BoxRec

Underated overrated BS should stop

Wha we have is arguably 2 of the best P4P boxers inthr game right now facing each other lets jusy sit back and watch the fireworks!

I don't think either is underrated or overrated. The most overrated thing between the 2 is Freddie Roach and how much credit Roach gets for apparently rejuvenating Cotto. Cotto was always a class operator, he's lost some fights but they were bad stylistic match ups, Trout was simply too big and lanky for Cotto and that version of Trout troubles Cotto now or any time in Cottos career. So he beat a 1 legged and long in the tooth Martinez? That's where all this hype comes from, but I always thought Cotto had a good style to trouble even a healthy Martinez, much less the version he fought. Cotto is a great fighter, I think Canelo is a great young fighter.. I will agree he struggled against Trout and Lara, but the truth is no one looks against Lara when he gets on his bike like he did against Canelo and I actually thought Canelo beat Trout rather clearly (it was close but still a clear win for Canelo).

I think Cotto has overall better boxing skills and he'll have to use his experience and slow down the stronger, younger fighter with a good body attack to win this fight. Cotto has the tools to win this fight, has always had the tools and if he's committed to the fight like he was against Mayweather (pre-Roach), he'll have a good chance of winning this fight. Cotto is def. a confident fighter these days and by what I've seen he has been for a past few years, even before Roach started training him, with Trout being his only real disappointment post his rematch with Margarito.

Canelo is the stronger of the 2, maybe not the bigger puncher, but I believe he's physically stronger. Although I think Cotto is the better boxer, I think Canelos defense and punch resistance are better than Cottos with Canelos punch resistance being the bigger advantage. But just like Cotto, it will be key for Canelo to key in on the body and slow down the older Cotto. This fight will honestly be a battle of who can control the body and work the body more efficiently through the early rounds and it will be a big factor on who wins the latter part of the fight.

How I see this fight playing out, I think Cotto will be the one who finds a home for the body early in the fight, but being early in the fight Canelo will come back with some good body attacks of his own by around the 4th round.. The fight will then begin to heat up, with both guys starting to land more frequently to both the head and body. Both guys have been known to fade later in fights and this fight will be no exception, both guys will be showing signs of fatigue by mid-way due to the pace of the fight. As the fight gets into to the second half I see Cotto edging most of the rounds by the narrowest of margins leaving a lot of rounds up for grabs. At the end of the night I believe most will feel Cotto did enough to earn a decision, but Canelo will get the benefit of the doubt and win by SD in a fight that was competitive, with both guys having great moments but just the feel that Cotto did a little bit more.

N2 Shape wrote:Underated overrated BS should stop

Wha we have is arguably 2 of the best P4P boxers inthr game right now facing each other lets jusy sit back and watch the fireworks!

2 of the best p4p ??? Bullsh1t. Only if you are talking about top p4p draws.

jezzamundo wrote:I think Canelo-Cotto is one of the more intriguing matchups we've seen for a long time. I slightly favour Cotto to win, as long as he can keep it a boxing match - if it turns to slugfest, then the odds favour Canelo, who is the bigger man and most likely has better punch resistance and more punching power. I really think Freddie Roach is bringing out the best in Cotto and the Cotto of today wouldn't lose to Austin Trout and would give Mayweather a much closer fight than he previously did.

While a few people here are underrating Canelo, I think it's fair to say that he is overrated by many and flattered by his record. I had him beating Trout by a single point and would have been happy to see Trout given the nod in that fight, but the judges scored it to Canelo by 3 (generous), 5 (very generous) and 9 (incompetent or corrupt) rounds. Mayweather absolutely schooled him in their fight, yet he managed to be given a draw on one scorecard and the other cards weren't as wide as I saw the fight. The Lara fight could have gone either way, but the 117-111 Canelo scorecard was a joke.

Canelo is a hard puncher with good boxing skills, but he's short with short reach (those things won't be a problem against Cotto) and for a young guy his stamina isn't great. He has fairly low punch output and rarely fights the full 3 minutes of a round.

Cotto used to be overrated, but I think he's actually underrated by many now.

Spot on

I admire Cotto and his career very much, and have him in my top 10 favorite fighters of my time.
And I'm not a big Canelo fan, but I recognize his talent, potential and deficiencies(which are diminishing) and it's obvious that he's the 1st guy in line who'll carry shitty, expensive boxing PPVs forward-
And this is just my opinion, and has nothing to do with over or underration, for me, it's an eye test thing.
I think my guy Cotto is going to get battered around the ring on the way to a stoppage loss, and Canelo will probably get far too much credit going forward for beating up an old Miguel.

ikorolev wrote:

N2 Shape wrote:Underated overrated BS should stop

Wha we have is arguably 2 of the best P4P boxers inthr game right now facing each other lets jusy sit back and watch the fireworks!

2 of the best p4p ??? Bullsh1t. Only if you are talking about top p4p draws.

Must have upset you? Maybe I was a bit broad as I dont believe they are #1 and #2 P4P however they are 2 of the best by that I mean they are world class operators

I don't know what some of you guys are watching, no clue, it's baffling. Canelo looks idiotic when trying to cut off the ring, even more pathetic when backing up, looks uncomfortable under any kind of real pressure, takes rounds off more than two ton Tony Tarver ---> stamina is highly questionable, and let's not forget his biggest moment he clammed up like a bitch and just bent over and took it for 12 rounds against a smaller guy with little power. He was happy to survive, didn't fight like he really wanted it just happy to be there. And that is who will beat Cotto?? Keep dreaming, the kid has a size and judging advantage every fight he's had more help in his career than anyone I can think of. Hopefully Cotto stops him so the three blind mice can't steal it. Only reason the kid is favored is because he knows he just has to keep it close and last 12... hell he didn't have to win ONE CLEAR fornicating ROUND to get a draw against Money. Why do people think he is so great. Somebody explain that.

I don't see Canelo getting a gift in this one.

Cotto is a huge name he's no GGG or Lara popularity wise, he's an established name who is known all around the world.

Canelo will have to really win convincingly to get the W and i dont see him dominating Cotto.

This as even as a fight gets.

SFW wrote:I don't know what some of you guys are watching, no clue, it's baffling. Canelo looks idiotic when trying to cut off the ring, even more pathetic when backing up, looks uncomfortable under any kind of real pressure, takes rounds off more than two ton Tony Tarver ---> stamina is highly questionable, and let's not forget his biggest moment he clammed up like a bitch and just bent over and took it for 12 rounds against a smaller guy with little power. He was happy to survive, didn't fight like he really wanted it just happy to be there. And that is who will beat Cotto?? Keep dreaming, the kid has a size and judging advantage every fight he's had more help in his career than anyone I can think of. Hopefully Cotto stops him so the three blind mice can't steal it. Only reason the kid is favored is because he knows he just has to keep it close and last 12... hell he didn't have to win ONE CLEAR effing ROUND to get a draw against Money. Why do people think he is so great. Somebody explain that.

Obviously, a Cotto fan's review of Canelo but I agree with a lot of it. The Floyd fight was one sided but I really think that it was Lara that exposed Canelo. He's slow of foot and in hand speed compared to a world class fighter. Which is why I think that Cotto will command the early to mid rounds of the fight. But i'm not sold on Cotto being able to handle the pace he sets in those earlier rounds and he will run out of gas and limp to that finish line just like he's done in his fights with Margarito. Margarito, loaded wraps aside, had the recipe to defeat Cotto and it was to never let Cotto rest and even though he was getting waxed, Cotto had to work every second of every round. I believe that had their second fight not been called off because of Margarito's eye, that was going to be a hellacious finish and i'm not sure Cotto would have made it to the last bell to collect his lopsided decision.

So it's tough to call the winner in this one as it really could be both guys as it will all come down to Cotto's conditioning. If he's in great shape to fight every second of every round then he wins in a shutout. If he's not in that kind of shape then he's likely going to get knocked out late.

The judges won't come into play.
Except for the armchair keyboard kind of hindsight judges, who will afterwards be talking about how old Cotto looked.
As much as I love Miguel's career and as highly as I rate him, this is a showcase fight for The Ginger, and he's going to win impressively and get way too much credit for it, in my opinion.
Obviously, a lot of you here rate Ginger's skills far less than I do. I see improvement in his game following almost every fight he has and think he's going to have one of the better careers in boxing for the next decade.

Looking forward to this fight though, because I love to see the apple cart get turned over, and especially so when it's one of my favs to flip the script. Pulling for the Cotto win!

I dont understand the relatively low odds for this fight. Cotto is tailor made for Canelo. He's gonna hurt him to the body. Bad. Probably stops him late. Cotto isnt a good enough athlete to stay out of range against Canelo, and fighting from distance and moving is what troubles Canelo. It's not in Cotto's nature to fight backing up. He's got too much pride. And it will get him busted up here against a bigger, stronger, younger man.

caldo2025 wrote:We saw what happened in the Canelo-Lara fight and how the judges handed him that victory (one judge actually scored it 117-111 which is inconceivable).

i don't think wild outlier scoring is a sign
of a fight being fixed, rather the opposite.
if i fix something, i make it close, not in a
blatant way.

i actually think there is not terribly much
real fixing in today's top fights. things leak,
everyone has access to media and so on.
the dirty stuff happens today in rankings
and who is matched up with whom.

Fiasco coming in Canelo/Cotto fight

I hear Donald Trump bought tickets.

man wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:We saw what happened in the Canelo-Lara fight and how the judges handed him that victory (one judge actually scored it 117-111 which is inconceivable).

i don't think wild outlier scoring is a sign
of a fight being fixed, rather the opposite.
if i fix something, i do not close, not in a
blatant way.

i actually think there is not terribly much
real fixing in today's top fights. things leak,
everyone has access to media and so on.
the dirty stuff happens today in rankings
and who is matched up with whom.

Judges have been fixing fights forever, Man. Not sure if you were joking or not but exactly when does the media have access to judges? When was the last time a judge was cornered and interviewed after a fight regarding a questionable scoring? Quite the opposite. Boxing judges are hidden purposely and all that we get to see is there name and score. I've always said that Boxing should interview these judges after the fight to explain briefly how they came to a decision in a close fight. Not every fight but any fight that was either a close unanimous decision, split decision or draw. Boxing allows referee's to be interviewed on camera after a fight in some cases. Why not interview judges and make them a little more accountable for deciding on a contest we just spent money or time on?

Couldn't agree more caldo, hit the nail on the head

caldo2025 wrote:Judges have been fixing fights forever, Man. Not sure if you were joking or not but exactly when does the media have access to judges? When was the last time a judge was cornered and interviewed after a fight regarding a questionable scoring?

the people who scored bradly pac 1 were
dragged through the mud for months in
a row. fixes in close fights? maybe, but
not with outlier score cards. i really think
the bad stuff is happening elsewhere.

what does happen is fighters having power
to choose judges. but that doesn't mean it
is a fix. floyd had a style that certain judges
appreciate more than others and they can
be very honest in doing so. but buying in
that judge is not exactly the same as paying
him for a score. it might have the same effect,
but it is a different thing still, it especially
keeps the integrity of the judge in place.
cause what can he do? deny the job? score
against his conviction?

caldo2025 wrote: Obviously, a Cotto fan's review of Canelo but I agree with a lot of it. The Floyd fight was one sided but I really think that it was Lara that exposed Canelo. He's slow of foot and in hand speed compared to a world class fighter. Which is why I think that Cotto will command the early to mid rounds of the fight. But i'm not sold on Cotto being able to handle the pace he sets in those earlier rounds and he will run out of gas and limp to that finish line just like he's done in his fights with Margarito. Margarito, loaded wraps aside, had the recipe to defeat Cotto and it was to never let Cotto rest and even though he was getting waxed, Cotto had to work every second of every round. I believe that had their second fight not been called off because of Margarito's eye, that was going to be a hellacious finish and i'm not sure Cotto would have made it to the last bell to collect his lopsided decision.

So it's tough to call the winner in this one as it really could be both guys as it will all come down to Cotto's conditioning. If he's in great shape to fight every second of every round then he wins in a shutout. If he's not in that kind of shape then he's likely going to get knocked out late.

Very unlikely Canelo can match Margaritos workrate. In fact he is the opposite of Margarito, he is low volume. I think Canelos wins the fight if he wins exchanges. Cotto has a better footwork but that doesnt mean he can outbox Canelo in exchanges. And he will need to get in there and deliver shots. Just running wont do him any good, ask Lara. The best runner in the division could not beat Canelo.

Cotto flat out refuses to do VADA testing for this fight and you lot talk about a fiasco coming on the judges scorecards?

VADA testing becomes mandatory for WBC sanctioned bouts from February onwards so it's no wonder Cotto is giving up the title.

Cotto doesnt give a crap about belts. He cares about money. He knows he needs to be yoked to the gills to stand half a chance against Canelo's barrage.

Tarkus wrote:

caldo2025 wrote: Obviously, a Cotto fan's review of Canelo but I agree with a lot of it. The Floyd fight was one sided but I really think that it was Lara that exposed Canelo. He's slow of foot and in hand speed compared to a world class fighter. Which is why I think that Cotto will command the early to mid rounds of the fight. But i'm not sold on Cotto being able to handle the pace he sets in those earlier rounds and he will run out of gas and limp to that finish line just like he's done in his fights with Margarito. Margarito, loaded wraps aside, had the recipe to defeat Cotto and it was to never let Cotto rest and even though he was getting waxed, Cotto had to work every second of every round. I believe that had their second fight not been called off because of Margarito's eye, that was going to be a hellacious finish and i'm not sure Cotto would have made it to the last bell to collect his lopsided decision.

So it's tough to call the winner in this one as it really could be both guys as it will all come down to Cotto's conditioning. If he's in great shape to fight every second of every round then he wins in a shutout. If he's not in that kind of shape then he's likely going to get knocked out late.

Very unlikely Canelo can match Margaritos workrate. In fact he is the opposite of Margarito, he is low volume. I think Canelos wins the fight if he wins exchanges. Cotto has a better footwork but that doesnt mean he can outbox Canelo in exchanges. And he will need to get in there and deliver shots. Just running wont do him any good, ask Lara. The best runner in the division could not beat Canelo.

Let's not get crazy and say that Lara couldn't beat Canelo. He did it clearly to me and most other honest observers of that fight. I've tried re-watching and re-scoring that fight on 2 different occasions and being as generous as I possibly be to Canelo, I still can't come up with him winning that fight. Let's just say that if Canelo fought the same exact fight that Lara did and had the same results, no doubt Canelo gets his hands raised. Don't get me wrong though. I never want to see a fighter rewarded for running and making an unappealing fight so I'm glad Lara lost. But I'm not oblivious to the fact that if you scored the fight objectively, Lara won the fight.

I agree, it's a really tough fight to call though and also agree that Cotto's conditioning is the key. I don't see Canelo winning the exchanges, Cotto's too quick. So I've Cotto winning most of the early and mid rounds until he slows down like he does around the 8th or 9th round. That's when Canelo's gotta get him out of there. I don't think Canelo can land efficiently enough against Cotto to win a decision on points. Cotto clearly does everything better than Canelo but can he go 12 tough ones. It's been a while man.

Cotto vs Canelo could turn out to be a low action fight like Lee vs Quillin where both guys will just wait trying to catch an opponent ...

caldo2025 wrote: Let's not get crazy and say that Lara couldn't beat Canelo. He did it clearly to me and most other honest observers of that fight. I've tried re-watching and re-scoring that fight on 2 different occasions and being as generous as I possibly be to Canelo, I still can't come up with him winning that fight. Let's just say that if Canelo fought the same exact fight that Lara did and had the same results, no doubt Canelo gets his hands raised. Don't get me wrong though. I never want to see a fighter rewarded for running and making an unappealing fight so I'm glad Lara lost. But I'm not oblivious to the fact that if you scored the fight objectively, Lara won the fight.

I agree, it's a really tough fight to call though and also agree that Cotto's conditioning is the key. I don't see Canelo winning the exchanges, Cotto's too quick. So I've Cotto winning most of the early and mid rounds until he slows down like he does around the 8th or 9th round. That's when Canelo's gotta get him out of there. I don't think Canelo can land efficiently enough against Cotto to win a decision on points. Cotto clearly does everything better than Canelo but can he go 12 tough ones. It's been a while man.

I've been told that the scoring in boxing was subjective. If you are saying Lara ran too much then I can say that he lost on ring generalship alone. It doesn't matter what boxing PhDs are scoring when Lara was dealt a loss and my point is that so will be Cotto if he just runs.

I cant quite agree with speed argument either. Trout was loosing in exchanges to Canelo, was even dropped once. And Trout outboxed Cotto. Canelo is a better boxer then they give credit to and has power and accuracy in exchanges. Cotto is very good too though it’s a tossup for me. However I dont see Cottos stamina as a big issue in this fight because 1. older fighters getting better rather then worse these days and 2. Canelos stamina isn't great either, not comparable to Margarito.

Pureist wrote:And canelos claim to fame? Very close fights with trout and Lara, was schooled by floyd, both fought Mosley and he favours cotto

How did each guy fare against Trout? The only man each has faced at 154 lbs. Who does Trout favor?

I'll wait. But I already know the answer.

You can skew your argument any way you want. But let's play both sides here. Not just the one that you think favors your argument.

Tarkus wrote:

caldo2025 wrote: Let's not get crazy and say that Lara couldn't beat Canelo. He did it clearly to me and most other honest observers of that fight. I've tried re-watching and re-scoring that fight on 2 different occasions and being as generous as I possibly be to Canelo, I still can't come up with him winning that fight. Let's just say that if Canelo fought the same exact fight that Lara did and had the same results, no doubt Canelo gets his hands raised. Don't get me wrong though. I never want to see a fighter rewarded for running and making an unappealing fight so I'm glad Lara lost. But I'm not oblivious to the fact that if you scored the fight objectively, Lara won the fight.

I agree, it's a really tough fight to call though and also agree that Cotto's conditioning is the key. I don't see Canelo winning the exchanges, Cotto's too quick. So I've Cotto winning most of the early and mid rounds until he slows down like he does around the 8th or 9th round. That's when Canelo's gotta get him out of there. I don't think Canelo can land efficiently enough against Cotto to win a decision on points. Cotto clearly does everything better than Canelo but can he go 12 tough ones. It's been a while man.

I've been told that the scoring in boxing was subjective. If you are saying Lara ran too much then I can say that he lost on ring generalship alone. It doesn't matter what boxing PhDs are scoring when Lara was dealt a loss and my point is that so will be Cotto if he just runs.

I cant quite agree with speed argument either. Trout was loosing in exchanges to Canelo, was even dropped once. And Trout outboxed Cotto. Canelo is a better boxer then they give credit to and has power and accuracy in exchanges. Cotto is very good too though it’s a tossup for me. However I dont see Cottos stamina as a big issue in this fight because 1. older fighters getting better rather then worse these days and 2. Canelos stamina isn't great either, not comparable to Margarito.

You know, I don't really know how to explain what Lara did to Canelo that night. You can't really call it running because he threw a lot of punches and landed a great percentage of them. He ran after he did what he thought was enough to win the round. The style was just frustrating to watch for me because i really thought that i'd see more of a Lara/Angulo type affair. I invited a bunch of buddies loyal to UFC over to the house touting the fight to be a can't miss. They looked at me like I had 3 heads after that fight. But in terms of ring generalship, Sugar Ray Leonard would have been pumped to put on that kind of display Lara did and we'd all have applauded for SRL after the fight. The Cuban style just rubs fans the wrong way these days and the fight was on the heels of Rigo's criticism so it was bad timing all around for a style like that.

I'm one of the many that feel Trout defeated Canelo even with that flash knockdown so i'm not sure that your argument has much weight in terms of the Trout fights. Something is definitely different about Cotto these days though and i'm not ready to say Roach is a genius because they haven't defeated anyone really but Roach has rediscovered that dynamic left hand of Cotto's and built an offense around it. That is going to be the punch of the fight IMO. Canelo eats several of those and he will go to sleep.

caldo2025 wrote: You know, I don't really know how to explain what Lara did to Canelo that night. You can't really call it running because he threw a lot of punches and landed a great percentage of them. He ran after he did what he thought was enough to win the round. The style was just frustrating to watch for me because i really thought that i'd see more of a Lara/Angulo type affair. I invited a bunch of buddies loyal to UFC over to the house touting the fight to be a can't miss. They looked at me like I had 3 heads after that fight. But in terms of ring generalship, Sugar Ray Leonard would have been pumped to put on that kind of display Lara did and we'd all have applauded for SRL after the fight. The Cuban style just rubs fans the wrong way these days and the fight was on the heels of Rigo's criticism so it was bad timing all around for a style like that.

I'm one of the many that feel Trout defeated Canelo even with that flash knockdown so i'm not sure that your argument has much weight in terms of the Trout fights. Something is definitely different about Cotto these days though and i'm not ready to say Roach is a genius because they haven't defeated anyone really but Roach has rediscovered that dynamic left hand of Cotto's and built an offense around it. That is going to be the punch of the fight IMO. Canelo eats several of those and he will go to sleep.

Thats the thing when you take fantasies like ring generalship into scoring then the things like trends determine who gets the nod. Current trend seem to be going against running. Which is not too bad.

I though Canelo outboxed Trout quite conclusively. If his stamina was better on the day and he did not gave away second half of the late rounds because of that, the win would have been very clear.