BoxRec

Two common misconceptions here.

PredatorHayds wrote:Moore was wag over the hill when he fought Rocky.

Moore fought Marciano in September 1955... Moore actually fought Muhammad Ali in November 1962 - seven years later and Moore was still near the top of the tree. Moore was hardly that "over the hill" when he fought The Rock...
And incidentally in all of that time between those years Moore had 40 fights - and he only lost 2 of them.

Care to think again?

PredatorHayds wrote:He had him in down and gave him hell.

It was a flash knockdown, Moore caught him off-balance and Marciano was only down for 3 seconds... If you want to watch it, you can do so here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pPfPUQopfg
(fast forward to 7:35, and the knockdown comes)

Marciano wasn't hurt by it.

No I still reckon Moore was over the hill. Especially at heavyweight.

The opinion I take into consideration most was Lieblings take on it.

Moore and Floyd should 100% both be above Rocky on any P4P List.

Moore perfected his style of Boxing over a 27 year career, 219 bouts at middleweight, light heavyweight and heavy - he has to be considered a more masterful boxer than Rocky M who had far fewer bouts in the single weight division.

PredatorHayds wrote:Floyd has a lot of haters at the minute. His legacy will improve as time goes on as people will forget about the negativities, a bit like Lennox.

Personally I have him in my top 10 of all time. Maybe even around the 5 mark.

I don't think he's number 1 but I'm happy to concede that people have a argument that he could be.

I think that's a step too far. I think having Floyd in your top 10 is very generous, based on his resume, but not out of the question. Top 5 is unwarranted. TBE is a joke, yes there's a small number of people claiming it, but they either have poor knowledge of boxers of the past, are in love with Floyd or are in fact, Floyd Mayweather - I can't blame him too much for thinking he is the greatest, he's certainly not the only boxer who thinks so highly of himself.

Depending how you want to judge it the greatest ever is between

Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Sam Langford
Ezzard Charles

There are others but these guys generally take up the top spots.

Ezzard wrote:Depending how you want to judge it the greatest ever is between

Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Sam Langford
Ezzard Charles

There are others but these guys generally take up the top spots.

I'd probably throw in Roberto Duran & Willie Pep in to that discussion as well...

PredatorHayds wrote:No I still reckon Moore was over the hill. Especially at heavyweight.

And you choose to ignore the fact that Moore had over a 90% win ratio between his loss to Marciano and his fight with Muhammad Ali seven years later? He was hardly "over the hill"... As a matter of fact, with that sort of form - I wish as I was as "over the hill" as him.


Do you normally dismiss the facts when they contradict your flawed viewpoints? Surely any self-assured boxing fan should have the conviction to admit that he was wrong?

PredatorHayds wrote:Moore and Floyd should 100% both be above Rocky on any P4P List.

But that's a different argument entirely isn't it? - we were discussing that particular fight, not drawing up P4P top hundreds.

Crease wrote:

PredatorHayds wrote:No I still reckon Moore was over the hill. Especially at heavyweight.

And you choose to ignore the fact that Moore had over a 90% win ratio between his loss to Marciano and his fight with Muhammad Ali seven years later? He was hardly "over the hill"... As a matter of fact, with that sort of form - I wish as I was as "over the hill" as him.


Do you normally dismiss the facts when they contradict your flawed viewpoints? Surely any self-assured boxing fan should have the conviction to admit that he was wrong?

PredatorHayds wrote:Moore and Floyd should 100% both be above Rocky on any P4P List.

But that's a different argument entirely isn't it? - we were discussing that particular fight, not drawing up P4P top hundreds.

The threads about TBE discussion. Hence the reason I said floyd and Moore are above Rocky.

Maybe you should start reading what the threads are about

And during that spell Moore was good at light- heavy but had no wins at heavy against decent opposition.

PredatorHayds wrote:

Crease wrote:

PredatorHayds wrote:No I still reckon Moore was over the hill. Especially at heavyweight.

And you choose to ignore the fact that Moore had over a 90% win ratio between his loss to Marciano and his fight with Muhammad Ali seven years later? He was hardly "over the hill"... As a matter of fact, with that sort of form - I wish as I was as "over the hill" as him.


Do you normally dismiss the facts when they contradict your flawed viewpoints? Surely any self-assured boxing fan should have the conviction to admit that he was wrong?

PredatorHayds wrote:Moore and Floyd should 100% both be above Rocky on any P4P List.

But that's a different argument entirely isn't it? - we were discussing that particular fight, not drawing up P4P top hundreds.

The threads about TBE discussion. Hence the reason I said floyd and Moore are above Rocky.

Maybe you should start reading what the threads are about

Where's the fun in that?

Did you see that idiot Tyson Fury dressed up as Batman? What an idiot.

PredatorHayds wrote:I'd say Floyd clearly has a better resume than Marciano.

There is no way Marciano is above Floyd in a all time list.

Moore was wag over the hill when he fought Rocky. He had him in down and gave him hell.

Floyd has beat Cotto, DLH, Pacman, Mosley and Hatton. All guaranteed to be hall of famers.

All of those guys FMJ beat were either passed there best or fighting out of there best weight class. You cant accuse Marciano of doing it and hide the fact Floyd did the same too by saying "All guaranteed to be hall of famers".

digzee wrote:

PredatorHayds wrote:I'd say Floyd clearly has a better resume than Marciano.

There is no way Marciano is above Floyd in a all time list.

Moore was wag over the hill when he fought Rocky. He had him in down and gave him hell.

Floyd has beat Cotto, DLH, Pacman, Mosley and Hatton. All guaranteed to be hall of famers.

All of those guys FMJ beat were either passed there best or fighting out of there best weight class. You cant accuse Marciano of doing it and hide the fact Floyd did the same too by saying "All guaranteed to be hall of famers".

What are you on about? Floyd fought several top fighters in their best weight class in their primes.

I mean, I realize it's fun to be revisionist and pretend Floyd fought a bunch of guys in wheelchairs, but go look at his record, and go rewatch those fights. It's absurd to make it sound like Floyd didn't fight top fighters at good weights and ages. Even the fighters who weren't at their absolute best, weren't done by any stretch.

His record is better than Marciano's, and I don't believe it's even close, really. I don't even like the guy, and I'm kind of glad he's gone, but come on.

Bobbyptsd wrote:

digzee wrote:

PredatorHayds wrote:I'd say Floyd clearly has a better resume than Marciano.

There is no way Marciano is above Floyd in a all time list.

Moore was wag over the hill when he fought Rocky. He had him in down and gave him hell.

Floyd has beat Cotto, DLH, Pacman, Mosley and Hatton. All guaranteed to be hall of famers.

All of those guys FMJ beat were either passed there best or fighting out of there best weight class. You cant accuse Marciano of doing it and hide the fact Floyd did the same too by saying "All guaranteed to be hall of famers".

What are you on about? Floyd fought several top fighters in their best weight class in their primes.

I mean, I realize it's fun to be revisionist and pretend Floyd fought a bunch of guys in wheelchairs, but go look at his record, and go rewatch those fights. It's absurd to make it sound like Floyd didn't fight top fighters at good weights and ages. Even the fighters who weren't at their absolute best, weren't done by any stretch.

His record is better than Marciano's, and I don't believe it's even close, really. I don't even like the guy, and I'm kind of glad he's gone, but come on.

I'm quoting the fvcking guys he wrote, Hatton was never good at WW he had 1 fight there before Floyd, and I had him losing that, then he went back down to LWW for 2 fights before he fought Floyd and after he went back to 140 for the rest of his career.
Cotto would have been a great win in 2008 at WW but he waited 4 years and made him fight at a catch weight.
Mosley- he fought a 39 year old Mosely coming off a 14 month lay off!!!
ODLH and Pac were just as past there best as Moore was to Marciano...


Yes Floyd is a great but don't quote guys like Mosely as a great win then say Marciano's win over Moore was sh1t because that's just plan stupid.

DLH was still a damn good fighter and at his best at 154. Mosley was welterweight champion of the world. Cotto was quite clearly the top 154 pound fighter in the world at the time. Hatton benefited more from the extra 7 pounds than Floyd did. Pac was two years younger than Floyd and still a top fighter.

That is all.

Bobbyptsd wrote:DLH was still a damn good fighter and at his best at 154. Mosley was welterweight champion of the world. Cotto was quite clearly the top 154 pound fighter in the world at the time. Hatton benefited more from the extra 7 pounds than Floyd did. Pac was two years younger than Floyd and still a top fighter.

That is all.

DLH was finished.
Mosley was finished.
Cotto had beat nobody at 154 so that's wild.
Hatton never benefitted from fighting at a higher weight.
Pac's at least 5 years out of his prime.


Ridiculous post.

Ricky_ wrote:

Bobbyptsd wrote:DLH was still a damn good fighter and at his best at 154. Mosley was welterweight champion of the world. Cotto was quite clearly the top 154 pound fighter in the world at the time. Hatton benefited more from the extra 7 pounds than Floyd did. Pac was two years younger than Floyd and still a top fighter.

That is all.

DLH was finished.
Mosley was finished.
Cotto had beat nobody at 154 so that's wild.
Hatton never benefitted from fighting at a higher weight.
Pac's at least 5 years out of his prime.


Ridiculous post.

Also Trout beat Cotto in better fashion then Floyd did straight after.

PredatorHayds wrote:And during that spell Moore was good at light- heavy but had no wins at heavy against decent opposition.

- Now, grab your crotch, I don’t want the family jewels busting open on the concrete when I give you Archie’s numbers after he turned 40.

How’s about 43-4-2 and 10-2 in full unified title bouts, the 10 wins being his undefeated lightheavy title reign and his 2 heavy title losses to HOF heavies, Rocky Marciano and Floyd Patterson. Most of his fights and knockouts were against heavies, too many to be bothered to count. Generally he’d only fight one or two lightheavy bouts in a year, mainly title defenses, and then cash in for the remainder of the year, most against ranked heavy contenders, fringe contenders and former contenders which was where the money was. If we consider that he was probably a couple years older than he let on as he was suspected, those numbers would only increase. He was near 50 when losing to a young Cassius Clay fast rising in the ranks

I suggest going to the big red boxrec link in the upper left corner and doing a search lest you betray yourself further. He's only the all time record holder in knockouts and the most intelligent ring general in boxing history. Precious few of the greats can even approach his career.

Always nice to read your posts Broughton.

I always thought Moore was a past it easy-touch light-heavy. Then I read old copies of The Ring at my uncle's house many years ago and the journalists were calling for the fight. They saw Archie as the best contender out there and it was a major championship foght with many picking Archie to win.

Archie had already beaten Nino Valdes who had been considered the top contender for the title.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

PredatorHayds wrote:And during that spell Moore was good at light- heavy but had no wins at heavy against decent opposition.

- Now, grab your crotch, I don’t want the family jewels busting open on the concrete when I give you Archie’s numbers after he turned 40.

How’s about 43-4-2 and 10-2 in full unified title bouts, the 10 wins being his undefeated lightheavy title reign and his 2 heavy title losses to HOF heavies, Rocky Marciano and Floyd Patterson. Most of his fights and knockouts were against heavies, too many to be bothered to count. Generally he’d only fight one or two lightheavy bouts in a year, mainly title defenses, and then cash in for the remainder of the year, most against ranked heavy contenders, fringe contenders and former contenders which was where the money was. If we consider that he was probably a couple years older than he let on as he was suspected, those numbers would only increase. He was near 50 when losing to a young Cassius Clay fast rising in the ranks

I suggest going to the big red boxrec link in the upper left corner and doing a search lest you betray yourself further. He's only the all time record holder in knockouts and the most intelligent ring general in boxing history. Precious few of the greats can even approach his career.

His best win at heavyweight during the Marciano and Ali fight was Rademacher who wasn't exactly world class.

I personally have Moore as the second best fighter of all time. My point is that I don't particularly value marcianos win over him due to the fact I didn't rate him highly as a heavyweight at the time.

Mayweather went from Super Feather to Light Middle. 130 pounds to 154 pounds. People argue that Floyd fought fighters out of their ideal weight, but this guy had to jump 24 pounds in his career. He jumped up a weight to fight Oscar, jumped again to fight Cotto, jumped again to fight Alvarez. This guy ins't a natural LMW, but did it anyway.

Batley18 wrote:Mayweather went from Super Feather to Light Middle. 130 pounds to 154 pounds. People argue that Floyd fought fighters out of their ideal weight, but this guy had to jump 24 pounds in his career. He jumped up a weight to fight Oscar, jumped again to fight Cotto, jumped again to fight Alvarez. This guy ins't a natural LMW, but did it anyway.

It's the nature of boxing now with draining, rehydrating, and IV drips. Being a multi-weight champion is commendable but it does substitute for the lack of quality wins over prime fighters.

Ricky_ wrote:

Batley18 wrote:Mayweather went from Super Feather to Light Middle. 130 pounds to 154 pounds. People argue that Floyd fought fighters out of their ideal weight, but this guy had to jump 24 pounds in his career. He jumped up a weight to fight Oscar, jumped again to fight Cotto, jumped again to fight Alvarez. This guy ins't a natural LMW, but did it anyway.

It's the nature of boxing now with draining, rehydrating, and IV drips. Being a multi-weight champion is commendable but it does substitute for the lack of quality wins over prime fighters.

You also need to consider the nature of these victories as well though. Mayweather was 36 when he fought Alvarez, who was 23. It was one sided, unless you were C.J. Ross. Great fighters who are now not in their prime are still very good fighters, but FMJ has made them look ordinary.

I agree ^: Floyd has some "very good" wins.

Floyd does have a better record than Marciano, yes but when you compare him to guys like Ali and Leonard, Floyd doesn't have one prime "legend" oh his record while those guys have at least 3.