BoxRec

Im surprised that more people arent aiming towards the 'lack of stamina' option.

Leaving Booth.

Groves clearly isn't possessed with naturally high fitness levels and is very tense in the ring, with a lot of twitchy movements. Booth developed a style around that with Groves fighting mostly on the back foot, low workrate with a lot of sharp counters and feints, loading up on punches and relying on speed and timing to hurt opponents.

Paddy Fitzpatrick clearly wants him to fight in a different way, onto the front foot with a higher workrate, but a lot of the old stuff he learned with Booth is getting in the way. He still puts too much into his punches so he's unable to sustain the workrate over 12 rounds and because he's on the front foot he isn't catching opponents coming in like he used to, so finds it much harder to hurt them and as he tires later in the fight, he begins to lose his form when punching, so he carries even less power as he doesn't have huge natural power. The lack of fitness also allows him to be picked off and outworked by fresher opponents.

He's too set in his ways at this stage to change style and it doesn't actually suit him to fight the way he's trying to.

Bob Mee tweeting that Groves /Sauerlands are trying to force a rematch outside of Nevada due to the WBC having a US ref and 2 US judges which is contrary to their rules.

Its not just psychological but also physical. Getting knocked out like that often takes toll on your punch resistance. I dont think he would get knocked down with that shot in the 1st round against Jack before the Froch fight.

Adam booth I also a factor. I vote for the first to options.

In the first fight be basically knocked out Froch, who was steaming in like an idiot with his hands down, with probably the best punch he ever threw. Froch got up though and, still spangled, shipped a ton of punishment I'm sure because he hadn't really recovered. I think the mistake people made was in thinking that was George completely out boxing Froch, when you have to consider that Froch was probably completely out of it and that's a huge factor in why George looked so good. Testament to Froch's crazy chin, he came on strong after he started to recover, although we'll never know how it would have ended if he hadn't been stopped.

I don't know about what George thinks about that fight. Only he knows how out of it he was when he got stopped. However, even though he went on and on about how much better he was than Froch, he certainly changed tactics for the rematch in a way that acknowledged the way he was supposedly stopped: that he couldn't actually knock Froch out with a barrage and that he would tire down the stretch and do needed to conserve energy. So he he told everyone that he had the beating of Froch, maybe told himself he had the beating of Froch, and then chose tactically to fight in a way that addressed all the reasons he was given the loss the first time, despite crying robbery.

So he got beat fighting two different ways. I don't know... It's all speculation. I always thought he was fragile: look at the Degale fight. Degale hurt George and George never bothered Degale. Smith hurt him. Kenny Anderson hurt him. George has never been iron chinned or invincible. Probably even the second Froch fight flattered him because Froch treated him with maximum caution in the early running and was taking him into deep water going to the body. It was close, I had Froch up. But a stoppage was in the post. Froch just had the better game plan.

I also think Jack was probably juicing. He has his first round KO loss, sees his future disappear, and gets on the gear. Honestly, don't any of you think that too? His reversal of fortune had been remarkable. He's fought two world class guys back to back that have fought like dogshit, but I just can't help thinking. You know how fighters who are juicing seem to develop better chins? Groves and Dirrell can both hit and were both supposed to KO him. I say this not as a big Groves fan because I dislike him now which is a shame. I'd like to have seen him rematch Degale (who I do like) because I want Degale to get his recognition. I guess he'll have to do it the tough way, like Froch did. But yeah, combination of Groves being on the slide and Jack having the special shakes I think.

As long as he still has the hunger and desire, groves will
Be back as he is popular and character and a ticket seller.
Feel he needs to get back with booth and still to using that 'spiteful' jab and moving more - his head movement too seems to of laxed off also!

Never heard of juicing giving you a better chin ?

I think leaving Booth is the biggest factor, although I think he does have some stamina issues too.

Groves is a good fighter that is in the curious position of being too good for domestic & probably European level, but not quite good enough for world level.

It's not all over for him though, as he can be comforted in the knowledge that he holds a victory over a current trinket holder & old nemesis, Degale.

Their fight was very close & could have gone either way & I'm not so sure he'd beat Degale now, but he definitely needs to reunite with Booth if he is to make the transition into true world class level.

craigjenkins05 wrote:Never heard of juicing giving you a better chin ?

No, it looks to me like he has improved his defence considerably, neither Dirrel or Groves were able to land many clean shots on him.

Iv only seen him against dirrel and groves and although they didn't fight to their best I think jack is alot better than people give him credit for

Paddy thinks George will benefit from a new coach.
http://www.clarechampion.ie/groves-can- ... new-coach/

For what it's worth, I think Groves beats Abraham. And I'm not fully sold on the idea that Groves fades late on. I think it's fair to say that he looks tired late on, more so than other fighters. But objectively speaking, his work rate is up there in the later rounds as compared to other fighters.

Jedz910 wrote:Paddy thinks George will benefit from a new coach.
http://www.clarechampion.ie/groves-can- ... new-coach/

For what it's worth, I think Groves beats Abraham. And I'm not fully sold on the idea that Groves fades late on. I think it's fair to say that he looks tired late on, more so than other fighters. But objectively speaking, his work rate is up there in the later rounds as compared to other fighters.

Be music to Froch's ears that Fitzpatrick thinks Groves needs to speak to a sports psychologist.

keirw wrote:

craigjenkins05 wrote:Never heard of juicing giving you a better chin ?

No, it looks to me like he has improved his defence considerably, neither Dirrel or Groves were able to land many clean shots on him.

Lamont Peterson took a better shot when juicing I m o

I know a lot of steroids head and my many that can take a punch, a quick Google suggests they don't help punch resistance and don't see why they would?

danamba7 wrote:

samwbr wrote:Groves was not winning the second Froch fight, either convincingly or closely.

Yeah I've heard a few people say that before but I just dont see it. Fairy close tentative fight, Groves caught Froch a couple of times, Froch had some decent attacks to the body. Groves wasn't winning IMO.

I had Groves up 5-2 and thought he was outboxing Froch for the most part. In my opinion GG was consistently landing more and I believe that some people gave Froch far too much credit for occasional charges (the Froch warrior charges that is) that forced GG back but were typically quite inaccurate. I also think the markedly pro-Froch commentary helped swing opinion in his favor a bit.

I even saw quite a few people suggest, unsurprisingly like Jim Watt, that Froch controlled things with his jab, which is a laughable suggestion based on what actually happened.

clopixolacuphase wrote:In the first fight be basically knocked out Froch, who was steaming in like an idiot with his hands down, with probably the best punch he ever threw. Froch got up though and, still spangled, shipped a ton of punishment I'm sure because he hadn't really recovered. I think the mistake people made was in thinking that was George completely out boxing Froch, when you have to consider that Froch was probably completely out of it and that's a huge factor in why George looked so good. Testament to Froch's crazy chin, he came on strong after he started to recover, although we'll never know how it would have ended if he hadn't been stopped.

I don't know about what George thinks about that fight. Only he knows how out of it he was when he got stopped. However, even though he went on and on about how much better he was than Froch, he certainly changed tactics for the rematch in a way that acknowledged the way he was supposedly stopped: that he couldn't actually knock Froch out with a barrage and that he would tire down the stretch and do needed to conserve energy. So he he told everyone that he had the beating of Froch, maybe told himself he had the beating of Froch, and then chose tactically to fight in a way that addressed all the reasons he was given the loss the first time, despite crying robbery.

So he got beat fighting two different ways. I don't know... It's all speculation. I always thought he was fragile: look at the Degale fight. Degale hurt George and George never bothered Degale. Smith hurt him. Kenny Anderson hurt him. George has never been iron chinned or invincible. Probably even the second Froch fight flattered him because Froch treated him with maximum caution in the early running and was taking him into deep water going to the body. It was close, I had Froch up. But a stoppage was in the post. Froch just had the better game plan.

I also think Jack was probably juicing. He has his first round KO loss, sees his future disappear, and gets on the gear. Honestly, don't any of you think that too? His reversal of fortune had been remarkable. He's fought two world class guys back to back that have fought like dogshit, but I just can't help thinking. You know how fighters who are juicing seem to develop better chins? Groves and Dirrell can both hit and were both supposed to KO him. I say this not as a big Groves fan because I dislike him now which is a shame. I'd like to have seen him rematch Degale (who I do like) because I want Degale to get his recognition. I guess he'll have to do it the tough way, like Froch did. But yeah, combination of Groves being on the slide and Jack having the special shakes I think.

Good post,

I have long harboured a big suspicion over all of Mayweather's fighters - a bunch of them from Mickey Bey, J'Leon Love have all been busted already for masking agents and all sorts.

These are constantly around Floyd, in his posse and gym - you telling me they are doing it under Floyd's nose ?

Luis Luis Arias and Chris Pearson also got busted for weed and stuff. And guess what? they are all still there with Floyd on his shows even now.

I wouldn't be surprised if he were juicing, but I also think people read too much into the loss to Edwards. Fighters with fine durability can get caught cold early and be stopped in a manner that doesn't reflect how well they take a shot (see Abner Mares), and I don't believe that Jack has shown a poor chin on other occasions. Moreover, while he did draw with Periban that was about as generous you could be to the Mexican and I thought that Jack showed good skills which suggested that he had the potential to perform at a higher level despite the underwhelming result.

To me it was strange how so many saw it as a cakewalk stoppage win for Groves. It's as if people gave Jack no credit for beating Dirrell, a better win than anything on Groves' record in my opinion, because of the loss to Edwards. Maybe if he had beaten the great Rebrasse instead it would've been enough to get some recognition.

crusader wrote:

danamba7 wrote:

samwbr wrote:Groves was not winning the second Froch fight, either convincingly or closely.

Yeah I've heard a few people say that before but I just dont see it. Fairy close tentative fight, Groves caught Froch a couple of times, Froch had some decent attacks to the body. Groves wasn't winning IMO.

I had Groves up 5-2 and thought he was outboxing Froch for the most part. In my opinion GG was consistently landing more and I believe that some people gave Froch far too much credit for occasional charges (the Froch warrior charges that is) that forced GG back but were typically quite inaccurate. I also think the markedly pro-Froch commentary helped swing opinion in his favor a bit.

I even saw quite a few people suggest, unsurprisingly like Jim Watt, that Froch controlled things with his jab, which is a laughable suggestion based on what actually happened.

I don't agree with that at all. It was rendered irrelevant anyway.

pyenest77 wrote:The Groves that fought Froch in the first fight would have toyed with Jack for me.

I don't agree, I imagine that Booth and Groves spent years discussing how to beat Froch after their spar and had a good plan which Groves executed. Froch came in knowing he had the power to drop Groves and high on the Bute win, tried to steamroll him and walked onto one. From then on he was playing catch up. In the rematch, Froch boxed, it was fairly even throughout, Groves weakened late in the fight and Froch got him.
Jack beat Groves with footwork. Jack's better than credited and Groves isn't quite as good as everybody thought after the first Froch fight is how I see it.

mrbassie wrote:

pyenest77 wrote:The Groves that fought Froch in the first fight would have toyed with Jack for me.

I don't agree, I imagine that Booth and Groves spent years discussing how to beat Froch after their spar and had a good plan which Groves executed. Froch came in knowing he had the power to drop Groves and high on the Bute win, tried to steamroll him and walked onto one. From then on he was playing catch up. In the rematch, Froch boxed, it was fairly even throughout, Groves weakened late in the fight and Froch got him.
Jack beat Groves with footwork. Jack's better than credited and Groves isn't quite as good as everybody thought after the first Froch fight is how I see it.

Yep, that's about how I see it.

Froch got careless, got caught cold - got the worst possible start.

He knew in the rematch that despite Groves hitting him with everything he had, he couldn't keep him down - it was game over from there.

samwbr wrote:I don't agree with that at all. It was rendered irrelevant anyway.

Don't agree at all with you either

And obviously it was rendered irrelevant, but it shouldn't be hard for you to see that's not the issue when the appropriate scoring prior to that point is the topic.

crusader wrote:

samwbr wrote:I don't agree with that at all. It was rendered irrelevant anyway.

Don't agree at all with you either

And obviously it was rendered irrelevant, but it shouldn't be hard for you to see that's not the issue when the appropriate scoring prior to that point is the topic.

Froch was ahead when he knocked him out. Rightly so, it was close but he was.

I know....I've looked at the scores and can see that Froch was up by one on a pair of cards and down by three on the other, but I think that Groves deserved to be ahead as I've already indicated.

Meh, i don't recall those several fairly innocuous rounds being decisive enough to be definitive either way.

To me they were generally rounds in which not much was happening but Groves was clearly doing a bit more, having an edge in connects with Froch not landing notable shots during that period. Froch picked it up as the fight progressed but even then I felt he was getting too much credit for his occasional bursts which pushed Groves back but were largely inaccurate in my view, and I challenge someone who believes that Froch controlled the bout with his jab to turn the sound off and direct me to footage of him doing this for prolonged periods.

I can understand a score of 4-3 Froch, but I strongly disagree with the position that Groves shouldn't have been ahead.