BoxRec

jujigatame wrote:

Blodhemn wrote:Does this mean BJ is the highest rated American cruiserweight? Damnit, Jordan.

The BoxRec top 3 US CWs are:

1. BJ Flores
2. Roy Jones
3. Michael Hunter

Is Hunter any good?

Hunter is more like a prospect looks like he moving to heavyweight. None of American crusers has a shot on the world level.

I remember I got a very hard time on here for apparently 'trolling' dennis when in reality I was just shocked at the stuff he was coming out with. I think last weekend has validated my opinions on the matter. I never said anything bad about Jordan and actually liked him but some of the stuf dennis was coming out with was crazy

' Usyk's a good fighter, but Jordans rated higher by the sanctioning bodies, Uysk can have a shot at the title when jordans champion'

statements like this from dennis deserved some level of scrutiny , and I was labelled a troll by some for doing it

That was an awful fight. They both looked terrible.

tflanagan5 wrote:I remember I got a very hard time on here for apparently 'trolling' dennis when in reality I was just shocked at the stuff he was coming out with. I think last weekend has validated my opinions on the matter. I never said anything bad about Jordan and actually liked him but some of the stuf dennis was coming out with was crazy

' Usyk's a good fighter, but Jordans rated higher by the sanctioning bodies, Uysk can have a shot at the title when jordans champion'

statements like this from dennis deserved some level of scrutiny , and I was labelled a troll by some for doing it

Yea I suggested a couple of times that Jordan had been a bum-crusher and got some flak for it myself.

jujigatame wrote:

tflanagan5 wrote:I remember I got a very hard time on here for apparently 'trolling' dennis when in reality I was just shocked at the stuff he was coming out with. I think last weekend has validated my opinions on the matter. I never said anything bad about Jordan and actually liked him but some of the stuf dennis was coming out with was crazy

' Usyk's a good fighter, but Jordans rated higher by the sanctioning bodies, Uysk can have a shot at the title when jordans champion'

statements like this from dennis deserved some level of scrutiny , and I was labelled a troll by some for doing it

Yea I suggested a couple of times that Jordan had been a bum-crusher and got some flak for it myself.

yup I was actually quite high on Jordan but I was just being rational, he was a guy who never got to the highest level in the amateurs and had only faced bums and his dads was on here saying his ahead of usyk and a ton of ass lickers were lapping up what he was saying

dennis was saying stuff like there going to fight for a world title after the Thomas fight.

I also suggested would he not get Jordan fighting since 200 pounds is very much dominated by Europeans. His reply was the champs will have to come here to face Jordan, this is where the money is. it was ridiculous stuff and some idiots here were lapping it up while I was getting called a troll for being rational

I have been collating boxing stats and analysing over 200 fights per week for 25 years. Time after time I have seen fighters avoid decent opposition, it rings alarm bells to me. Believing sanction bodies ratings is dangerous. At the IWBR we are usually bang on the money because the ratings are based on man who beat the man, I had hopedJordan was as good as his dad said he was, but in the end he is not yet a top 50 fighter let alone world class and the reason is clear why he amassed wins against the sort of opposition he did, and that is his current level, as soon as he steps up he is not good enough. Maybe he can improve and get better, maybe not. Losing wide on points can be hard on the confidence, sometimes fighters can get over knockouts and think it was a lucky shot or they made a mistake. In JS case it seems he did not look good in 36 minutes. He might need to think about what level he can achieve. Will be interesting to see what Al Haymon does with him now.

I guess Dennis is a bit embarrassed by it all but it is only what all dads think of their son. judging fighters that are unbeaten is often hard unless you can watch them sparring with better fighters and have a really good knowledge of knowing their real capabilities and lots of other good fighters in the same division.

jockpunk wrote:That was an awful fight. They both looked terrible.

X2 I didn't either fighter going anywhere near world class

I don't know what you guys were watching saying neither guy is going anywhere. Armageto is a good eye and he calls it straight on Thomas. Other good eyes saw his skill as well. Top of the line defensive ability and precision point punching offense. He won almost every round and that was even with a lowish type of output volume. Schimmel in comparison threw more punches...but landed a lot less and a much lower percentage. Everything Thomas did screams top contender ability. The only knock was that he could do even more in those rounds but he was already winning all those rounds....against a guy who had never lost a round. The only other thing he lacks is top notch power but as it was you saw Schimmel's face...he tore and busted him up. And he did it without throwing a bigger volume and over only 10 rounds. Thomas may not knock a lot of guys out but he has enough to do damage to anybody he faces. Thomas is top level prospect now, and he is the best hope the USA has at CW.

Schimmel is also not a terrible boxer. His defense was terrible and he was pretty basic looking but he was tough, he was aggressive, and almost every other night he will be facing a guy with much less defensive skill than Thomas has. What he did would have worked against fighters a notch lower than Thomas. And if he had been able to adjust some and found his distance vs Thomas he could have won the fight. Many rounds were close enough that a couple big shots could have swung them. I'm sure he will learn more from this fight than all the others he had before it. He never lost a single round so he was not really matched well coming up to prepare him for a real hard fight. And the targeting of Thomas was just a bad idea all the way around for the step up. Even when I knew Thomas was inactive and seemed to have struggled with a lesser guy than Schimmel coming back, I still knew he had the tools to upset this thing no matter how good Jordan actually was. So the whole situation with Schimmel is also something of a managing and match making error. They never let the guy learn climbing hills and then sent him to try and go up a mountain. He's gonna need to fight more quality fighters to get better and to see where he will really rank against the field. There's a ton of room between Thomas quality and guys Schimmel can sweep the rounds from quality. Flores is on of them....Thomas would whip him....Schimmel would likely do much better than he did vs Thomas against him....he might even be able to beat Flores....as he's not that good.

Really bad match up. Give credit to both young guys for taking the fight. Ugly fight frankly. Easily could have been carded a draw. Too soon to say about either guy. For those that know much about the game they were both top amateurs. Bad match up though style wise. Someone wasn't thinking well putting them together. Both are not done. Give credit they took the fight.

Everything Thomas did screams top contender ability.

What? Not seeing that at all. Super low workrate, no power, and he just was able to occasionally jab and counter because Shimmell was just sloppily rushing him half the time and seemed to have zero idea how to manage distance. Thomas looked to me like a poor man's Mchunu.

tflanagan5 wrote:

jujigatame wrote:

tflanagan5 wrote:I remember I got a very hard time on here for apparently 'trolling' dennis when in reality I was just shocked at the stuff he was coming out with. I think last weekend has validated my opinions on the matter. I never said anything bad about Jordan and actually liked him but some of the stuf dennis was coming out with was crazy

' Usyk's a good fighter, but Jordans rated higher by the sanctioning bodies, Uysk can have a shot at the title when jordans champion'

statements like this from dennis deserved some level of scrutiny , and I was labelled a troll by some for doing it

Yea I suggested a couple of times that Jordan had been a bum-crusher and got some flak for it myself.

yup I was actually quite high on Jordan but I was just being rational, he was a guy who never got to the highest level in the amateurs and had only faced bums and his dads was on here saying his ahead of usyk and a ton of ass lickers were lapping up what he was saying

dennis was saying stuff like there going to fight for a world title after the Thomas fight.

I also suggested would he not get Jordan fighting since 200 pounds is very much dominated by Europeans. His reply was the champs will have to come here to face Jordan, this is where the money is. it was ridiculous stuff and some idiots here were lapping it up while I was getting called a troll for being rational

Yeah. It was apparent there was Jordan hype, while at the same time trying to downplay the top competition overseas. The reality is, Cunningham is still leagues ahead of the remainder of the American cruiserweights, he just moved up to HW, as did Tarver. America's top two cruisers are fighting at HW, the rest, Flores, Thomas, Shimmell are simply domestic level fighters and should be discussed as such.

Based on their respective performances, Flores would still beat both Thomas and Shimmell pretty easily.

I don't know what you were watching but Flores did not look good at all. Shumenov looked great. Thomas also looked great. Shumenov moved like a butterfly and stung Flores with ease like a bee and he had no answers at all...not even for his corner...only questions. Thomas showed defensive skills and slickness that are already up at the very top of CW in terms of those skills. He worked off the ropes like he was Muhammed Ali with extra slickness as he rarely ever even got landed on. He slipped, blocked, countered and timed almost every exchange perfectly.

Thomas would beat Flores right now. If BJ doesn't have somebody standing and trading with him he is out of his league. Schimmel would do that for him and even there I cannot see Flores having as good of a shot at beating Schimmel than Thomas has of beating him. Schimmel could compete with Flores right now, Thomas flat out outboxes him. Thomas is the best American CW today and going forward he will prove it. He's ready for the big time and everybody sleeping on him will get woken up quickly.

Now where the hell is Team Schimmel? You can't just duck the after party after hyping the party up. You've had enough time for the corn starch application to the swamp arse to bring a little relief and healing back to the crack. What happened and why did you shart your pants? We want answers.

You saw what happened.
A lot of Shimmel hype was posted on this forum and the first time he faced a live opponent it was proven that there is little substance behind that hype.
No, Thomas is not destined for the top of the division.
He did not look great or even very good, Thomas has no power and a low workrate.
Any cruiser with a decent workrate and the ability to throw a punch without running into his opponent will put Thomas in his defensive shell and win a wide decision.
Thomas will not throw enough punches to win rounds against that kind of opponent.

I'll be here to tell you I TOLD YOU SO when Thomas destroys all the CW competition on his way to the title. PBC needs to sign Thomas vs Flores. That fight would cement Thomas as the best CW the USA has and also put him right there in the mix for title shots or eliminators. If he can get the right fights he could be CW Champion within the year.

That's fine.
Unlike Dennis, I will be here to admit I was wrong if that's the way it works out.

Kronkpride wrote:I'll be here to tell you I TOLD YOU SO when Thomas destroys all the CW competition on his way to the title. PBC needs to sign Thomas vs Flores. That fight would cement Thomas as the best CW the USA has and also put him right there in the mix for title shots or eliminators. If he can get the right fights he could be CW Champion within the year.

Methinks there is a little bias at work here.

armageto wrote:I see the chance for upside in Thomas. If he becomes more active and gets a little more aggressive in the amount of punches he throws, he could easily be a top 10 guy in the division. I did expect more from him last night, but career inactivity might have played a role.

I'm only basing it off last night, the only fight I've seen from him, but I don't see the upside in Shimmell. He looked very basic in there. I expected more when you look at his total AM's/pro amount of fights. He looks like he will be a solid mid range guy, giving some upcoming fighters guys, but I don't see him as top 10 material.

This is not a biased point here. And Armageto has a very good eye.

Now, the output of Thomas does have to get better. His trainer was saying so during the fight and had his own guy in a closer contest than he actually was in. The announcers brought it up, every commenter here so far has as well. As well as the activity...its was his 3rd fight in almost 3 years. Getting active and going for the top and the title will allow Thomas to sharpen up and improve on what he needs to improve on.

As it was though, his defense was off the chain....very few at CW even come close to having those types of defensive skills. His punching when he did let his hands go was precision punching, he landed a huge percentage of what he did throw and Shimmell wore the face of a beat up man at the end of the deal. Can you imagine what Shimmel would have looked like had Isiah been throwing more punches and got ahold of him for 12 rounds instead of 10? That was not the best Thomas or even close...it was a glimpse of all the tools though.

Now here is a quote that could also be called biased but Emanuel called them how he saw them whether the fighter was his or not. Emanuel Steward:""I have a kid who will be the next big thing - Isiah Thomas," says Steward. "I don't have to teach him much, he's a gifted athlete. I haven't seen anyone as good since Mays." Very rarely does Emanuel get things so wrong that a guy he praises doesn't do anything.

The kid has to go to work but he's whipped arse at world level in the ams and has a massive amount of natural ability. The hard work and some more killer instinct to go with it and he will be ready for anybody in the world. He got targeted by Team Shimmell and showed he is a whole nother level from Jordan even when Jordan had everything else going for him besides fighting skill. I think they can both get better than their fight showed them but Thomas has a ceiling to the very top of the world.