BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote:
Explain to me what Frazier could do in the ring to beat Foreman. What would he do differently style-wise to win?

elmersalsa wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:
Explain to me what Frazier could do in the ring to beat Foreman. What would he do differently style-wise to win?

For starters, in my view, my view only, the great Smokin' Joe LEFT IT ALL HE HAD IN THE FOTC @ MSG. That fight was BRUTAL. I don't know how Ali and Frazier withstand a huge deal of pounding. What kept them up? I don't know. Maybe it was the real hatred that they had for each other. I don't know what would be. When Ali got up from that left hook, tired in the final round, it was REMARKABLE. What made him get up? I really don't know. Another fighter would have said, "Forget about it, count until ten, ref".

Secondly, Frazier in Jamaica was an EASY TARGET. He didn't had the bob and weave speed. In the FOTC, Ali missed a whole lot of punches. Frazier was a DIFFICULT TARGET TO HIT.

I don't think that the great George Foreman would've stand THE TERRIFIC PACE AND THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE that Frazier put on him. Big George was not a great inside fighter. Once Frazier is inside, it's all Smokin' Joe. Foreman stamina in the 70s was another handicap. Would've he had the pace to fight like that? Remember, Ali was much faster and he missed. Now, Foreman?

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:
Explain to me what Frazier could do in the ring to beat Foreman. What would he do differently style-wise to win?

For starters, in my view, my view only, the great Smokin' Joe LEFT IT ALL HE HAD IN THE FOTC @ MSG. That fight was BRUTAL. I don't know how Ali and Frazier withstand a huge deal of pounding. What kept them up? I don't know. Maybe it was the real hatred that they had for each other. I don't know what would be. When Ali got up from that left hook, tired in the final round, it was REMARKABLE. What made him get up? I really don't know. Another fighter would have said, "Forget about it, count until ten, ref".

Secondly, Frazier in Jamaica was an EASY TARGET. He didn't had the bob and weave speed. In the FOTC, Ali missed a whole lot of punches. Frazier was a DIFFICULT TARGET TO HIT.

I don't think that the great George Foreman would've stand THE TERRIFIC PACE AND THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE that Frazier put on him. Big George was not a great inside fighter. Once Frazier is inside, it's all Smokin' Joe. Foreman stamina in the 70s was another handicap. Would've he had the pace to fight like that? Remember, Ali was much faster and he missed. Now, Foreman?

There's only one tiny little thing you didn't mention. What happens when Frazier gets hit cleanly with Foreman's best shots? Allow me to tell you what happens, Frazier hits the floor. Watch the FOTC and see how many punches Ali lands on Frazier. If Foreman landed even 1/3 of the punches Ali did, it would be night night Frazier.

Frazier was a tremendous warrior, but Foreman was all wrong for him. Styles make fights and Foreman's style wins this one.

palooka wrote:If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

elmersalsa wrote:I never believe "The styles makes fights" issue. Foreman has never fought someone with that relentless pressure. Ali was faster than Foreman, and could not hit him often. Now, Foreman?

Rexob wrote:Tyson vs Spinks
Fury Vs Klit

keithmoonhangover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:I never believe "The styles makes fights" issue. Foreman has never fought someone with that relentless pressure. Ali was faster than Foreman, and could not hit him often. Now, Foreman?

Foreman couldn't miss Frazier, Ali landed loads of punches in the FOTC, so Foreman would land some and he would hurt Frazier.

Come on Elmo, you make the same statement about Frazier, that you make about Duran. The minute they left the ring after their biggest win, they were never the same fighter again. Coincidence?

palooka wrote:If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

palooka wrote:If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

I have heard this before some people believe Frazier was not at his best when Foreman took his title.....this of cause is crap he was undefeated
undisputed heavyweight champ at the time......... he may have slipped a bit by the time the thriller in Manilla so did Ali.. who would have beaten these two on that UNFOREGETTABLE NIGHT:?? .......................NOT MANY IF ANY

yancey wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

palooka wrote:If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

I have heard this before some people believe Frazier was not at his best when Foreman took his title.....this of cause is crap he was undefeated
undisputed heavyweight champ at the time......... he may have slipped a bit by the time the thriller in Manilla so did Ali.. who would have beaten these two on that UNFOREGETTABLE NIGHT:?? .......................NOT MANY IF ANY

If you sincerely believe Frazier was at his best for his title defense against Foreman, then I will sincerely say you are utterly clueless.

JF was never the same fighter post-FOTC.

Ambling Alp II wrote:This has been debated before. He just turned 29 and had a whopping 29 fights going into the Foreman fight. Many fighters older and with much more wear and tear were considered in their prime. Yet we are supposed to believe that he was unbeatable in the first Ali fight, then suddenly had almost nothing left since Frazier loses, all of a sudden he is past his best.
One fight took it's toll even though so many other fighters had a fight where they took at least as much punishment and kept going on. Similar to the crybaby Roberto Duran excuses.

Ambling Alp II wrote:This has been debated before. He just turned 29 and had a whopping 29 fights going into the Foreman fight. Many fighters older and with much more wear and tear were considered in their prime. Yet we are supposed to believe that he was unbeatable in the first Ali fight, then suddenly had almost nothing left since Frazier loses, all of a sudden he is past his best.
One fight took it's toll even though so many other fighters had a fight where they took at least as much punishment and kept going on. Similar to the crybaby Roberto Duran excuses.

keithmoonhangover wrote:Joe Frazier W15 Muhammad Ali:

George Foreman would beat any version of Frazier.

elmersalsa wrote:Saying that Smokin Joe was the same fighter of the FOTC against Foreman is like saying George W. Bush was the best president of the US ever.

witherspoon wrote:I can see both sides of this argument. Not so much for the fact that Frazier struggled against weak opposition after FOTC, I would probably choose to explain that as a motivational issue.

I don't doubt that the fight with Ali took something away from Joe. I refuse to believe that he was physically washed up, however tough that fight was, he's 29 years old, a mere puppy.

At the same time, I think it's fairly obvious that Joe was not as well prepared physically for Foreman as he had been for Ali. He looks soft in the Foreman fight. My guess is that Joe lost alot of his competitive edge after beating the greatest heavyweight of all time.

But for all that, I can't imagine a fully fit and motivated Frazier hearing the final bell against a young George Foreman. It's easy to envisage a much more competitive fight, extremely difficult to see how Frazier would win.