BoxRec

Never really enjoyed viewing Mayweather fights. Defense first fighters bore me.

No, not the best ever.

Best so far of the 21st century though, and a truly excellent talent all the same.

I'd have himsomewhere in the Top 20 All Time personally. I could see a case for him being Top 15.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:27 No, not the best ever.

Best so far of the 21st century though, and a truly excellent talent all the same.

I'd have himsomewhere in the Top 20 All Time personally. I could see a case for him being Top 15.

Agreed, but a bad "watch."

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:28

gilgamesh wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:27 No, not the best ever.

Best so far of the 21st century though, and a truly excellent talent all the same.

I'd have himsomewhere in the Top 20 All Time personally. I could see a case for him being Top 15.

Agreed, but a bad "watch."

A great deal of the time yes. He had a few exciting fights, but not too many.

He certainly wouldn't be on the Top 100 of a "Most Entertaining fighters of all time" list.

Speaking of which, that'd be a fun list.

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:11 Never really enjoyed viewing Mayweather fights. Defense first fighters bore me.

Don't you like fury?

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:30

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:11 Never really enjoyed viewing Mayweather fights. Defense first fighters bore me.

Don't you like fury?

lol, Nope. He's a funny guy, but I'm a Wilder fan at HW.

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:30

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:30

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:11 Never really enjoyed viewing Mayweather fights. Defense first fighters bore me.

Don't you like fury?

lol, Nope. He's a funny guy, but I'm a Wilder fan at HW.

I became one because the people on this board are so ridiculously against him. The most irrational haters I've ever encountered.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:45

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:30

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:30

Don't you like fury?

lol, Nope. He's a funny guy, but I'm a Wilder fan at HW.

I became one because the people on this board are so ridiculously against him. The most irrational haters I've ever encountered.

I have no ill feelings towards him in or out of the ring. He comes to fight (except v. Wlad and that got him the belts) most every fight and puts on a great pre-fight show. I give him much respect for what he has overcome to get to this point. I'd be surprised but not completely shocked if he pulled out a good showing against Wilder next week. Would have liked to have seen him not miss so much time.

I was talking about wilder this place thinks fury is Floyd.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:50 I was talking about wilder this place thinks fury is Floyd.

LMAO! Ok fair enough. Fury used to get way more accolades. But while it's not as much as before I agree that he is getting too much benefit recently. Wilder will stiff him but good.

This match up is all wrong for him. His defense is moving and size. He's going to be on a hl reel for years. I'm sensing some hearns/Duran type stuff.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:55 This match up is all wrong for him. His defense is moving and size. He's going to be on a hl reel for years. I'm sensing some hearns/Duran type stuff.

He'll be a sucker for the overhand right. I also feel like we'll see the Wilder jab we saw in Stiverne II to setup the right.

Outside of Ortiz.... Who has Wilder really fought though?.... Virtually all of his title defenses were against top 30'ish opponents. No cream de la cream there.

Anyways this is about Mayweather.

How about hypotheticals against the champion Lightweight & Welterweight of the passed fifty years?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 19:59
Anyways this is about Mayweather.

How about hypotheticals against the champion Lightweight & Welterweight of the passed fifty years?

Would have liked to see him for example against Jose Napoles

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 19:59 Outside of Ortiz.... Who has Wilder really fought though?.... Virtually all of his title defenses were against top 30'ish opponents. No cream de la cream there.

Anyways this is about Mayweather.

How about hypotheticals against the champion Lightweight & Welterweight of the passed fifty years?

Other than wlad, who has Tyson really fought? You might cry next week. Lol

He's not in the discussion. He's a great fighter IMO and I am confident of him being top 50 but top 40 would be arguable and top 30 seems a little far fetched for me.

He simply didn't face a wide enough range of styles and played it safe both in selection of opposition and in the ring. I have a genuine belief he made sure not to really fight fast fighters and particularly those with good movement because he sort of had a "cheat code" to deal with slower, more predictable styles that were in his comfort zone. He'd get into a 1 or 2 point lead and then play out the clock. He did it all in his adopted backyard with just about everything stacked in his favor.

I know some people, mainly his wacky fans think he's unbeatable but in Boxing styles make fights and you face them all and often you'll find one or two that give you fits. I wouldn't give him a chance of beating Tommy Hearns and Luis Rodriguez for example and those two aren't considered the #1 welterweight of their era. I don't think he'd have much of a shot against Pernell Whitaker, Sugar Ray Leonard and Jose Napoles too, for example.

He played the game really, really well and credit to him for that but when it comes to all-time ranking that type of caution and the fact there's still a lot we don't know if he could handle means he's just not in the best ever discussion.

I've noticed that there's a lot of skepticism about the likes of Marciano, Mayweather Jr. and Calzaghe, who have a clean record but are not supposed to have met adequate opposition, anyway if I look at the fashion in which those three above named boxers have won their own fights - the total control they had above every aspect of their own profession - I reckon that they could have done much more than they actually did: I'm not saying that they are underachievers, but if they would have been tested more hardly, they probably would have done great nevertheless, because they were great professionals to start with... Fighters that could pretty much adapt to their opponents' styles.

Mayweather has met top-notch fighters, not all in their prime, some not-so-slow but not very big as well, like Marquez, who anyhow floored none other than Pacquiao, in a pretty much old-fashioned, unquestionable way. Judah was no Pernell Whitaker, but if really styles make fights (I would actually say that pretty much athletic conditioning makes fights, rather than styles: you could be as much stylish as you can be, but if you run out of breath in the middle of a fight, you'll get your ass beaten by much less-stylish fighters than you are...), and if Mayweather Jr. was able to adapt to Judah's style, he might have also adapted to Whitaker's style.

Mayweather Jr.'s work ethics, ring I.Q., and infrastructural means (the fact that he could have his own gym open at any hour, any day, under any circumstances... Not sure if all great fighters can afford that), made him one of the best men in the sport to me. Maybe I'm biased by the fact that I lived in Floyd Jr.'s era, and probably if I'll watch thoroughly some videos of older fighters I would change my mind, but by know I feel I have seen enough to state what I've stated.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2018, 13:19 I know some people, mainly his wacky fans think he's unbeatable but in Boxing styles make fights and you face them all and often you'll find one or two that give you fits. I wouldn't give him a chance of beating Tommy Hearns and Luis Rodriguez for example and those two aren't considered the #1 welterweight of their era. I don't think he'd have much of a shot against Pernell Whitaker, Sugar Ray Leonard and Jose Napoles too, for example.

Rodriguez lost against most of the great ones he faced... Tough, but not really bread for Floyd's teeth in my humble opinion: you could've named Duilio Loi at super-lightweight for example, to make a better impression.

I doubt that Pernell Whitaker could've even have handled hard-hitting, fast-handed Pacquiao, considering that he couldn't handle De La Hoya (which was younger than Pernell, but Pernell wasn't enough past his prime either to call it a cherry pick). Imagine how he could have figured against Jr.... Floyd would've probably driven Whitaker nuts, specially at welterweight.

Leonard lost to a not-unbeatable Terry Norris at an age where Floyd was still the best p4p boxer in the world... Do you see Floyd losing to the likes of the still-great (but not in the league of Floyd) Terry Norris..?

Hearns had a draw with shorter, naturally lighter above named Leonard.

Napoles... That makes more of a point than the previously named ones: the guy just had "the balls" to give Floyd some tough opposition... If conditioned enough... Conditioning, game plan and psychological balance would play key roles in a fantasy match between those two. Fair pick.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2018, 13:19 He simply didn't face a wide enough range of styles and played it safe both in selection of opposition and in the ring. I have a genuine belief he made sure not to really fight fast fighters and particularly those with good movement because he sort of had a "cheat code" to deal with slower, more predictable styles that were in his comfort zone. He'd get into a 1 or 2 point lead and then play out the clock. He did it all in his adopted backyard with just about everything stacked in his favor.

That could arguably make sense... I'm not in the business, but I can believe that Floyd was quite influential on the boxing environment, anyway I don't really know about him really ducking anyone, and I've never felt like the judges had made controversial decisions in any of his fights.

Jacopodb wrote: ↑25 Nov 2018, 17:49

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2018, 13:19 I know some people, mainly his wacky fans think he's unbeatable but in Boxing styles make fights and you face them all and often you'll find one or two that give you fits. I wouldn't give him a chance of beating Tommy Hearns and Luis Rodriguez for example and those two aren't considered the #1 welterweight of their era. I don't think he'd have much of a shot against Pernell Whitaker, Sugar Ray Leonard and Jose Napoles too, for example.

Rodriguez lost against most of the great ones he faced... Tough, but not really bread for Floyd's teeth in my humble opinion: you could've named Duilio Loi at super-lightweight for example, to make a better impression.

I doubt that Pernell Whitaker could've even have handled hard-hitting, fast-handed Pacquiao, considering that he couldn't handle De La Hoya (which was younger than Pernell, but Pernell wasn't enough past his prime either to call it a cherry pick). Imagine how he could have figured against Jr.... Floyd would've probably driven Whitaker nuts, specially at welterweight.

Leonard lost to a not-unbeatable Terry Norris at an age where Floyd was still the best p4p boxer in the world... Do you see Floyd losing to the likes of the still-great (but not in the league of Floyd) Terry Norris..?

Hearns had a draw with shorter, naturally lighter above named Leonard.

Napoles... That makes more of a point than the previously named ones: the guy just had "the balls" to give Floyd some tough opposition... If conditioned enough... Conditioning, game plan and psychological balance would play key roles in a fantasy match between those two. Fair pick.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑25 Nov 2018, 13:19 He simply didn't face a wide enough range of styles and played it safe both in selection of opposition and in the ring. I have a genuine belief he made sure not to really fight fast fighters and particularly those with good movement because he sort of had a "cheat code" to deal with slower, more predictable styles that were in his comfort zone. He'd get into a 1 or 2 point lead and then play out the clock. He did it all in his adopted backyard with just about everything stacked in his favor.

That could arguably make sense... I'm not in the business, but I can believe that Floyd was quite influential on the boxing environment, anyway I don't really know about him really ducking anyone, and I've never felt like the judges had made controversial decisions in any of his fights.

Rodriguez beat a ton of top level and elite fighters and he often did it with just a couple weeks notice and often being outweighed as he would take countless fights at middleweight against elite guys. He'd often do it on the road too and dominate. I have a question. Have you seen the Griffith fights and if so, do you actually agree with the judges scores in those fights? Not saying that to be rude but it's common knowledge that he was robbed at least once but arguably/probably three times. I'm not sure Floyd could have beaten Griffith especially since he found the rough tactics and inside games of Maidana and Castillo so difficult.

Rodriguez is a nightmare for Floyd. He's taller, has a really long reach and he's always moving and throwing. Floyd isn't going to try and force an inside fight or come close to hurting him so he'd just get outpointed handily.

Would the later Floyd have beaten a peak Norris? No I don't think so. Norris had tons of speed, athleticism and power. I don't think Floyd even takes that fight and by then Ray had already peaked years prior. Fighters peaked at different times in different era's the age "he was the same age" stuff doesn't really hold much water.

Hearns drawing or losing to Leonard shouldn't be used as a knock. Leonard was an incredible fighter. A sure top 20 all-time.

Top 10, top 20.

The old timers, as others have alluded to, fought so much more often.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:19 Rodriguez beat a ton of top level and elite fighters and he often did it with just a couple weeks notice and often being outweighed as he would take countless fights at middleweight against elite guys. He'd often do it on the road too and dominate. I have a question. Have you seen the Griffith fights and if so, do you actually agree with the judges scores in those fights? Not saying that to be rude but it's common knowledge that he was robbed at least once but arguably/probably three times. I'm not sure Floyd could have beaten Griffith especially since he found the rough tactics and inside games of Maidana and Castillo so difficult.

Rodriguez is a nightmare for Floyd. He's taller, has a really long reach and he's always moving and throwing. Floyd isn't going to try and force an inside fight or come close to hurting him so he'd just get outpointed handily.

Would the later Floyd have beaten a peak Norris? No I don't think so. Norris had tons of speed, athleticism and power. I don't think Floyd even takes that fight and by then Ray had already peaked years prior. Fighters peaked at different times in different era's the age "he was the same age" stuff doesn't really hold much water.

Hearns drawing or losing to Leonard shouldn't be used as a knock. Leonard was an incredible fighter. A sure top 20 all-time.

You made some excellent points there: Floyd suffered with most of the big names he faced, of every age and style... He suffered: older, out-fighting Mosley, the punching power of Cotto and Canelo, Judah's pressure-fighting, Maidana's relentless in-fighting as you've said, and there might be more...

I'm still not sure about Rodriguez and Norris... I don't know them well and need to analyse their features better... whenever I'll get a better internet connection...

I still haven't watched the Griffith-Rodriguez fights, but I'll soon do and report

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:19 Rodriguez beat a ton of top level and elite fighters and he often did it with just a couple weeks notice and often being outweighed as he would take countless fights at middleweight against elite guys. He'd often do it on the road too and dominate. I have a question. Have you seen the Griffith fights and if so, do you actually agree with the judges scores in those fights? Not saying that to be rude but it's common knowledge that he was robbed at least once but arguably/probably three times. I'm not sure Floyd could have beaten Griffith especially since he found the rough tactics and inside games of Maidana and Castillo so difficult.

Rodriguez is a nightmare for Floyd. He's taller, has a really long reach and he's always moving and throwing. Floyd isn't going to try and force an inside fight or come close to hurting him so he'd just get outpointed handily.

Would the later Floyd have beaten a peak Norris? No I don't think so. Norris had tons of speed, athleticism and power. I don't think Floyd even takes that fight and by then Ray had already peaked years prior. Fighters peaked at different times in different era's the age "he was the same age" stuff doesn't really hold much water.

Hearns drawing or losing to Leonard shouldn't be used as a knock. Leonard was an incredible fighter. A sure top 20

I've checked Rodriguez again and he's got an impressive record, but I still feel that Floyd fought better opposition: maybe it's my ignorance talking, and if you have an argument against my statement I'll gladly read it: Briscoe and hurricane Carter are big names, but I reckon that Canelo, by the end of his career, will be considered better than both, for example.

Beating Griffith was as tough as a job he ever did: Griffith had great heart and was tough as nails... he would have given Mayweather the fight of his life, in his prime. But Griffith fatigued against class opposition (props to him for going middleweight anyway, Floyd never took such a leap).

I'll check again when I'll have seen the controversy between Griffith and Rodriguez.

Jacopodb wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 16:27

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:19 Rodriguez beat a ton of top level and elite fighters and he often did it with just a couple weeks notice and often being outweighed as he would take countless fights at middleweight against elite guys. He'd often do it on the road too and dominate. I have a question. Have you seen the Griffith fights and if so, do you actually agree with the judges scores in those fights? Not saying that to be rude but it's common knowledge that he was robbed at least once but arguably/probably three times. I'm not sure Floyd could have beaten Griffith especially since he found the rough tactics and inside games of Maidana and Castillo so difficult.

Rodriguez is a nightmare for Floyd. He's taller, has a really long reach and he's always moving and throwing. Floyd isn't going to try and force an inside fight or come close to hurting him so he'd just get outpointed handily.

Would the later Floyd have beaten a peak Norris? No I don't think so. Norris had tons of speed, athleticism and power. I don't think Floyd even takes that fight and by then Ray had already peaked years prior. Fighters peaked at different times in different era's the age "he was the same age" stuff doesn't really hold much water.

Hearns drawing or losing to Leonard shouldn't be used as a knock. Leonard was an incredible fighter. A sure top 20

I've checked Rodriguez again and he's got an impressive record, but I still feel that Floyd fought better opposition: maybe it's my ignorance talking, and if you have an argument against my statement I'll gladly read it: Briscoe and hurricane Carter are big names, but I reckon that Canelo, by the end of his career, will be considered better than both, for example.

Beating Griffith was as tough as a job he ever did: Griffith had great heart and was tough as nails... he would have given Mayweather the fight of his life, in his prime. But Griffith fatigued against class opposition (props to him for going middleweight anyway, Floyd never took such a leap).

I'll check again when I'll have seen the controversy between Griffith and Rodriguez.

Canelo may well go onto having a "better career" but the 2013 Canelo was not as good as Briscoe or Carter or as good as George Benton. I compiled a list of Rodriguez' top opposition fought and a lot of it is prime and where he jumped up in between welterweight fights giving away a lot in size.

Benny "Kid" Paret (two wins)
Charley Scott
Kid Fichique
Joe Miceli
Cecil Shorts
Virgil Akins (two wins)
Rudell Stitch
Isaac Logart
Garnett Hart
Carl Hubbard
Chico Vejar
Yama Bahama (two wins)
Johnny Gonsalves (two wins)
Curtis Cokes
Emile Griffith
Jose Gonzalez
Federico Thompson
Ricardo Falech
Gene Armstrong
Joey Giambra
Holley Mims
Denny Moyer
Wilbert McClure (two wins)
Jesse Smith
L.C Morgan
Rubin Carter (two wins)
George Benton
Bennie Briscoe (two wins)
Manuel Alvarez
Percy Manning
Rocky Rivero
Jimmy Lester
Ferd Hernandez
Vicente Rondon
Joe Shaw
Rafael Gutierrez
Tom Bethea
Willie Warren
Fraser Scott
Tony Mundine
Davey Hilton

So roughly 41 fighters of good or excellent quality for 48 wins. Maybe I am missing 3 or 4 too.

Jacopodb wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 15:52

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑26 Nov 2018, 11:19 Rodriguez beat a ton of top level and elite fighters and he often did it with just a couple weeks notice and often being outweighed as he would take countless fights at middleweight against elite guys. He'd often do it on the road too and dominate. I have a question. Have you seen the Griffith fights and if so, do you actually agree with the judges scores in those fights? Not saying that to be rude but it's common knowledge that he was robbed at least once but arguably/probably three times. I'm not sure Floyd could have beaten Griffith especially since he found the rough tactics and inside games of Maidana and Castillo so difficult.

Rodriguez is a nightmare for Floyd. He's taller, has a really long reach and he's always moving and throwing. Floyd isn't going to try and force an inside fight or come close to hurting him so he'd just get outpointed handily.

Would the later Floyd have beaten a peak Norris? No I don't think so. Norris had tons of speed, athleticism and power. I don't think Floyd even takes that fight and by then Ray had already peaked years prior. Fighters peaked at different times in different era's the age "he was the same age" stuff doesn't really hold much water.

Hearns drawing or losing to Leonard shouldn't be used as a knock. Leonard was an incredible fighter. A sure top 20 all-time.

You made some excellent points there: Floyd suffered with most of the big names he faced, of every age and style... He suffered: older, out-fighting Mosley, the punching power of Cotto and Canelo, Judah's pressure-fighting, Maidana's relentless in-fighting as you've said, and there might be more...

I'm still not sure about Rodriguez and Norris... I don't know them well and need to analyse their features better... whenever I'll get a better internet connection...

I still haven't watched the Griffith-Rodriguez fights, but I'll soon do and report

The 1st, 3rd and 4th are on youtube. I can upload the 4th there's another poster who wanted it so I may do that this weekend if I can get the time.

oogiebe wrote: ↑24 Nov 2018, 18:11 Never really enjoyed viewing Mayweather fights. Defense first fighters bore me.

Personally, I've always had a taste for his technical (and athletic) proficiency... he was also one heck of a powerpuncher to tell the truth...