BoxRec

He's tarted himself around too much, and his reputation has suffered as a result. He allowed himself to be bullied by Hamed, because the pay was good, and comes in as a sort of 'guru' to help fighters out.

I am sure that any trainer worth their salt knows damned well you are not going to be able to share training duties in the way he did with Suarez, and turn out a top quality fighter, his training with Hamed did more harm than good in my opinion.

Although he still trains a lot of amateurs, his best work in the pro ranks is long behind him.

Slapsie Maxie wrote:I have to hold my hand up and admit to being a major Holyfield fan.

The fight with DMQ in the 80's did it for me. 15 rnds from two top men in peak. God, I wish I had that on tape.

One of my all time favourites. As good as David Haye looks I couldn't imagine him stepping into the ring tomorrow to engage in a 15 round war against a top world champion. Holyfield was truly special.

MightyWarrior wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote: I know from speaking to Frank Lotierzo over at eastside, who sat in on some of the conversations, that Tyson was in complete awe/fear of George Foreman. Apprently, when his handlers suggested that the deal was all but done, and that they had secured Foreman as an opponent, Tyson went ballistic and screamed at them...

"You mutherfuckers don't understand, he's faking everyone, he's playing his big friendly giant, but he's a mean mutherfucker, and I'm not fighting him, no fornicating way"

I can believe that too. Tyson's an intelligent guy and he's dead right about Foreman: a smiling faced killer.
The Steward story I remember from around the time of the rematch, in one of the many interviews Manny gives. It stuck with me as I hadn't realised he trained them both for awhile, and it was an interesting angle.

But saying that, I don't remember Manny picking Holy in the first fight. Only Ron Borges on the Boston Globe picked Holyfield in a poll of 50 writers.

Didn't Teddy Atlas pick Holyfield over Tyson in both fights?

Atlas did say before the rematch that if it doesn't go Tysoms way he may do something crazy.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:He's tarted himself around too much, and his reputation has suffered as a result. He allowed himself to be bullied by Hamed, because the pay was good, and comes in as a sort of 'guru' to help fighters out.

I am sure that any trainer worth their salt knows damned well you are not going to be able to share training duties in the way he did with Suarez, and turn out a top quality fighter, his training with Hamed did more harm than good in my opinion.

Although he still trains a lot of amateurs, his best work in the pro ranks is long behind him.

Manny's opinion also changed depending on which network he is talking too....... in Britain he thinks Britain is the best etc etc....

Too right.

Holy made that division.

Haye looks good, but I can't help thinking that it is a spent division. Anyone who can make that weight naturally is going to want to try their hand with the Heavies. Particularly now we have such a load of stiffs there.

I mean, much as I have a begrudging respect for RJJ and Toney, can anyone see them being so eager to jump in with the early 90's versions of Tyson, Holy, Bow and Lewis?

S

Kilburn wrote:

Slapsie Maxie wrote:I have to hold my hand up and admit to being a major Holyfield fan.

The fight with DMQ in the 80's did it for me. 15 rnds from two top men in peak. God, I wish I had that on tape.

One of my all time favourites. As good as David Haye looks I couldn't imagine him stepping into the ring tomorrow to engage in a 15 round war against a top world champion. Holyfield was truly special.

That was indeed a classic fight although to be fair I think Qawi was just a little past his best at Cruiserweight although still one major tough dude, I'm sure that guy was armour plated.

After that fight Holyfield was taken to hospital with massive dehydration problems, for a while they thought he may have damaged his kidneys I recall reading.

If Qawi was around today at Cruiserweight he would cut through the division like a hot knife through Butter IMO.

Yes, Qawi wasn't at his peak, though not that far past it, when he met Holyfield, who really was at the height of his physical prowess. Qawi peaked at light heavyweight, and was a little outgunned by Holy.

It was only going to take a helluva performance to take away Qawi's title though. And Evander only had 11 pro fights behind him. Hadn't even gone beyond 8 rounds.

When you look at it like that, it is a really stunning achievement, Holyfield was just awe-inspiring at cruiserweight, he seemed like the perfect fighter, like the angel of death.

I cannot think of anyone today who would go from fighting 8 to 15 rounderts (if they still had them) for a title shot against someone who was as solid as Qawi.

I think that people forget that about this fight.

It was so early in his career and very few people thought he could out gun Q.

I always consider Holy the first boxer to really make use of the science in his career.

When he went up to heavy, much was made of the regime of nutrition and training to build him up. It is astonishing now to think of him as a blown up cruiser given the fights he had with the big guys. Now the regimes he followed are standard OP's

I recall buying a copy of The Ring in November 1987 with Holy on the front. he was in such astonishing shape and had that look on his face that we all have come to recognise. it was at that point I told everyone who wouldlisten that he was going to win the HW belts. No one had even heard of him (non boxing fraternity of course )

I wish he would quit, but he was truly a one off and we wont see anyone with his match of heart and skill again, I am sure

Slapsie

I have to say, I have my doubts about the methods used by holyfield to bulk up, he sure looks like he juiced to get there, the transformation in his physique is quite incredible.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I have to say, I have my doubts about the methods used by holyfield to bulk up, he sure looks like he juiced to get there, the transformation in his physique is quite incredible.

Didn't Holyfield train with the bodybuilder Lee Hainey for a while?.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:When you look at it like that, it is a really stunning achievement, Holyfield was just awe-inspiring at cruiserweight, he seemed like the perfect fighter, like the angel of death.

I cannot think of anyone today who would go from fighting 8 to 15 rounderts (if they still had them) for a title shot against someone who was as solid as Qawi.

In many ways, the two Holyfield-Qawi fights are similar to the two Holyfield-Tyson fights.
In the first fights, both Tyson and Qawi gave their all but lost to the more determined man. Second time around, they both didn't fancy another long stint with Real Deal and bailed out in the fourth.

bennie wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:When you look at it like that, it is a really stunning achievement, Holyfield was just awe-inspiring at cruiserweight, he seemed like the perfect fighter, like the angel of death.

I cannot think of anyone today who would go from fighting 8 to 15 rounderts (if they still had them) for a title shot against someone who was as solid as Qawi.

In many ways, the two Holyfield-Qawi fights are similar to the two Holyfield-Tyson fights.
In the first fights, both Tyson and Qawi gave their all but lost to the more determined man. Second time around, they both didn't fancy another long stint with Real Deal and bailed out in the fourth.

Another factor I feel is that Holyfield like most great fighters learnt and improved from fights and so improved his performances in rematches (generally).

I have my doubts too, but there was a lot of investigation at the time, if I recall correctly.

Perhaps he was just using some juice that was not detectable back then

I certainly don't think he is a saint. He was the biter himself in a fight once, no?

Slapsie

Slapsie Maxie wrote:I certainly don't think he is a saint. He was the biter himself in a fight once, no?

As a teenage Amateur apparently.

There's certain soundbites I remember from commentators during fights e.g. "My god Jim, what punishment that Mugabi's taking... and he's still there!" - Gil Clancy, that really nail a fight for me. One of the showtime announcers says after Holyfield is introduced as the winner: "He really was the real deal tonight." I always remember that simple line. :P

As for the bite fight, I don't think anyone alive at the time will forget all the publicity and that particular image. I also think Joyce Carol Oates got it right when she said it gave Tyson, inadvertantly or not (it's up for argument), an iconic fight.

The Devil In Roy Jones wrote:As for the bite fight, I don't think anyone alive at the time will forget all the publicity and that particular image.

i think its a real shame that despite all his acheivements and talent in the ring tyson will always be remembered for two incidents, this fight and being convicted of rape. both actions he brought on himself

being bitten in fights isnt actually all that uncommon. its just that this fight was the highest profile way it could have possibly been brought to the worlds attention. i can recal quite distinctly being bitten on the shoulder in 2 amateur bouts. talking about it afterwards to other people they expressed that similar things had happened to them.

it still goes on in both ranks of boxing. the difference i suppose with tyson was the actual premeditated intent ie spitting out the gumshield and having two bites.

Let's face it, Steroid abuse is rife in a number of sports. It's only when they fornicate up and don't take the correct masking agents that we get to find out. I am sure there are plenty of atheletes who went took juice during their careers without getting caught.