BoxRec

BoxBuzz wrote:This is how it works, we come and we go, even the best of us. Marciano was a chump for not fighting until someone honorably rested the title from him.

Someone allowed him to earn it....she should have returned the favor. Keep going until you don't have it anymore....it is what it is......'till it ain't anymore.

You never cease to amaze me with your naivety.

BoxBuzz wrote:One of the hardest things to do is to convince people that we are not all children, and that we really are responsible for every moment of our lives.

I'm glad he fought Holmes, to officially end his claim to the HW crown, and allow Larry his due....His loss to Larry is no sadder than Ali beating and embarssing Liston in the first fight, and then scaring him to death in the second fight. Or torturing a Floyd Patterson who had a bad back, or giving George Foreman a lesson in character building. And it works both ways when you are the best of the best.

This is how it works, we come and we go, even the best of us. Marciano was a chump for not fighting until someone honorably rested the title from him.

Someone allowed him to earn it....she should have returned the favor. Keep going until you don't have it anymore....it is what it is......'till it ain't anymore.

..

The problem with topics such as these is Ali fans make Ali into something more than just a champion boxer, they associate him with an era in time that was turbulent and world shaking. Like the thread creator stated, "it was an end of an era", bringing up the likes of John Lennon getting killed, etc. and it goes to show where the mindset was for alot of people watching that fight with Larry. For them the 60's and 70's would never end, and very few sports writers gave Larry a chance to win. They were all wearing tinted glasses and under a delusion. The only one who wasn't under such delusions was Larry Holmes. He knew Ali had nothing left, and still to this day Larry will say as early as 1974 he knew even then he could have beaten Ali.

Ali was as much a figment of people's imaginations, as he was a remarkable athlete. The issue is, people (mainly on this forum) cannot separate the fact that he was done following 1975. The years that followed after that was a brilliant performance by an underated actor, who had the media behind him to mask his weaknesses. Sure, he survived Shavers, and sure he survived Manila and Norton a third time---- but the fact remains---- look at the other fights, and what do they tell you? The last knockout of his career was against Richard Dunne. He was given a gift over Young. He couldn't stop or convincingly beat Evangelista, a novice. Etc etc etc.

Larry handled him with kid gloves until the final two rounds. Look at that fight, and then look at Larry's other fights, and you will know it was true. At the end of the day, Ali has only himself to blame, and so does the Nation of Islam and Herbert Mohammad and his son, as well as the commission and the Mayo Clinic and their damnable diagnosis. Everyone saw dollar signs, and Ali was blinded by his own ego and delusions that he could go on forever. Still, its no sadder than Joe Louis getting knocked out by Marciano. It's no sadder than Jefferies being stopped by Jack Johnson. The only difference, here, is that it was seen in live time around the world and with a man who was elevated to mythic proportions---- when he was just a flesh and blood man and nothing more.

Call me biased, but I'm glad it happened. And I'm also glad that the Berbick fight had little to no press coverage either. I can't help but think, had Ali fought John Tate or Mike Weaver or even Gerrie Coetzee, what the hell would have happened to Ali because surely those men would have came out guns blazing, without remorse, unlike Larry who handled Ali with kid gloves because Ali was his friend. It would have been a far worse massacre.

It was so painful to watch The Greatest in that "Last Hurrah" fight. I guess it had to happened that way. The great Larry Holmes never got the credit due in his boxing career. He was an extraordinary champion.

The idea Holmes was somehow carrying Ali is as much a lie as it is nonsense

Holmes showed no mercy and tried his hardest to knock Ali out.

He couldnt and was left with a terrible quandry....he had to keep hitting Ali ,as the referee wouldnt step in and he feared Ali somehow getting back into the fight....so what u were left with was the slow barbaric torture.

The other thing that sickens me is angelo dundees claim he something did something benevolent in stopping it....about 4 or 5 rounds too late...for once ferdie pacheco is right dundee should have been arrested along with anyone else involved in the "fight"

HomicideHenry wrote:The problem with topics such as these is Ali fans make Ali into something more than just a champion boxer, they associate him with an era in time that was turbulent and world shaking. Like the thread creator stated, "it was an end of an era", bringing up the likes of John Lennon getting killed, etc. and it goes to show where the mindset was for alot of people watching that fight with Larry. For them the 60's and 70's would never end, and very few sports writers gave Larry a chance to win. They were all wearing tinted glasses and under a delusion. The only one who wasn't under such delusions was Larry Holmes. He knew Ali had nothing left, and still to this day Larry will say as early as 1974 he knew even then he could have beaten Ali.

Ali was as much a figment of people's imaginations, as he was a remarkable athlete. The issue is, people (mainly on this forum) cannot separate the fact that he was done following 1975. The years that followed after that was a brilliant performance by an underated actor, who had the media behind him to mask his weaknesses. Sure, he survived Shavers, and sure he survived Manila and Norton a third time---- but the fact remains---- look at the other fights, and what do they tell you? The last knockout of his career was against Richard Dunne. He was given a gift over Young. He couldn't stop or convincingly beat Evangelista, a novice. Etc etc etc.

Larry handled him with kid gloves until the final two rounds. Look at that fight, and then look at Larry's other fights, and you will know it was true. At the end of the day, Ali has only himself to blame, and so does the Nation of Islam and Herbert Mohammad and his son, as well as the commission and the Mayo Clinic and their damnable diagnosis. Everyone saw dollar signs, and Ali was blinded by his own ego and delusions that he could go on forever. Still, its no sadder than Joe Louis getting knocked out by Marciano. It's no sadder than Jefferies being stopped by Jack Johnson. The only difference, here, is that it was seen in live time around the world and with a man who was elevated to mythic proportions---- when he was just a flesh and blood man and nothing more.

Call me biased, but I'm glad it happened. And I'm also glad that the Berbick fight had little to no press coverage either. I can't help but think, had Ali fought John Tate or Mike Weaver or even Gerrie Coetzee, what the hell would have happened to Ali because surely those men would have came out guns blazing, without remorse, unlike Larry who handled Ali with kid gloves because Ali was his friend. It would have been a far worse massacre.

One of the best posts I've ever read on this board, no question.

mugabi wrote:The idea Holmes was somehow carrying Ali is as much a lie as it is nonsense

Holmes showed no mercy and tried his hardest to knock Ali out.

He couldnt and was left with a terrible quandry....he had to keep hitting Ali ,as the referee wouldnt step in and he feared Ali somehow getting back into the fight....so what u were left with was the slow barbaric torture.

The other thing that sickens me is angelo dundees claim he something did something benevolent in stopping it....about 4 or 5 rounds too late...for once ferdie pacheco is right dundee should have been arrested along with anyone else involved in the "fight"

I think it is apt to say Holmes was holding back. The last two rounds, Holmes put it on. The rounds before that, yeah Larry landed some damn good punches, but when you compare the fight to any other that he had---- anyone can see that there was a difference between those fights and this one. Holmes knew Ali had nothing left, and it was clear from the start. Yeah, Holmes had a deadly, laser precision jab and he threw some hard body shots. But the tempo, the rythem, the pace of the fight.... it's clear Holmes wasn't out to brutalize Ali. He hoped, I think, that Ali would quit or the referee would have stopped it. Holmes, if memory serves me right, asked the referee more than once to step in and stop it and when he didn't, Larry took matters into his own hands and started tee'ing off. Because Ali was on thyroid pills, his kidneys were shot, and in that 10th round Holmes lands a killer shot to the kidneys and Ali SCREAMS out in pain. It's a wonder, in alot of ways, that he didn't get killed in that fight, even though it's obvious to almost all observers that Holmes didn't turn up the heat until the last two rounds.

As for Dundee..... in comparison to the others in Ali's corner (the Nation of Islam), Dundee was benevolent. He screamed at them and said "I'm stopping the fight!", because it was obvious they were only in it for some sort of money or acclaim hoping Ali would somehow win. Dundee was the only man in that corner with any sense, even though (yes) it went on too long.

HomicideHenry wrote:The problem with topics such as these is Ali fans make Ali into something more than just a champion boxer, they associate him with an era in time that was turbulent and world shaking. Like the thread creator stated, "it was an end of an era", bringing up the likes of John Lennon getting killed, etc. and it goes to show where the mindset was for alot of people watching that fight with Larry. For them the 60's and 70's would never end, and very few sports writers gave Larry a chance to win. They were all wearing tinted glasses and under a delusion. The only one who wasn't under such delusions was Larry Holmes. He knew Ali had nothing left, and still to this day Larry will say as early as 1974 he knew even then he could have beaten Ali.

Ali was as much a figment of people's imaginations, as he was a remarkable athlete. The issue is, people (mainly on this forum) cannot separate the fact that he was done following 1975. The years that followed after that was a brilliant performance by an underated actor, who had the media behind him to mask his weaknesses. Sure, he survived Shavers, and sure he survived Manila and Norton a third time---- but the fact remains---- look at the other fights, and what do they tell you? The last knockout of his career was against Richard Dunne. He was given a gift over Young. He couldn't stop or convincingly beat Evangelista, a novice. Etc etc etc.

Larry handled him with kid gloves until the final two rounds. Look at that fight, and then look at Larry's other fights, and you will know it was true. At the end of the day, Ali has only himself to blame, and so does the Nation of Islam and Herbert Mohammad and his son, as well as the commission and the Mayo Clinic and their damnable diagnosis. Everyone saw dollar signs, and Ali was blinded by his own ego and delusions that he could go on forever. Still, its no sadder than Joe Louis getting knocked out by Marciano. It's no sadder than Jefferies being stopped by Jack Johnson. The only difference, here, is that it was seen in live time around the world and with a man who was elevated to mythic proportions---- when he was just a flesh and blood man and nothing more.

Call me biased, but I'm glad it happened. And I'm also glad that the Berbick fight had little to no press coverage either. I can't help but think, had Ali fought John Tate or Mike Weaver or even Gerrie Coetzee, what the hell would have happened to Ali because surely those men would have came out guns blazing, without remorse, unlike Larry who handled Ali with kid gloves because Ali was his friend. It would have been a far worse massacre.

-Few sportswriters thought Holmes would win? What in the world are you talking about? Almost everyone who knew anything about boxing thought Holmes would win.
-Gift win over Young? No. That was not a gift win, not by the judges anyway. Young didn't do much at all.
-Holmes says he could have beaten Ali in 1974? So what? A fighter thinks he can beat someone else. Ali would have slapped Holmes silly in 1974.
-The Nation of Islam? They had nothing to do with Ali fighting Holmes. Ali had left them several years before that.

Nothing but a sad and meaningless fight. Too bad they couldn't have faced off in their primes, it's as close a fight as you can come up with. I think Larry had a slightly better jab and a tad more power. One determining factor could be that Ali's defensive weakness was the hook and Larry's was the right hand(though more overhand than straight), that favors Ali.

Ambling Alp II wrote:
-Few sportswriters thought Holmes would win? What in the world are you talking about? Almost everyone who knew anything about boxing thought Holmes would win.
-Gift win over Young? No. That was not a gift win, not by the judges anyway. Young didn't do much at all.
-Holmes says he could have beaten Ali in 1974? So what? A fighter thinks he can beat someone else. Ali would have slapped Holmes silly in 1974.
-The Nation of Islam? They had nothing to do with Ali fighting Holmes. Ali had left them several years before that.

#1- Watch the documentary 'Muhammad and Larry' and you will see just how one-sided the press was.

#2- That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but almost no one with a functioning brain thinks Ali really won that.

#3- Again, that is your opinion. I'm in the Holmes camp on that logic. Larry gives great insight into Ali at that stage of his career and has said on multiple occasions Ali couldn't handle him anymore by that stage. From Zaire onward, Ali was an echo of his former self, becoming more flat footed and slow. Not the kind of fighter, who can best a Larry Holmes.

#4- Herbert Mohammad's son was in his corner during the Holmes fight. Don't tell me Ali didn't have ties or an active involvement with them. The fact is Mohammed's son and Islamist groups were still behind Ali and using him as a campaign board to recruite more members to the religion, and hoped to make a bundle off the fight. Plain and simple.

Dude, nobody was picking Ali past some hopeful fans that didn't really believe it. Everyone wanted Ali, but the mismatch that it was was exactly what anyone that knew anything expected.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Dude, nobody was picking Ali past some hopeful fans that didn't really believe it. Everyone wanted Ali, but the mismatch that it was was exactly what anyone that knew anything expected.

Tell that to Cosell and others in the mainstream media who were pro-Ali. Of course anyone with a functioning brain cell in the business, or diehard fans would have known it was a mismatch. But everyone bought into it because by all appearances, Ali lost so much weight and looked fighting trim. What they didn't know was all the diet pills and thyroid pills he took to look like that.

The media wanted him to win, he was beloved and Larry was 'boring'. Acting like he was the favorite is your typical bullshit.

@saadoffthedeck

Well hey hey......bubba...been a long time

So just to be clear, Henry believes the 10-0 Larry Holmes could handle Muhammad Ali because, well. . . . because Larry says so.

That Muhammad Ali treated sparring as everything but a serious contest is known by everyone except - apparently - Larry Holmes, who more likely chooses to overlook this information because it doesn't fit his narrative. The Hauser book relates a story where Ali got wind about what Holmes had been saying about their sparring sessions and beat him up the next time, had Holmes crying. Did it happen? Who knows? But sounds more believable to me than the 10-0 Larry Holmes being able to replicate what he did in sparring on a Muhammad Ali of the Jungle or Manila mindset. Holmes was many years off scraping past a 35 year old Ken Norton by one point.

Henry, you are among the most naive, impressionable posters I have encountered. Again and again you write these novellas only to see your ideas dismissed and mocked. 'His last KO was against Richard Dunn,' you say all the time, as if that actually means something. Tyson's last KO was versus Etienne. What of it?

HomicideHenry wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:
-Few sportswriters thought Holmes would win? What in the world are you talking about? Almost everyone who knew anything about boxing thought Holmes would win.
-Gift win over Young? No. That was not a gift win, not by the judges anyway. Young didn't do much at all.
-Holmes says he could have beaten Ali in 1974? So what? A fighter thinks he can beat someone else. Ali would have slapped Holmes silly in 1974.
-The Nation of Islam? They had nothing to do with Ali fighting Holmes. Ali had left them several years before that.

#1- Watch the documentary 'Muhammad and Larry' and you will see just how one-sided the press was.

#2- That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but almost no one with a functioning brain thinks Ali really won that.

#3- Again, that is your opinion. I'm in the Holmes camp on that logic. Larry gives great insight into Ali at that stage of his career and has said on multiple occasions Ali couldn't handle him anymore by that stage. From Zaire onward, Ali was an echo of his former self, becoming more flat footed and slow. Not the kind of fighter, who can best a Larry Holmes.

#4- Herbert Mohammad's son was in his corner during the Holmes fight. Don't tell me Ali didn't have ties or an active involvement with them. The fact is Mohammed's son and Islamist groups were still behind Ali and using him as a campaign board to recruite more members to the religion, and hoped to make a bundle off the fight. Plain and simple.

1. Glad you saw the documentary. Do you really think that is the whole story? There are plenty of members of the media who were strongly anti-Ali. Even those that liked him did not really think he was going to beat Holmes in 1980. Howard Cosell criticized Ali many times over the years. He did not pick Ali to beat Holmes.
2. Oh please. Young didn't jack in that fight. He even had to resort to putting his head outside of the ropes so he wouldn't get hurt. No way that decision was a "gift".
3. Larry gives great insight? Did it ever occur to you that it makes Holmes look better if he says that he could beat Ali by 1974?
Holmes had even had a 10-round fighter yet. He had beaten absolutely no one worth mentioning. He was very inexperienced. Ali beat Frazier and Foreman that year. It would have been a total mismatch.

4. Yes I am going to tell you that Ali did not active ties to the Nation of Islam in 1980. He had not for several years. Herbert Mohammad (not his son) was in his corner, but had been a member of the Nation of Islam for several years himself.

Start doing some research and use commonsense. If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it.

@tuan jim, great last post.

Ali post Zaire ...... just seemed to practice conditioning his body for rope a dope, any time a tv camera filmed him sparring.......thats all he would do....rather than beat up bis sparring partners...look at ali" sparring" dokes in 77.......example right there......plus ali was the biggest hearted and kindest of men ....he was always looking to help the younger guys......and by letting them beat on him.....he did that

Holmes on the other hand has always been a bitter mean spirited man, I have personally heard him on film ,say that 5 years earlier he was besting Ali in sparring....

Than on the Ali 30/30 espn documentary,perhaps mellowed by age he admitted ali gave him a black eye in sparring and he felt proud ali had given it to him and that ali used to bash him in sparring

Tuan_Jim wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:This is how it works, we come and we go, even the best of us. Marciano was a chump for not fighting until someone honorably rested the title from him.

Someone allowed him to earn it....she should have returned the favor. Keep going until you don't have it anymore....it is what it is......'till it ain't anymore.

You never cease to amaze me with your naivety.

Well I imagine it's no easy task to ceaselessly amaze you, as you have quite high standards.

And I am never less than in awe of your complex and exponentially expanded sophistication, and ever evolving degree of enlightenment.

This mutual admiration society will now be called to order.

If you would please read the minutes of the last meeting.....we can go on to new business.

mugabi wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:One of the hardest things to do is to convince people that we are not all children, and that we really are responsible for every moment of our lives.

I'm glad he fought Holmes, to officially end his claim to the HW crown, and allow Larry his due....His loss to Larry is no sadder than Ali beating and embarssing Liston in the first fight, and then scaring him to death in the second fight. Or torturing a Floyd Patterson who had a bad back, or giving George Foreman a lesson in character building. And it works both ways when you are the best of the best.

This is how it works, we come and we go, even the best of us. Marciano was a chump for not fighting until someone honorably rested the title from him.

Someone allowed him to earn it....she should have returned the favor. Keep going until you don't have it anymore....it is what it is......'till it ain't anymore.

.......shut up

Only if you ask nice, and explain where you feel I have fallen short. lol.

I'm a fan of boxing, and I don't see taking the title, and going home with it as being at all cricket.

So play, win, lose, retire. Enjoy, and let others have a chance.

Admit that father time is the GOAT, have your's and move on.


I'm not all that sentimental, though I do fully respect hard work, great skill, and good luck.

You realise these men are gambling with their health? Do you seriously expect Rocky Marciano to continue boxing until someone bludgeons him the way he bludgeoned Joe Louis? Scramble his brains and wind up like all of those punched out zombies round Stillman's, out of some altruistic concern for boxing? Only a complete moron would hold such an opinion.

Tuan_Jim wrote:You realise these men are gambling with their health? Do you seriously expect Rocky Marciano to continue boxing until someone bludgeons him the way he bludgeoned Joe Louis? Scramble his brains and wind up like all of those punched out zombies round Stillman's, out of some altruistic concern for boxing? Only a complete moron would hold such an opinion.

Well whose really "complete" these days?

Nah, I don't think any of the dumb things you are assuming and ramblin' on about. I did mean to say, that as a spectator, that's what I like. Like Maximus asks when he faces the crowd..."are you not entertained"? Well...no I'm not always..... it's exactly this GAMBLE that I..(and we all) pay to see cuz in case someone didn't tell ya, boxing is dangerous....thank god it's also VOLUNTARY.....lol ...so as a spectator I want to see the champion allow himself to enter, and then allow another to enter just as he did. I didn't say I would do likewise if I was the champion. I might have a completely different set of priorities either way if I was the participant in the quest for the championship.

By the way, IF a champion wants to fight (like Ali chose to fight Holmes) I'd rather defend his right to engage (all day long) than suffer fools who are so highly intellectual and complex....that they FEEL that THEIR will should be imposed on others. For example...if this very intellectual sophisticated "do gooder" were to attempt to "save the champ from himself" by getting a court order to bar him from practicing his craft, I would be available and willing to represent him in a court of law to do with himself as he wishes.

And although I'm pro life in my heart, I don't think MY wishes should be imposed on a woman who does not wish to give birth.....But....if I were somehow familiarly involved with either the champion who wishes to engage over his "pay grade" or the woman who is wrestling with the thought of an abortion, I might attempt to use my powers of persuasion to impact that ADULT"S decision.

So.....that's how entirely simply my thoughts are on this.

Tuan_Jim wrote:You realise these men are gambling with their health? Do you seriously expect Rocky Marciano to continue boxing until someone bludgeons him the way he bludgeoned Joe Louis? Scramble his brains and wind up like all of those punched out zombies round Stillman's, out of some altruistic concern for boxing? Only a complete moron would hold such an opinion.

.....

mugabi wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:You realise these men are gambling with their health? Do you seriously expect Rocky Marciano to continue boxing until someone bludgeons him the way he bludgeoned Joe Louis? Scramble his brains and wind up like all of those punched out zombies round Stillman's, out of some altruistic concern for boxing? Only a complete moron would hold such an opinion.

need any one say anymore!

Not to the simpletons (I say simpletons in plural since they are never a singular entity....a person is smart...it's "people" who fall short) who imagine that "boxing" is really the core subject matter.

The comment that Ali was finished after the rumble in the jungle is nonsense.

Sure he wasnt the 60s Ali ...but that Ali was gone even by 1971.

From 1975 to 1977 Ali beat a still formidable Frazier, Norton ,Shavers (the last two who gave Holmes hell),Young and Lyle (who gave Foreman hell)......that version of Ali was still a formidable HW when he wanted to be..but he was on his money making world tour of quick defences so for the first time u saw Ali frequently come in fat,clowning ,more intent on putting on a show and ill trained....after the Shavers fight forget about it he became totally washed up and got his comeuppance in another of those bum of the month club type fights against Spinks.Also at that point it was clear Parkinson's had really kicked in.look at his 1977 interviews and the slow staring glance.

Holmes couldnt put away a guy who had Parkinsons and was drugged up to his eyeballs on thyroid medicines.

I would take the commited 1975-77 Ali to beat Holmes much less the 60"s and zaire versions

mugabi wrote:The comment that Ali was finished after the rumble in the jungle is nonsense.

Sure he wasnt the 60s Ali ...but that Ali was gone even by 1971.

From 1975 to 1977 Ali beat a still formidable Frazier, Norton ,Shavers (the last two who gave Holmes hell),Young and Lyle (who gave Foreman hell)......that version of Ali was still a formidable HW when he wanted to be..but he was on his money making world tour of quick defences so for the first time u saw Ali frequently come in fat,clowning ,more intent on putting on a show and ill trained....after the Shavers fight forget about it he became totally washed up and got his comeuppance in another of those bum of the month club type fights against Spinks.Also at that point it was clear Parkinson's had really kicked in.look at his 1977 interviews and the slow staring glance.

Holmes couldnt put away a guy who had Parkinsons and was drugged up to his eyeballs on thyroid medicines.

I would take the commited 1975-77 Ali to beat Holmes much less the 60"s and zaire versions

I don't think Frazier was all that formidable. Before Ali he had a piss poor showing against Ellis, and it's a well known fact that Frazier was legally blind in one eye and had arthritis in his back and joints. He was wearing contact lenses when he rematched Foreman for crying out loud, because his vision at that time was like 20/100 in one eye. The fact is, in my eyes at least, it was two guys who were older, slower, more flat footed and it gave the appearance of both men still being awesome fighters, when the fact was they were seriously in decline.

As for the other matches.... Lyle was a premature stoppage (Lyle was ahead on the cards), Young was robbed (as was Norton). Shavers is sort of the enigma. He was dangerous, yes, but he was also a man who had not really done much at that stage. Mind you, the Holmes fights were two-three years away. Prior to facing Ali, the only formidable name that Shavers beaten was Henry Clark. Sure people bring up the draw with Young, but Jimmy was 13-4 as a pro at that time. The fact is most of Shavers victories were against outright tomato cans and journeymen by the time he faced Ali. He was greatly inexperienced against good fighters, and even then----- he almost knocked Ali out in the second round. Shavers had horrible conditioning, and he wasn't a good boxer, just a monster hitter. Those things also contributed to him losing to Ali, and even at that it the fight was so bad (for Ali, not Shavers) that the President of Madison Square Garden BANNED Ali from ever fighting there again.

These are the facts that no Ali diehard wants to admit. I think Larry is more the realist when it comes to Ali. And, again, watch the fight---- then watch Holmes vs Norton, Holmes vs Cooney, Holmes vs Shavers, etc. and you ask yourself whether Larry didn't treat Ali with kid gloves. He was more than generous and kind in that fight than he should have been. He didn't have to be, but he was. He begged the referee to stop the fight more than once. He didn't want to hurt Ali, but the referee gave him no choice. Believe me, had Holmes started out as viscous as he ended the fight---- the fight would have been over inside of four rounds.