever a flyweight. Evander Holyfield is not forever a cruiserweight.
However, Duran somehow stays forever a lightweight.

[elmersalsa]

I had Duran winning round two 10-8. There were several rounds that were hard to score; you had the quantity of Duran's punches against the cleaner shots by Leonard.

It was a close fight. elmer himself once said ( and I will never let him live it down) that he only had Duran winning by three points. For a 15-round fight that is pretty close. That is not a whipping. If winning by three points is a whipping, then what is a TKO8, murder?

See, then again, a TKO8 on paper is not the same as what we saw on video on that night in New Orleans. Duran quit, and at the time, as a fan, it hurts. Can you imagine a twelve year old boy crying when he saw that his boxing hero, quits?
Only Duran knows what happened. Did he had "stomach cramps" like he wanted us to believe? I don't know. He was not hurt. He was still in the fight. He was losing by 2 points by the judges and by one point on the other. It WAS DURAN'S FAULT THAT HE DID NOT PREPARED HIMSELF PROPERLY IN NEW ORLEANS. But, in Montreal, Leonard does not beat him at no time. Duran was better. He DOMINATED Sugar Ray. Leonard would have been stopped if he was not grabbing and clutching the whole fight.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

Tomasino,
Don't you know that Duran (and only Duran) was always a lightweight? You can't count losses against him when he moved up in weight.
It doesn't matter that he gained weight over time and weighed about the same as his opponents.
It doesn't matter that Hearns did not begin as a Jr Middleweight.
It doesn't matter that Benitez didn't start out at Jr Middleweight either.
It doesn't matter than umpteen fighters have won a title at one class, moved up and won a title in another weight class.
It doesn't matter that almost every fighter in history who has a career that lasts over a few years the lower weight classes eventually moves up.
Mickey Walker is not forever a welterweight. Henry Armstrong is not forever a featherweight. Manny Pac is not forever a flyweight. Evander Holyfield is not forever a cruiserweight.
However, Duran somehow stays forever a lightweight.

Duran lost to Esteban DeJesus fair and square. Duran was in his heydays.
All other losses happened AFTER he lost to Leonard, in his thirties and out of prime. Duran had to fight in other boxers weights. NOBODY came to challenged him when he was champion in the 70s, right Al?

[yancey]

I do not think that the great Sugar Ray Leonard fought a wrong tactical fight like the American media implied at the time. He simply got whipped by the better fighter. The great Roberto Duran was remarkable in his boxing skills and underrated speed. He even surprised me how he made Leonard miss lots of times. It was Duran'surprised finest hour. He was in great shape.
When the two were at the top of their game, Duran won. Plain and simple.

I think Yancy likes this argument for another duet of fighters. And in this case, it's exactly correct.

Correct in both cases.

[Ambling Alp II]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

There always an excuse. He was a whopping 30 when he lost to Benitez and 31 when lost to the legendary Kirkland Laing. Apparently about ready for the old folks home.

I think what bugs people about some of the Duran supporters is how far they will go. If they just say, Duran fought a great fight and beat Leonard, fair enough.
It's the crybaby excuses for the loss to Leonard as well as the losses to Benitez and Laing that irk people. Or saying that he was better than Leonard, and ignore all the other evidence which points to the contrary.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard caught Duran in an OFF NIGHT. That's all.

When both were at their A game, Duran Whupped him. That's is all to it.

Only in your head Elmer. Close fight. Benitez, Laing, Hearns all whipped Duran. I mean, what Hearns did to him he could never do to Leonard.

There always an excuse. He was a whopping 30 when he lost to Benitez and 31 when lost to the legendary Kirkland Laing. Apparently about ready for the old folks home.

I think what bugs people about some of the Duran supporters is how far they will go. If they just say, Duran fought a great fight and beat Leonard, fair enough.
It's the crybaby excuses for the loss to Leonard as well as the losses to Benitez and Laing that irk people. Or saying that he was better than Leonard, and ignore all the other evidence which points to the contrary.

Yes, he was thirty, but not on his prime.
Yes, he was thirty, but 20 pounds over his natural weight.
Yes, he was thirty, but the 154lbs class was TOO BIG for the Hands of Stone.

Is like, you put Sugar Ray Leonard 20 pounds his natural weight class and fights exceptional boxers like the great Bob Foster and Michael Spinks. Do You believe Leonard would come victorious?
I want someone to answer me that question. Do you believe Leonard goes to light heavy and beat exceptional 154lbs pounders like the greats Ezzard Charles, Roy Jones, Jr or Billy Conn?

Someone answer me this, please

[Ambling Alp II]

huh? Was alcohol involved when making your post?

[Seamus]

Leonard was never better than that night in Montreal ? That's ridiculous. That's like saying Ali was never better than the night he lost to Frazier in there first bout, or maybe, Duran was never better than he was in his first bout with DeJesus, he 2nd and 3rd bouts are irrelevant because DeJesus whupped him at his absolute best.

[elmersalsa]

huh? Was alcohol involved when making your post?

Why is that?

[Scypion]

huh? Was alcohol involved when making your post?

Why is that?

I think that Alp is referring to the fact that you had 154 lbs. for light heavyweights instead of 175 lbs.

[Ambling Alp II]

That was the main thing.
Of course there is other silly logic.

Duran fighting fighting at 154 is not comparable at all to Leonard not fighting at 175:
First, Duran was only moving up 3 weight classes and 19 pounds. For Leonard to fight at 175, he would be moving up 4 weight classes and 28 pounds.
Secondly, Duran did not just go from fighting at 135 (against guys who did not weigh more than 135) in one fight and go straight into fighting at 154.
He did this very gradually over time as his body filled out. He fought several non-title fights at over 135 when he was still lightweight champion. After giving up the lightweight title in 1978, he fought several fights at 147 before winning the welterweight title. As being decisively beaten by Leonard, he fought several fights as a Jr Middleweight before losing to Benitez.

Your body fills out as you get older. Hearns moved up, Benitez moved. Armstrong moved up from featherweight, won titles at lightweight welterweight, and almost middleweight. Manny Pac moved up over time from flyweight all the way to welterweight.

It's been proven time and time against that it's normal for fighters in lower weight classes to move up in weight.
It is abnormal for someone to start out at lightweight and remain there for the rest of their career.

No reason at all to think Duran was not close to his prime when he lost to Benitez. Benitez himself had moved up a couple of weight classes. And losing to Laing at that stage in his career is embarrassing. Not much to backup the past his excuse.

Of course, there is always an excuse with Duran, isn't there?

[Counter-puncher]

huh? Was alcohol involved when making your post?

Hi, alp, you have much more patience with Elmo than I could manage. The thread has thrown up a few interesting questions, though, which I will put forward for your consideration

Featherweights who could come up to 135 and beat Duran? I would suggest that both Arguello and Sanchez would have a shot.... (is it out of the question that either man could take one fight out of 3 with Duran like Dejesus did? Though Arguello was proven above 126 in a way that Sanchez wasn't, as it happens I think Sanchez maybe had a better style to deal with Duran- quicker feet and hands, better head movement and counterpuncher, more compact puncher than Arguello)

Henry Armstrong certainly could go up to 135 from featherweight and beat Duran.

Any more?

Benitez 'only' beat an old/154lb Duran, and wouldn't manage the same at 147lbs. Again I would suggest Benitez has a shot, there; I think he would be less likely than the young and greenish Leonard to be mentally intimidated by Duran, and the fight he did have with Duran, irrespective of Durand being allegedly past it.by that point, I think that fight showed that Benitez' style matched pretty well with Durans. Out of the question that he could at least take one fight in three from Duran?

Also, alp, you mention slightly mockingly that Duran 'only' beat Leonard by 3pts or whatever. I have some sympathy with his position there. You know the phrase 'closer in the ring than on the cards'? That describes those scorecards for me: The early rounds Duran won, he won clearly and kicked leonards ass for him. The later rounds Leonard won, were much closer I m o, and were in any case won against a fighter who was coasting just a little, I m o.

[Scypion]

I think that what it boils down to here is that Leonard fans will never concede that Duran is better and Duran fans will never concede that Leonard is better. Both great fighters though.

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard was a one eyed coke addict, but still managed to beat Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler. Imagine what he could have achieved if he was 100%.

Just for the record, I'm a Hearns fan, always have been, always will be.