BoxRec

bogan whisperer wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Mate i'v already mention 7 of them does this have to go down to the wire i'v answered some of your question's put to me can you return the favour just this time and give me your top 20 if that's too much then please give me your top 10 atleast but top 20 would be better that'll really give me an idea what you think close to 10 is does top 25 count :?? tell the truth now

I've already given you 35 names which are close to my top 35, give or take a few, but not in order of course.

If you are that keen, I'll put mine up in order straight after you post yours [/quote



Malcolm was a better fighter then at atleast 10 on your list and for you to put some-one with a 16 win 2 loss record and to even insinuate that he is on par with some-one that won a 100 fight's is a joke he was in the world top 10 rating's for the first time in 1978 the last time he was world rated in the top 10 was in 2002 do some googling and try find some-one who had a top 10 world ranking in 4 different decade's 70's/80's/90's/2000.
So quickly now.....................I shouldn't hear from you for a while because what your looking for is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack
I'm still waiting for your list that were better than Malcolm on your list of 35 what are you worried about your under a alias

Grant wrote:Hard to argue about any on that list.
Agree Curruthers deserves a spot and could make a case that he fought better opposition than Lester.
Also Ron Richards? We gloss over some of those guys from that era. They were fighting and beating future and former World Champs on a regular basis.

Extra kudos to Jimmy Carruthers for retiring an undefeated world champion. That puts him in a pretty exclusive category.

Yes he did come back over 7 years later and proved he was human after all by losing a few. But I don't devalue his earlier achievements for making a comeback he shouldn't have because he needed the money to buy a pub.

bogan whisperer wrote:

Grant wrote:Hard to argue about any on that list.
Agree Curruthers deserves a spot and could make a case that he fought better opposition than Lester.
Also Ron Richards? We gloss over some of those guys from that era. They were fighting and beating future and former World Champs on a regular basis.

Extra kudos to Jimmy Carruthers for retiring an undefeated world champion. That puts him in a pretty exclusive category.

Yes he did come back over 7 years later and proved he was human after all by losing a few. But I don't devalue his earlier achievements for making a comeback he shouldn't have because he needed the money to buy a pub.

Keep searching

As well as having continued problems with cuts, Jimmy retired with his health and bank balance in tact for a fresh start with his young wife Myra. Says alot about the man.

Happy to see Rocky Mattioli on the list top fighter in a pretty elite division.

Grant wrote:Happy to see Rocky Mattioli on the list top fighter in a pretty elite division.

Grant wrote:Hard to argue about any on that list.
Agree Curruthers deserves a spot and could make a case that he fought better opposition than Lester.
Also Ron Richards? We gloss over some of those guys from that era. They were fighting and beating future and former World Champs on a regular basis.

Being a world champion, or fighting one, was usually a much greater achievement in the 1960s and 70s than it is now, because there were far less title belts back then.

Tony Mundine is undeniably one of our greatest of all time. But he didn't win a world title, and to do so he would have had to beat Carlos Monzon.

Likewise Hector Thompson. The man standing between Hec and being a world champion was Roberto Duran.

Compare those two names to some of the "champions" our later day fighters have fought.

Like a Boss wrote:

Grant wrote:Hard to argue about any on that list.
Agree Curruthers deserves a spot and could make a case that he fought better opposition than Lester.
Also Ron Richards? We gloss over some of those guys from that era. They were fighting and beating future and former World Champs on a regular basis.

Being a world champion, or fighting one, was usually a much greater achievement in the 1960s and 70s than it is now, because there were far less title belts back then.

Tony Mundine is undeniably one of our greatest of all time. But he didn't win a world title, and to do so he would have had to beat Carlos Monzon.

Likewise Hector Thompson. The man standing between Hec and being a world champion was Roberto Duran.

Compare those two names to some of the "champions" our later day fighters have fought.

Totally agree and its become a domino affect down the line with aussie/commonwealth title's etc etc etc

It has been proven time and again how impossible it is to submit a top 10 of anything without some self proclaimed "expert" coming along and telling you how wrong you are.

So, fully anticipating ridicule, here is my top 10:

1. Jeff Fenech

2. Kostya Tszyu

3. Lionel Rose

4. Johnny Famechon

5. Jimmy Carruthers

6. Les Darcy

7. Vic Darchinyan

8. Dave Sands

9. Jeff Harding

10. Daniel Geale

With apologies to many. Including Lester Ellis who was probably my next choice.

Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Arguments can be raised for one fighter over another on so many grounds. But don't start with the "he's not an Australian" bullshit. The list the thread is based on includes the likes of Kostya and Vic and so am I.

Thats not a bad list at all and cudos to you for having a crack. Personally, as much as i enjoy watching him fight, i wouldnt have Geale breaking the top 10, just looking at MWs id have Richards, Henneberry, Palmer and Mundine Snr ahead of him off the top of my head.

Like a Boss wrote:It has been proven time and again how impossible it is to submit a top 10 of anything without some self proclaimed "expert" coming along and telling you how wrong you are.

So, fully anticipating ridicule, here is my top 10:

1. Jeff Fenech

2. Kostya Tszyu

3. Lionel Rose

4. Johnny Famechon

5. Jimmy Carruthers

6. Les Darcy

7. Vic Darchinyan

8. Dave Sands

9. Jeff Harding

10. Daniel Geale

With apologies to many. Including Lester Ellis who was probably my next choice.

Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Arguments can be raised for one fighter over another on so many grounds. But don't start with the "he's not an Australian" bullshit. The list the thread is based on includes the likes of Kostya and Vic and so am I.

Good list I would agree with 7 of your top 10 the other 3 and its just my opinion would be further down the list Geale/Harding/Darchiyan

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Like a Boss wrote:It has been proven time and again how impossible it is to submit a top 10 of anything without some self proclaimed "expert" coming along and telling you how wrong you are.

So, fully anticipating ridicule, here is my top 10:

1. Jeff Fenech

2. Kostya Tszyu

3. Lionel Rose

4. Johnny Famechon

5. Jimmy Carruthers

6. Les Darcy

7. Vic Darchinyan

8. Dave Sands

9. Jeff Harding

10. Daniel Geale

With apologies to many. Including Lester Ellis who was probably my next choice.

Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Arguments can be raised for one fighter over another on so many grounds. But don't start with the "he's not an Australian" bullshit. The list the thread is based on includes the likes of Kostya and Vic and so am I.

Good list I would agree with 7 of your top 10 the other 3 and its just my opinion would be further down the list Geale/Harding/Darchiyan

Who would you have above Geale/Harding/Darchiyan??

Like a Boss wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Like a Boss wrote:It has been proven time and again how impossible it is to submit a top 10 of anything without some self proclaimed "expert" coming along and telling you how wrong you are.

So, fully anticipating ridicule, here is my top 10:

1. Jeff Fenech

2. Kostya Tszyu

3. Lionel Rose

4. Johnny Famechon

5. Jimmy Carruthers

6. Les Darcy

7. Vic Darchinyan

8. Dave Sands

9. Jeff Harding

10. Daniel Geale

With apologies to many. Including Lester Ellis who was probably my next choice.

Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Arguments can be raised for one fighter over another on so many grounds. But don't start with the "he's not an Australian" bullshit. The list the thread is based on includes the likes of Kostya and Vic and so am I.

Good list I would agree with 7 of your top 10 the other 3 and its just my opinion would be further down the list Geale/Harding/Darchiyan

Who would you have above Geale/Harding/Darchiyan??

Also like the list. Geale probably a bit lucky to be there. But who am i to say...

Grant wrote:

Like a Boss wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Good list I would agree with 7 of your top 10 the other 3 and its just my opinion would be further down the list Geale/Harding/Darchiyan

Who would you have above Geale/Harding/Darchiyan??

Also like the list. Geale probably a bit lucky to be there. But who am i to say...

I have Geale at #10 largely on the strength of him twice going over to Germany and winning titles off reigning champions, Sebastian Sylvester (IBF) and Felix Sturm (WBA). Those two feats by the same fighter makes Geale quite unique in Australian boxing history.

I appreciate there are many with claims for the position I have placed Geale in. Who would you have there instead?

Like a Boss I agree that Geale did some great thing's like winning twice in Germany against their best something unheard of but When I look at naming our best I never rate another fighter over some-one else because he was a World Champion because the simple fact is that during different era's some fighter's never got the opportunity's that other's got fighter's like pound for pound one of the hardest puncher's to lace a glove on in this country Elley Bennett he was World rated in the 50's no one ever gives him a mention in these sort of thing's he who would have only got a shot at the white South African Champion Vic Toweel when Hell Froze over because Elley was Aboriginal then we have guy's like Ron Richards all I need to say is he died a pauper it was a sign of the time's and I could point out our Elleys money was robbed of most of his earning's by the Queensland government of the day I know that's got nothing to do with our best ever list but again its the just an example of the opportunity thing and then you look at a guy's before Bill Mordey came along in the 70's and 80's Tony Mundine/Hector Thompson/Malcolm/Ferrari that never won a world title
Barry Michael would never got a shot if Lester Ellis was'nt World Champ and he had to go down a weight then we have Champ's like Jack Carroll/Vic Patrick that never got a shot I was asked who I would have in front of Geale/Darchinyan/Harding I haven't got the 3 yet but one thing I do know style's make fight's so in my view I'm not saying either way wether he's in our top 10 but Tony Mundine would have Ko'd Geale and his son Anthony

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Like a Boss I agree that Geale did some great thing's like winning twice in Germany against their best something unheard of but When I look at naming our best I never rate another fighter over some-one else because he was a World Champion because the simple fact is that during different era's some fighter's never got the opportunity's that other's got fighter's like pound for pound one of the hardest puncher's to lace a glove on in this country Elley Bennett he was World rated in the 50's no one ever gives him a mention in these sort of thing's he who would have only got a shot at the white South African Champion Vic Toweel when Hell Froze over because Elley was Aboriginal then we have guy's like Ron Richards all I need to say is he died a pauper it was a sign of the time's and I could point out our Elleys money was robbed of most of his earning's by the Queensland government of the day I know that's got nothing to do with our best ever list but again its the just an example of the opportunity thing and then you look at a guy's before Bill Mordey came along in the 70's and 80's Tony Mundine/Hector Thompson/Malcolm/Ferrari that never won a world title
Barry Michael would never got a shot if Lester Ellis was'nt World Champ and he had to go down a weight then we have Champ's like Jack Carroll/Vic Patrick that never got a shot I was asked who I would have in front of Geale/Darchinyan/Harding I haven't got the 3 yet but one thing I do know style's make fight's so in my view I'm not saying either way wether he's in our top 10 but Tony Mundine would have Ko'd Geale and his son Anthony

I rate finding Tony Mundine's true place among our elite as perhaps the hardest assignment of all. He was truly dominant here, winning whatever title he chose and I don't think he ever lost to a fellow Aussie and that included heavyweights. He also won Commonwealth titles at different weights. Something few other Aussies would have done.

Only Carlos Monzon stood between Tony and a world title and those of us who follow the great sport all know how good and how dominant Monzon was.

Though it is very hard to compare fighters from different eras, I agree with you that head-to-head Tony would beat his son Anthony, and probably Daniel Geale as well. But head-to-head isn't, in my opinion at least, the be all and end all of rating fighters. For me it is just as much about what they achieved in comparison to each other.

Like a Boss wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Like a Boss I agree that Geale did some great thing's like winning twice in Germany against their best something unheard of but When I look at naming our best I never rate another fighter over some-one else because he was a World Champion because the simple fact is that during different era's some fighter's never got the opportunity's that other's got fighter's like pound for pound one of the hardest puncher's to lace a glove on in this country Elley Bennett he was World rated in the 50's no one ever gives him a mention in these sort of thing's he who would have only got a shot at the white South African Champion Vic Toweel when Hell Froze over because Elley was Aboriginal then we have guy's like Ron Richards all I need to say is he died a pauper it was a sign of the time's and I could point out our Elleys money was robbed of most of his earning's by the Queensland government of the day I know that's got nothing to do with our best ever list but again its the just an example of the opportunity thing and then you look at a guy's before Bill Mordey came along in the 70's and 80's Tony Mundine/Hector Thompson/Malcolm/Ferrari that never won a world title
Barry Michael would never got a shot if Lester Ellis was'nt World Champ and he had to go down a weight then we have Champ's like Jack Carroll/Vic Patrick that never got a shot I was asked who I would have in front of Geale/Darchinyan/Harding I haven't got the 3 yet but one thing I do know style's make fight's so in my view I'm not saying either way wether he's in our top 10 but Tony Mundine would have Ko'd Geale and his son Anthony

I rate finding Tony Mundine's true place among our elite as perhaps the hardest assignment of all. He was truly dominant here, winning whatever title he chose and I don't think he ever lost to a fellow Aussie and that included heavyweights. He also won Commonwealth titles at different weights. Something few other Aussies would have done.

Only Carlos Monzon stood between Tony and a world title and those of us who follow the great sport all know how good and how dominant Monzon was.

Though it is very hard to compare fighters from different eras, I agree with you that head-to-head Tony would beat his son Anthony, and probably Daniel Geale as well. But head-to-head isn't, in my opinion at least, the be all and end all of rating fighters. For me it is just as much about what they achieved in comparison to each other.

When it comes to these sort of list in boxing in my view it is important to look closely at head-to-head I know in some case's its not the be all and end all of rating fighter's especially when fighter's give away too much weight and things like their past their best etc etc etc example's like Ezzard Charles for instance when i was younger i always thought Archie Moore to be the best light heavyweight to ever live but when i took a closer look i realised that he cannot be rated rated above Charles when he was beaten by him on the 3 occasion's they met and i see the best ever featherweight's of all time list's and half the time people will rate Pep above Sattler how :?? When Sattler stopped him 3 time's and lost only 1 to him[Pep] and that was on point's we need to look at the big picture and what about longevity that needs to be carefully considered also like one guy has 95/96 fight's the other guy has 24/25 who's better is the one that won a World title when the opportunity's were far greater or is the one that had to fight a absolute Legend to become world Champ so in the end we will have to in our own mind's start having dream matche's when possible of cause not Jr Middleweght's v Cruiserweight's I know we will be opening a can of worm's but that's the way it should be done
and if the weight's difference is to much we can keep looking at the big picture we'll still debate till the cow's come home though I suspect my friend

Head-to-head results sometime create more conundrums than they solve. Here is just one example:

As you said earlier, Jeff Malcolm beat Barry Michael.

Hec Thompson beat Jeff Malcolm in what I think was their only meeting.

Baby Cassius took the honours 2-1 against Hec Thompson and even managed to stop Hec in their first meeting.

Jeff Malcolm beat Baby Cassius in both their two meetings.

Can any specific conclusions be drawn from those head-to-head results in terms of who should rate higher in the overall ratings? I don't think so. You may differ to that view?

For the record, overall I would rate Thompson and Michael above Malcolm & Cassius. But you may differ to that view too?

Like a Boss wrote:Head-to-head results sometime create more conundrums than they solve. Here is just one example:

As you said earlier, Jeff Malcolm beat Barry Michael.

Hec Thompson beat Jeff Malcolm in what I think was their only meeting.

Baby Cassius took the honours 2-1 against Hec Thompson and even managed to stop Hec in their first meeting.

Jeff Malcolm beat Baby Cassius in both their two meetings.

Can any specific conclusions be drawn from those head-to-head results in terms of who should rate higher in the overall ratings? I don't think so. You may differ to that view?

For the record, overall I would rate Thompson and Michael above Malcolm & Cassius. But you may differ to that view too?

Mate I agree about Hector but I could never rate some-one over another fighter especially when he would never beat that fighter if he fought him 10 time's that being that Michael could never beat Malcolm and Baby Cassius well he was a world class fighter in his own right and he is another that never gets mentioned on any all time great list and that's a god dam shame

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Like a Boss wrote:Head-to-head results sometime create more conundrums than they solve. Here is just one example:

As you said earlier, Jeff Malcolm beat Barry Michael.

Hec Thompson beat Jeff Malcolm in what I think was their only meeting.

Baby Cassius took the honours 2-1 against Hec Thompson and even managed to stop Hec in their first meeting.

Jeff Malcolm beat Baby Cassius in both their two meetings.

Can any specific conclusions be drawn from those head-to-head results in terms of who should rate higher in the overall ratings? I don't think so. You may differ to that view?

For the record, overall I would rate Thompson and Michael above Malcolm & Cassius. But you may differ to that view too?

Mate I agree about Hector but I could never rate some-one over another fighter especially when he would never beat that fighter if he fought him 10 time's that being that Michael could never beat Malcolm and Baby Cassius well he was a world class fighter in his own right and he is another that never gets mentioned on any all time great list and that's a god dam shame

I think you said earlier, styles make fights, and that is certainly true.

Some fighters just didn't match up well on others. An example that comes to mind is Ali against Kenny Norton. Norton won their first fight, breaking Ali's jaw in the process. Ali got the nod in their 2nd and 3rd meetings in close fights. Many thought Norton was hard done by, and should have won at least one perhaps both.

The point I'm making here is, Norton appeared to have Ali's measure and probably should have won their battles 2-1 or even 3-0.

But nobody would even rank Norton above Ali in their top 10 heavyweights. Ali would be close enough to number 1 and Norton well down the list.

Like a Boss wrote:

Grant wrote:Hard to argue about any on that list.
Agree Curruthers deserves a spot and could make a case that he fought better opposition than Lester.
Also Ron Richards? We gloss over some of those guys from that era. They were fighting and beating future and former World Champs on a regular basis.

Being a world champion, or fighting one, was usually a much greater achievement in the 1960s and 70s than it is now, because there were far less title belts back then.

Tony Mundine is undeniably one of our greatest of all time. But he didn't win a world title, and to do so he would have had to beat Carlos Monzon.

Likewise Hector Thompson. The man standing between Hec and being a world champion was Roberto Duran.

Compare those two names to some of the "champions" our later day fighters have fought.

Mate i agree. Just dor the sake of an arguement id throw in Paul Fererri too. I temember getting fighter magazine and deviuring the stories about hector Thomson. Fighting Duran in his home town at Duran's peak. Apart from Tony Mundine fighting Monzon in Argentina that was the hardest gig in boxing

Grant wrote:

Like a Boss wrote:

Grant wrote:Hard to argue about any on that list.
Agree Curruthers deserves a spot and could make a case that he fought better opposition than Lester.
Also Ron Richards? We gloss over some of those guys from that era. They were fighting and beating future and former World Champs on a regular basis.

Being a world champion, or fighting one, was usually a much greater achievement in the 1960s and 70s than it is now, because there were far less title belts back then.

Tony Mundine is undeniably one of our greatest of all time. But he didn't win a world title, and to do so he would have had to beat Carlos Monzon.

Likewise Hector Thompson. The man standing between Hec and being a world champion was Roberto Duran.

Compare those two names to some of the "champions" our later day fighters have fought.

Mate i agree. Just dor the sake of an arguement id throw in Paul Fererri too. I temember getting fighter magazine and deviuring the stories about hector Thomson. Fighting Duran in his home town at Duran's peak. Apart from Tony Mundine fighting Monzon in Argentina that was the hardest gig in boxing

Paul Ferreri held Commonwealth titles for the best part of 15 years. Probably longer than any Australian, before or since.

Like Tony Mundine & Hec Thompson, in his quest for a world title Ferreri ran into a great champion. In his case Carlos Zarate.

To put that Zarate loss in context, Ferreri was the first person to take Zarate past 10 rounds, the fight was stopped due to a cut and at the time he was well behind on points but still competitive and i thought very gradually clawing his way back into the fight. Only cut in a hundred odd bouts, the man was a very good boxer.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Like a Boss wrote:It has been proven time and again how impossible it is to submit a top 10 of anything without some self proclaimed "expert" coming along and telling you how wrong you are.

So, fully anticipating ridicule, here is my top 10:

1. Jeff Fenech

2. Kostya Tszyu

3. Lionel Rose

4. Johnny Famechon

5. Jimmy Carruthers

6. Les Darcy

7. Vic Darchinyan

8. Dave Sands

9. Jeff Harding

10. Daniel Geale

With apologies to many. Including Lester Ellis who was probably my next choice.

Constructive criticism is welcomed.

Arguments can be raised for one fighter over another on so many grounds. But don't start with the "he's not an Australian" bullshit. The list the thread is based on includes the likes of Kostya and Vic and so am I.

Good list I would agree with 7 of your top 10 the other 3 and its just my opinion would be further down the list Geale/Harding/Darchiyan

Darchynian has won 8 world titles in 3 different divisions. He actually thinks he should be higher.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/boxing/vic- ... jz2ox.html

He has a point(though I think he should retire).