BoxRec

littlepug wrote:Take away Eubank and Benn and who was Collins best win over ?

Ton Thornton? Chris Pyatt?

reggaereggae wrote:

littlepug wrote:Take away Eubank and Benn and who was Collins best win over ?

Ton Thornton? Chris Pyatt?

Agree with that, its hardly hall of fame stuff is it ?

And he bottled the Calzaghe fight, without question.

deadpan wrote:And he bottled the Calzaghe fight, without question.

Title of the thread is all about Collins wanting Jones. He was chasing the Jones fight at the tail end of his own career (bear in mind that no British fighter had the balls to) when he was promised it by his promoter. Instead he was being served up Craig Cummings and British champ up and comer Joe Calzaghe. The Collins Calzaghe situation was similar to Calzaghe Froch. Collins wanted the top dog who he could get up for not some new face on the block.

Didn't Collins pull out of a fight with Jones?

don't think its a case of no one having the balls ( benn called him out after mclellan) money is the main issue in these cases, plus jones didn't travel which you cant level at most of the british supermiddles, as for Collins chasing jones at the tail end of his career, that was Collins just trying to secure his pension.

Collins needs to get a job as a post man and he might stand a chance.

Noxy wrote:Too right it is, they're never going to meet. Collins was a brilliant fighter though and he beat Nigel and Chris fair and square twice and deserves loads of credit for it. Never mind being past it or whatever, they were no more past it than he was.

Utter horseshite.

Of course they bloody were - both men had been in lots of wars in their career, and had taken a lot of punishment. Nigel Benn lost quite a bit of himself that night with McClellan, Eubank had wars with Benn and Watson.

Collins had fewer fights, against a lower level of competition generally, and hadn't been in anything like the wars both men had, including their fights against one another. Benn was shot, plain and simple, and Eubank was some way past his best. Benn lived a mental lifestyle outside the ring, necking drugs like there was a world shortage coming, shagging everything that moved, and partying like there was no tomorrow. He was burnt out badly, and his balance was gone.

Sorry mate, but if you think that Collins wasn't fresher than both men, and by a significant margin, then you really don't know what on earth you're talking about.

deadpan wrote:And he bottled the Calzaghe fight, without question.

He had been sparked in training by Howard Eastman - and apparently was experiencing a lot of dizziness. I don't think he bottled it, I think he realised something was up. He never fought again.

All the more reason he shouldn't be thinking about fighting now.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Noxy wrote:Too right it is, they're never going to meet. Collins was a brilliant fighter though and he beat Nigel and Chris fair and square twice and deserves loads of credit for it. Never mind being past it or whatever, they were no more past it than he was.

Utter horseshite.

Of course they bloody were - both men had been in lots of wars in their career, and had taken a lot of punishment. Nigel Benn lost quite a bit of himself that night with McClellan, Eubank had wars with Benn and Watson.

Collins had fewer fights, against a lower level of competition generally, and hadn't been in anything like the wars both men had, including their fights against one another. Benn was shot, plain and simple, and Eubank was some way past his best. Benn lived a mental lifestyle outside the ring, necking drugs like there was a world shortage coming, shagging everything that moved, and partying like there was no tomorrow. He was burnt out badly, and his balance was gone.

Sorry mate, but if you think that Collins wasn't fresher than both men, and by a significant margin, then you really don't know what on earth you're talking about.

Hey man, no need to apologise. Replies are always welcome. I would have to pull you up on a few things though.
You’re exaggerating for a start. Nigel couldn’t have carried on the way you’re saying or he would have been either in rehab or dead. Although that’s not to say he didn’t enjoy his out-of-the-ring antics more than the other two. His balance wasn’t shot to pieces either or he would have boxed like a drunk against Collins. Sure he did look a bit ungainly in those fights but I think that was also a case of him putting all his weight behind his big shots (a calculated gamble).
Yes Nigel had more fights than Collins but I would bet Collins boxed more rounds. Plus early in his career Steve cut his teeth in Boston sparring people ranked higher than him whereas Benn didn’t spar much or take a lot of punishment until after Watson, when he’d already had twenty-something fights.
As for Eubank, he went on to put in strong performances post-Collins so he can’t have been that past it when they met. To me what happened in those two fights is that Collins outworked him and who’s to say that wouldn’t have happened had they met earlier.
Anyway, the point I was making was basically this - when talking about these three guys, let’s remember they were all coming to the end of their careers when they met. I don’t think it’s fair on Collins to gloss over that fact when reviewing the past.

littlepug wrote:

reggaereggae wrote:

littlepug wrote:Take away Eubank and Benn and who was Collins best win over ?

Ton Thornton? Chris Pyatt?

Agree with that, its hardly hall of fame stuff is it ?

No one's saying he's a hall of famer, don't really get the point of taking his 4 best wins away, do that to every fighter in history and their record isn't going to look as good as it was.

Noxy wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Noxy wrote:Too right it is, they're never going to meet. Collins was a brilliant fighter though and he beat Nigel and Chris fair and square twice and deserves loads of credit for it. Never mind being past it or whatever, they were no more past it than he was.

Utter horseshite.

Of course they bloody were - both men had been in lots of wars in their career, and had taken a lot of punishment. Nigel Benn lost quite a bit of himself that night with McClellan, Eubank had wars with Benn and Watson.

Collins had fewer fights, against a lower level of competition generally, and hadn't been in anything like the wars both men had, including their fights against one another. Benn was shot, plain and simple, and Eubank was some way past his best. Benn lived a mental lifestyle outside the ring, necking drugs like there was a world shortage coming, shagging everything that moved, and partying like there was no tomorrow. He was burnt out badly, and his balance was gone.

Sorry mate, but if you think that Collins wasn't fresher than both men, and by a significant margin, then you really don't know what on earth you're talking about.

Hey man, no need to apologise. Replies are always welcome. I would have to pull you up on a few things though.
You’re exaggerating for a start. Nigel couldn’t have carried on the way you’re saying or he would have been either in rehab or dead. Although that’s not to say he didn’t enjoy his out-of-the-ring antics more than the other two. His balance wasn’t shot to pieces either or he would have boxed like a drunk against Collins. Sure he did look a bit ungainly in those fights but I think that was also a case of him putting all his weight behind his big shots (a calculated gamble).
Yes Nigel had more fights than Collins but I would bet Collins boxed more rounds. Plus early in his career Steve cut his teeth in Boston sparring people ranked higher than him whereas Benn didn’t spar much or take a lot of punishment until after Watson, when he’d already had twenty-something fights.
As for Eubank, he went on to put in strong performances post-Collins so he can’t have been that past it when they met. To me what happened in those two fights is that Collins outworked him and who’s to say that wouldn’t have happened had they met earlier.
Anyway, the point I was making was basically this - when talking about these three guys, let’s remember they were all coming to the end of their careers when they met. I don’t think it’s fair on Collins to gloss over that fact when reviewing the past.

I know that Collins was a very good fighter - but he definitely had less wear and tear that those two men. Benn was living a crazy life around that time, and had been for a long time - you'd be surprised how long people can live like that, especially when they are doing lots of exercise. I know people who've been caning it for 20 years - some people are just pretty bullet proof. Look at Jonny Tapia.

I'm aware that Benn wasn't keen on sparring, but I think in his early career he did quite a lot, but decided later to knock it on the head.

Perhaps I need to rewatch it, but I recall Benn falling about a lot when punching, he was never the most agile of men, but his balance looked way off, as did his timing for that fight. I think Benn decided to cash out myself in those two fights. Obviously just my opinion. Eubank lost his killer instinct after Watson, he was still tough as old boots, as he proved against Thompson.

Noxy wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Noxy wrote:Too right it is, they're never going to meet. Collins was a brilliant fighter though and he beat Nigel and Chris fair and square twice and deserves loads of credit for it. Never mind being past it or whatever, they were no more past it than he was.

Utter horseshite.

Of course they bloody were - both men had been in lots of wars in their career, and had taken a lot of punishment. Nigel Benn lost quite a bit of himself that night with McClellan, Eubank had wars with Benn and Watson.

Collins had fewer fights, against a lower level of competition generally, and hadn't been in anything like the wars both men had, including their fights against one another. Benn was shot, plain and simple, and Eubank was some way past his best. Benn lived a mental lifestyle outside the ring, necking drugs like there was a world shortage coming, shagging everything that moved, and partying like there was no tomorrow. He was burnt out badly, and his balance was gone.

Sorry mate, but if you think that Collins wasn't fresher than both men, and by a significant margin, then you really don't know what on earth you're talking about.

Hey man, no need to apologise. Replies are always welcome. I would have to pull you up on a few things though.
You’re exaggerating for a start. Nigel couldn’t have carried on the way you’re saying or he would have been either in rehab or dead. Although that’s not to say he didn’t enjoy his out-of-the-ring antics more than the other two. His balance wasn’t shot to pieces either or he would have boxed like a drunk against Collins. Sure he did look a bit ungainly in those fights but I think that was also a case of him putting all his weight behind his big shots (a calculated gamble).
Yes Nigel had more fights than Collins but I would bet Collins boxed more rounds. Plus early in his career Steve cut his teeth in Boston sparring people ranked higher than him whereas Benn didn’t spar much or take a lot of punishment until after Watson, when he’d already had twenty-something fights.
As for Eubank, he went on to put in strong performances post-Collins so he can’t have been that past it when they met. To me what happened in those two fights is that Collins outworked him and who’s to say that wouldn’t have happened had they met earlier.
Anyway, the point I was making was basically this - when talking about these three guys, let’s remember they were all coming to the end of their careers when they met. I don’t think it’s fair on Collins to gloss over that fact when reviewing the past.

You don't have to be literally boxing like a drunk in order to have serious balance issues. Benn had far more wear and tear psychologically and physically over the course of his career than Collins. It only requires basic knowledge of the era to understand that.

Eubanks problems were all mental. Largely caused by the Watson fight but also by his exhausting schedule of fighting 6 times in the year leading up to the Collins fight. Add to that his brutal sparring regime. By this time he was winning fights by prodding and posing - as I said earlier he was as good as beaten against Schommer and Close. Guys he would easily have dealt with in his prime.

Collins was a tough guy and mentally very strong. But I don't see him beating Benn or Eubank in their primes.

Manchester Hitman wrote:Collins has always been a strange fella. His
Obsession with Jones is irritating - Roy would have completely outboxed him easily if they would have fought when it was a remote possibility all those years ago. it is not a 'what if' fight nobody apart from Collins gives a monkeys or even thinks about it not happening.

I remember the Super middle weights special on
Sky a few years ago which had jones, Collins, Calzaghe and Eubank. I remember felling particularly annoyed that Collins spent the majority of the time trying to goad Jones into a fight and the other half was Johnny Nelson going on about how Joe was undefeated beating up Tocker Pudwils he was the greatest! It was an absolute travesty - Jones would have destroyed them all easily (the version Joe beat was shot to hell)

Well said, it was a great round table discussion but i share your views, Calzaghe was treated like a fcuking demigod when it is highly unlikely he would ever have fought a prime Jones, Eubank, Collins, Toney or Bennn had their primes met around the same time. Collins attitude towards Jones is moronic, his mother should slap him.

Right, so you share this preoccupation with Nigel's balance, is that it? He had trouble with his boots first time, second time his balance was as good as Collins and he was a champion so how was it so bad? To be fair to Benn though, he was a faded force when he faced Collins. He showed flashes of what he could do and he hit Collins hard, then Steve upped the pace and took over. The old Benn wouldn't have stood for that so easily. To be fair to Collins, he handled Benn quite well so who's to say he wouldn't have beaten a prime Benn? We'll never know.

As for Eubank, sure he got lucky a few times but don't denigrate his performances by saying he prodded and posed (implying he fiddled his way through all those fights) and then picking just two fights out of all the ones he had. What about the second Close fight for example. Sure preening and posing was part of his make-up but he did a lot more than that, as you have to do at that level.

To me the most interesting sentence of your post is the last one where you say you back a peak Eubank and Benn over Collins. You could be right, I don't think you are, but who's to say. The thing I don't like though is when people try to put Steve down by belittling what he did. It's uncool. It's not borne out by his career either.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

deadpan wrote:And he bottled the Calzaghe fight, without question.

He had been sparked in training by Howard Eastman - and apparently was experiencing a lot of dizziness. I don't think he bottled it, I think he realised something was up. He never fought again.

All the more reason he shouldn't be thinking about fighting now.

I knew about the Eastman kayo. I believe he'd have fought on for another payday if Calzaghe hadn't been on a knockout streak, though I'm certainly more inclined to accept your rationale for his retirement than Ketchel's.

Benn is pretty open about the fact he was caning the dip throughout his peak years, he was dj'ing all over the country every Saturday night, too. And, as I said earlier, he never trained for the Collins rematch, and that's from the horses mouth.

deadpan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

deadpan wrote:And he bottled the Calzaghe fight, without question.

He had been sparked in training by Howard Eastman - and apparently was experiencing a lot of dizziness. I don't think he bottled it, I think he realised something was up. He never fought again.

All the more reason he shouldn't be thinking about fighting now.

I knew about the Eastman kayo. I believe he'd have fought on for another payday if Calzaghe hadn't been on a knockout streak, though I'm certainly more inclined to accept your rationale for his retirement than Ketchel's.

Yes, quite possibly, he could though have continued to fight after avoiding the Calzaghe fight, the fact he didn't tells it's own story I think.

mickey1975 wrote:Benn is pretty open about the fact he was caning the dip throughout his peak years, he was dj'ing all over the country every Saturday night, too. And, as I said earlier, he never trained for the Collins rematch, and that's from the horses mouth.

I would always take what comes from a fighter mouth with a pinch of salt, the stuff about caning it is definitely true though as I had mates who saw him during his DJing and partying days, so that's beyond doubt, and there's photos out there of him. Whether he trained or not for the fight, who knows.

Noxy wrote:Right, so you share this preoccupation with Nigel's balance, is that it? He had trouble with his boots first time, second time his balance was as good as Collins and he was a champion so how was it so bad? To be fair to Benn though, he was a faded force when he faced Collins. He showed flashes of what he could do and he hit Collins hard, then Steve upped the pace and took over. The old Benn wouldn't have stood for that so easily. To be fair to Collins, he handled Benn quite well so who's to say he wouldn't have beaten a prime Benn? We'll never know.

As for Eubank, sure he got lucky a few times but don't denigrate his performances by saying he prodded and posed (implying he fiddled his way through all those fights) and then picking just two fights out of all the ones he had. What about the second Close fight for example. Sure preening and posing was part of his make-up but he did a lot more than that, as you have to do at that level.

To me the most interesting sentence of your post is the last one where you say you back a peak Eubank and Benn over Collins. You could be right, I don't think you are, but who's to say. The thing I don't like though is when people try to put Steve down by belittling what he did. It's uncool. It's not borne out by his career either.

My key point about Benn is that he was shot and, as it happened, his balance did look dodgy. Your key point was that both Benn and Eubank were no more past it than Collins at the time they fought. That doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Regarding Eubank, what I mean by 'prodded and posed' is that he was happy to do just enough to win fights and that he'd lost the desire to really hurt opponents. I remember watching the fights, they made for hugely frustrating viewing.

Collins was a hard man no doubt. I have no reason to want to denigrate his performances, but for me it denigrates Benn and Eubank to suggest that, at the back end of hard careers where they'd both had their gruelling career-defining fights, they were physically and mentally as fresh as Collins. When Collins fought Eubank and Benn, those were HIS career defining fights, not theirs.

I knew about the Eastman kayo. I believe he'd have fought on for another payday if Calzaghe hadn't been on a knockout streak, though I'm certainly more inclined to accept your rationale for his retirement than Ketchel's.

[/quote]

Yes, quite possibly, he could though have continued to fight after avoiding the Calzaghe fight, the fact he didn't tells it's own story I think.[/quote

]

James, the Howard Eastman incident did not happen prior to the Collins title defence against Calzaghe but later in a proposed comeback bout that would lead to a Calzaghe fight:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/boxi ... 93160.html

Deadpan I still believe my rationale for Collin's retirement and his reason for contributing to his continued chasing of the Jones fight no matter how foolish it now looks.

Easy to be wise after the mistake, but the Eastman kayo was nagging me as to when it happened. But I was too lazy to check.

We'll agree to disagree over Steve's reasons for not having the Calzaghe fight Ketchel, but well done for kicking my ass with the Eastman facts.

Ketchel is a cool name too.

How did Collins miss a fight with Jones Jr in 1990s?

I don't ever remember a time when they were mooted to fight or any type of clamour for it.

Collins was tough, no doubt, but he wasn't box-office.

I think Collins is suffering some sort of concussion if he thinks that the world wants to watch two 50 year old has-beens duking it out two decades after nobody gave a damn whether they fought or not in the first place.

All of the above!

Eastman knocked out Herol Graham in sparring as well though he wouldn't spar again when Herol turned up the next day.