BoxRec

elmersalsa wrote:Marvelous would be all wrong for Sugar Ray in '82. That's why Leonard didn't want none of that monster. THE WEIGHT would've been too much. Plus, a hungry and complete boxer like Marvelous was at his very best. Only by looking to what he did to Caveman Lee and Tommy Hearns was scary.

Marvelous wins this fight. The physical advantages and equally match in talent, plus at his comfortable weight class is key

That right. It had nothing to do with the detached retna. It doesn't matter than no one was talking about this fight in 1982. Leonard was obviously a scaredy cat who did want to take on a challenge which nobody was talking about. So he went into retirement, knowing in five years he would have his chance by using his crystal ball.

The talent level was obviously equal in 1982,and somehow Hagler declined more in the next five years than Leonard who had one fight in that entire time.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Marvelous would be all wrong for Sugar Ray in '82. That's why Leonard didn't want none of that monster. THE WEIGHT would've been too much. Plus, a hungry and complete boxer like Marvelous was at his very best. Only by looking to what he did to Caveman Lee and Tommy Hearns was scary.

Marvelous wins this fight. The physical advantages and equally match in talent, plus at his comfortable weight class is key

That right. It had nothing to do with the detached retna. It doesn't matter than no one was talking about this fight in 1982. Leonard was obviously a scaredy cat who did want to take on a challenge which nobody was talking about. So he went into retirement, knowing in five years he would have his chance by using his crystal ball.

The talent level was obviously equal in 1982,and somehow Hagler declined more in the next five years than Leonard who had one fight in that entire time.

A lot of people talk about Leonard/Hagler and claim that Leonard had all the advantages in their fight in 1987 & it staggers me.

I can accept that Leonard was a calculating & shrewd guy; and yes, Marvin was faded in 1987 & that's why Leonard came back to fight him, but that is no secret; Leonard has openly admitted that, but it's staggering when folk spin it as if Leonard had all the advantages & wasn't taking a risk.

As we all know, Leonard was coming back after one unimpressive performance in five years; was returning after habitual cocaine use & was going up two weights to face the king of the MWs who'd obilterated anyone who dared to take his crown.

By '87, Hagler wasn't vintage, but he was still formidable & it was a massive performance from Sugar Ray that night.

Great performance by Sugar Ray in '87, no doubt, but the fight, THE REAL FIGHT, should have been in 1982.

Just thinking about it, it was a dream match between the World's Undisputed Welterweight Champion, challenging the World's Undisputed Middleweight Champion in 1982 or the beginning of 1983. It would've had more drama and of course a more fiercing and competitive fight with possible knockdowns, cuts, bloody lips and black eyes.

I know BOTH would've prepared rigurously for the fight. But at the end of the matter, it would've been all Marvelous. Too strong and probably faster in his own weight class. I don't see Sugar Ray hurting him. But, I could see Marvelous knocking Sugar Ray out.

The fight should have been in 1982. (Even though it could not have, since even before the eye injury Leonard was scheduled to defend the welterweight title against Roger Stafford.)

Hagler had a lot of trouble with a past it Duran in 1983, but of course Leonard had no chance. Even though he beat Hagler in 1987 when Hagler was closer to his best than Leonard was to his. It was hopeless.

And course if Leonard would have fought Hagler, it was only because he was afraid of fighting Hearns or Duran again. (Whom he already beat.)

On one hand, just like Syntax said Leonard stated clearly that he'd seen that Hagler had slipped and that's what sparked his comeback.

On the other...immediately after the final bell of Duran's pts loss to Marvin he went to Leonard at ringside and said "you can beat him". Duran always thought Ray would win even back in 83.

Well, you guys think Sugar Ray, of the Kevin Howard fight has a chance with Marvelous in '84? Hagler was there at that fight. I think he was smiling inside of him like saying, "You fight me pretty boy, and I'll be filthy rich by destroying you. You ain't no match for me"

You guys really believe he beats Hagler of '84 or the one that ate The Hitman for dinner? No way! That's a big illusion and a big task for Leonard to overcome. Way too much. Leonard DOES NOT BELONG IN THE RING WITH MARVELOUS before 1985.

As a matter of fact, I can't see Leonard beating The Hitman at 154 and above. I can't see him beat the great Mike McCallum @154 and above, neither a devastating puncher like Julian Jackson. That's too much for him.

Since he got knocked down by Kevin Howard (a flash knockdown in a fight that otherwise dominated) after a two year layoff, Leonard would certainly have no chance against Hagler. Hagler (who got knocked down by Juan Roldan), was obviously right that he would destroy the pretty boy. He sure proved that.

Really Hagler-Leonard could not have happened before 1985, since Leonard did not belong in the ring against him.The fight would not have been sanctioned. (Only the greats like Roldan, Tony Sibson, and Caveman Lee belonged in there at that time) However, Leonard somehow belonged in the ring with him after that by not fighting.

Hearns was not able to destroy Leonard at 147 or 164, but at 154 he obviously would. Hearns was frailish at 147 but a monster at 154. Leonard would be crushed any man that can win a decision over Luigi Minchillo at 154. Leonard would have been terrified of Julian Jackson. Leonard always afraid of a challenge, never would taken that fight.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Since he got knocked down by Kevin Howard (a flash knockdown in a fight that otherwise dominated) after a two year layoff, Leonard would certainly have no chance against Hagler. Hagler (who got knocked down by Juan Roldan), was obviously right that he would destroy the pretty boy. He sure proved that.

Really Hagler-Leonard could not have happened before 1985, since Leonard did not belong in the ring against him.The fight would not have been sanctioned. (Only the greats like Roldan, Tony Sibson, and Caveman Lee belonged in there at that time) However, Leonard somehow belonged in the ring with him after that by not fighting.

Hearns was not able to destroy Leonard at 147 or 164, but at 154 he obviously would. Hearns was frailish at 147 but a monster at 154. Leonard would be crushed any man that can win a decision over Luigi Minchillo at 154. Leonard would have been terrified of Julian Jackson. Leonard always afraid of a challenge, never would taken that fight.

Leonard KNEW he couldn't beat Marvelous after the Kevin Howard fight. That's why he retired by saying in his own words: " I don't have it"

Leonard vs Hagler or Hearns at 160 and 154 is not a good match. He would've got blown away. He doesn't belong in the ring with those two. This is not 147lbs, folks.

I always wished Leonard would have fought Hagler at 160. Then we would know if he could have beaten him.
Leonard at 154 has no chance against Hearns. Doubtful it would have been sanctioned since Leonard didn't deserve to be in the same ring with him. Hearns got beat by Leonard at welter, but 7 pounds is everything. Hearns couldn't destroy Leonard at 164, but somehow that apparently was more ideal for Leonard than him.
Besides, Leonard is no Luigi Minchillo who went the distance with the monster Hearns.

Leonard-Hearns at 160? Leonard is no legend like Iran Barkley. No chance here.

elmersalsa wrote:Herol Graham would've beaten that Marvelous in 1987, too. I want to know a reason why not? Marvelous was fading and Graham was coming up as a good contender. That's why I don't call that Sugar Ray win a great deal like some people in here thought it was. It was a CALCULATED STRATEGY, nothing else.

Herol seemed to find a way to lose his biggest fights and a Hagler matchup would have been no different

Ambling Alp II wrote:I always wished Leonard would have fought Hagler at 160. Then we would know if he could have beaten him.
Leonard at 154 has no chance against Hearns. Doubtful it would have been sanctioned since Leonard didn't deserve to be in the same ring with him. Hearns got beat by Leonard at welter, but 7 pounds is everything. Hearns couldn't destroy Leonard at 164, but somehow that apparently was more ideal for Leonard than him.
Besides, Leonard is no Luigi Minchillo who went the distance with the monster Hearns.

Leonard-Hearns at 160? Leonard is no legend like Iran Barkley. No chance here.

An almost supposedly shot Hearns EMBARRASSED Leonard at 168lbs. Anybody that believes that that fight was a draw gotta be crazy. He put Sugar Ray eating dust with two knockdowns. I imagine a prime Hearns at 154lbs? It wouldn't be a fair match of what we have witnessed. Hearns had all the advantages, including weight. The weight suited for Tommy. That's LOGICAL.

HAGLER would've not lost to Leonard in '82 or any other year before 1986. Marvelous is ALL WRONG for Sugar Ray imo.

Luigi Minchillo had better chin than Ray. It doesn't matter. Hearns won comfortably. The BIGGER THE WEIGHT, THE BETTER FOR THE HITMAN vs Leonard

You would have to be crazy to think Leonard deserved a draw in a fight where he landed more punches and hurt his opponent more times than he was hurt himself.
He was knocked down twice (counting the first one where Hearns hit him in the back of the head and pushed him to the canvas.) No reason to look at the other 10 rounds is there?

Hearns certainly had all the advantages over Leonard (if we don't count minor things like chin, speed, stamina acurracy etc.) That is logical.

Hagler is all wrong for Leonard. Remember, Hagler somehow declined further than Leonard who was not fighting.

Of course Luigi Minchillo had a better chin that Leonard. How could anyone possibly argue with that?
Besdies Luigi proved himself over and over that he could go the distance against so many other great fighters. There was... well I'm sure there was someone worth mentioning.
Besides all Luigi lasted all the way until the 4th round against the legendary Alvaro Scapelli before being stopped.

At 154, it would hopeless for Leonard against the Hitman. The bigger the weight, the better for the Hitman!
Remember Hearns would somehow have been bigger at 154 than he was at 162 when he could not take out Leonard. Must be that modern math.

Ambling Alp II wrote:You would have to be crazy to think Leonard deserved a draw in a fight where he landed more punches and hurt his opponent more times than he was hurt himself.
He was knocked down twice (counting the first one where Hearns hit him in the back of the head and pushed him to the canvas.) No reason to look at the other 10 rounds is there?

Hearns certainly had all the advantages over Leonard (if we don't count minor things like chin, speed, stamina acurracy etc.) That is logical.

Hagler is all wrong for Leonard. Remember, Hagler somehow declined further than Leonard who was not fighting.

Of course Luigi Minchillo had a better chin that Leonard. How could anyone possibly argue with that?
Besdies Luigi proved himself over and over that he could go the distance against so many other great fighters. There was... well I'm sure there was someone worth mentioning.
Besides all Luigi lasted all the way until the 4th round against the legendary Alvaro Scapelli before being stopped.

At 154, it would hopeless for Leonard against the Hitman. The bigger the weight, the better for the Hitman!
Remember Hearns would somehow have been bigger at 154 than he was at 162 when he could not take out Leonard. Must be that modern math.

Hearns CREAMED LEONARD being himself almost shot, according to Leonard. Leonard is not a good match for Hearns above 147 and it's proven. Believe me, I wouldn't want to see a massacre at 154lbs where The Hitman proved, WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that he was way better and more comfortable than Leonard at 154lbs. But, your love for Leonard doesn't make you see beyond reality.

Hearns just creamed Leonard in their 2nd fight; It was a slaughter. Even though he was hurt by Leonard more times than he hurt Leonard. And lets remember the all important point that Leonard supposedly thought Hearns was shot, which is somehow relevant.

Hearns and Leonard fought at welterweight in 1981, just a couple of years before they would have fought at 154. Hearns could not hurt Leonard at all, was hurt several times himself, and was stopped. However, why should we think about that fight? That would be just crazy talk.

The fight we need to focus on is the one that took place above 160, about six years after the fight at 154 would have taken place.

That makes sense right? Look at the fight that happened six years after they would have fought at 154, and disregard the one only two years before they fought at 154.

Even though the bigger the weight the better for Hearns, he only got a draw. So even though you would think that Hearns would do worse at 154 than, it would have been a massacre win for Hearns. Makes total sense.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Hearns just creamed Leonard in their 2nd fight; It was a slaughter. Even though he was hurt by Leonard more times than he hurt Leonard. And lets remember the all important point that Leonard supposedly thought Hearns was shot, which is somehow relevant.

Hearns and Leonard fought at welterweight in 1981, just a couple of years before they would have fought at 154. Hearns could not hurt Leonard at all, was hurt several times himself, and was stopped. However, why should we think about that fight? That would be just crazy talk.

The fight we need to focus on is the one that took place above 160, about six years after the fight at 154 would have taken place.

That makes sense right? Look at the fight that happened six years after they would have fought at 154, and disregard the one only two years before they fought at 154.

Even though the bigger the weight the better for Hearns, he only got a draw. So even though you would think that Hearns would do worse at 154 than, it would have been a massacre win for Hearns. Makes total sense.

And your love for Sugar Ray is DELUSIONAL

Herol Graham didn't have the chin to fight Hagler. No way he makes the distance. Leonard had a great chin and did take a few hard shots. Big difference in level of fighter. Plus, it is shocking how long Leonard was gone and to come back against one of the greatest of all time.... He was so relaxed.

Without the eye problems Ray Leonard would have been competitive with Tommy Hearns at 154 and Marvin Hagler at 160 in 1982/83. At 154 Leonard had beaten a seriously good fighter in Ayub Kalule so he did have previous at that weight. Whether he could have beaten these two at higher weights at their peak is debatable with Hearns and very doubtful with Hagler, but Ray was one of the fastest fighters in history with a serious chin, and he would have posed serious questions of Tommy and Marvin in this period.

dr_devious wrote:Without the eye problems Ray Leonard would have been competitive with Tommy Hearns at 154 and Marvin Hagler at 160 in 1982/83. At 154 Leonard had beaten a seriously good fighter in Ayub Kalule so he did have previous at that weight. Whether he could have beaten these two at higher weights at their peak is debatable with Hearns and very doubtful with Hagler, but Ray was one of the fastest fighters in history with a serious chin, and he would have posed serious questions of Tommy and Marvin in this period.

Spot on.

I'm not saying he would have beaten Hearns at 154 (although it wouldn't surprise me if he did), nor Hagler at 160 during 1982 or mythical 1983 without eye problems etc, but he would have been a very dangerous opponent for either.

Nobody is knocking out a still young & living Ray Leonard or beating him easily at any time.

Spot on Syntax

Ezzard wrote:Hagler was a better fighter...a clearly much better fighter...Herol Graham would accept that I'm sure... But at that time Hagler was missing a beat. He'd have been chasing Graham all night. Maybe he would have caught up with him. Maybe he wouldn't have. I doubt Hagler at that stage would have stopped him.

Graham isnt quite the master boxer revisionist history portrays.He never actually ever just danced away.His mistake in all his losses was he moved in too aggressively boxed too hard, he would be winning exchanges and rush in hard. Even an 87 hagler would make him pay for that.

87 hagler still had the measure of the mccallums,grahams and tates

elmersalsa wrote: I can't see him beat the great Mike McCallum @154 and above, neither a devastating puncher like Julian Jackson. That's too much for him.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Since he got knocked down by Kevin Howard (a flash knockdown in a fight that otherwise dominated) after a two year layoff, Leonard would certainly have no chance against Hagler. Hagler (who got knocked down by Juan Roldan), was obviously right that he would destroy the pretty boy. He sure proved that.

Really Hagler-Leonard could not have happened before 1985, since Leonard did not belong in the ring against him.The fight would not have been sanctioned. (Only the greats like Roldan, Tony Sibson, and Caveman Lee belonged in there at that time) However, Leonard somehow belonged in the ring with him after that by not fighting.

Hearns was not able to destroy Leonard at 147 or 164, but at 154 he obviously would. Hearns was frailish at 147 but a monster at 154. Leonard would be crushed any man that can win a decision over Luigi Minchillo at 154. Leonard would have been terrified of Julian Jackson. Leonard always afraid of a challenge, never would taken that fight.

Your style of sarcasm.in posting is most annoying

I was quite enjoying the relentless sarcasm.

Alps a great poster otherwise

I was just showing how ridiculous he was being. He actually said Leonard was no match for Hearns and Hagler, Leonard's chin was not as good as Luigi Minchillo, Hearns was frailish at 147 but a monster at 154, Leonard would be destroyed by Julian Jackson etc.

Thought it would be fun to put a little sarcasm into it. Sometimes it helps show how silly something is. We can all disagree on things and it would be boring if everyone agreed on everything. However, if someone is going to constantly say ridiculous things, they leave themselves open to sarcasm.