BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: So you are changing the rules again?
Before you said that Ross had not fought enough at welterweight. (Once again you didn't do your research)

However after after I showed that he had many more fights at welterweight than McLarnin and Mayweather combined, do you just say that you made a mistake and rate Ross higher?
Nope. You come up with something else.

You come back with "The great Jimmy McLarnin beat more and better opponents at WW. McLarnin at WW, beat 7 HOFs while Ross only beat McLarnin."

Well you are wrong yet again.
McLarnin did not beat 7 HOFs at welterweight.
He only beat two at welterweight. ( Ross and Young Corbett.) The rest were not welterweights.

Ross needs to be in the top 10. Maybe moved someone who never beat a really good welterweight (at the time of the fight) out. Gee, who could that be?

Are you going to admit that you are wrong again or are you going to continue to BS?

The great Jimmy McLarnin beat a real welterweight, Young Corbett III. I am saying that at welterweight, he beat 7 hall of famers. The fights were at WELTERWEIGHT, not lightweight.

The great Barney Ross nor McLarnin were real welterweight boxers, but, they fought each other 3 times at that weight class.

That is the same case with your boy Sugar Ray. The ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT he beat was the great Thomas Hearns. The greats of Roberto Duran and Wilfred Benitez were not real welterweight boxers. One was a lightweight and the other a Jr welterweight great. Shall we then put Ross over Leonard, too? He beat a guy twice that beat 7 hall of fame boxers at WW.

I think that my rating with Ross is good at that ranking of welterweight greats. He couldn't be a top ten WW, but, he is a top ten Jr. welterweight great, though. He did more at 140lbs.

Once again, you are wrong.
You are saying things that factually incorrect.

You said Ross did not have enough wins at welterweight. I pointed out he had more than Mayweather and McLarnin (each of whom you have higher than Ross) combined.
That is a fact. That is not my opinion.

Duran and Benitez were welterweights when Leonard beat them. They had been for some time. They each weighed well over 140 pounds (the Jr welterweight limit) and had been for several fights when Leonard beat them.
These are facts. Not my opinion.

McLarnin's wins over Mandell, Petrolle, Brouillard, Canzoneri were not against welterweights. All of them weighed well under 140 pounds when McLarnin beat them.
That is a fact. Not my opinion.

Mclarnin's only wins over Hall of Famers who were welterweights when McLarnin fought them were Ross (whom he beat once out of three) and Young Corbett II.

This is not my opinions.
These are facts.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Once again, you are wrong.
You are saying things that factually incorrect.

You said Ross did not have enough wins at welterweight. I pointed out he had more than Mayweather and McLarnin (each of whom you have higher than Ross) combined.
That is a fact. That is not my opinion.

Duran and Benitez were welterweights when Leonard beat them. They had been for some time. They each weighed well over 140 pounds (the Jr welterweight limit) and had been for several fights when Leonard beat them.
These are facts. Not my opinion.

McLarnin's wins over Mandell, Petrolle, Brouillard, Canzoneri were not against welterweights. All of them weighed well under 140 pounds when McLarnin beat them.
That is a fact. Not my opinion.

Mclarnin's only wins over Hall of Famers who were welterweights when McLarnin fought them were Ross (whom he beat once out of three) and Young Corbett II.

This is not my opinions.
These are facts.

Duran and Benitez were not real welterweight boxers...That is a fact, not an opinion

Mayweather and McLarnin shone better than Ross. Mayweather NEVER LOST A FIGHT AT 147. McLarnin beat more HOFs at 147. He beat 7 of them...That is a fact, not an opinion

McLarnin at ww, beat Billy Petrolle (fight #3), Benny Leonard, Young Corbett III, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri (fight#2), Lou Ambers, Sammy Mandell and Young Jack Thompson. Yes, I was wrong. He didn't beat 7 HOFs. He beat 8. Which makes it much better in my view. Those were welterweight fights, not lightweight bouts. Those are FACTS, not an opinion.
p

The ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT that the great Sugar Ray Leonard beat was the great Thomas Hearns. How about that folks?

So Leonard is top 2 or 3 at WW

dr_devious wrote:So Leonard is top 2 or 3 at WW

Check the greats Kid Gavilan and Emile Griffith

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Once again, you are wrong.
You are saying things that factually incorrect.

You said Ross did not have enough wins at welterweight. I pointed out he had more than Mayweather and McLarnin (each of whom you have higher than Ross) combined.
That is a fact. That is not my opinion.

Duran and Benitez were welterweights when Leonard beat them. They had been for some time. They each weighed well over 140 pounds (the Jr welterweight limit) and had been for several fights when Leonard beat them.
These are facts. Not my opinion.

McLarnin's wins over Mandell, Petrolle, Brouillard, Canzoneri were not against welterweights. All of them weighed well under 140 pounds when McLarnin beat them.
That is a fact. Not my opinion.


Mclarnin's only wins over Hall of Famers who were welterweights when McLarnin fought them were Ross (whom he beat once out of three) and Young Corbett II.

This is not my opinions.
These are facts.

Duran and Benitez were not real welterweight boxers...That is a fact, not an opinion



Mayweather and McLarnin shone better than Ross. Mayweather NEVER LOST A FIGHT AT 147. McLarnin beat more HOFs at 147. He beat 7 of them...That is a fact, not an opinion

McLarnin at ww, beat Billy Petrolle (fight #3), Benny Leonard, Young Corbett III, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri (fight#2), Lou Ambers, Sammy Mandell and Young Jack Thompson. Yes, I was wrong. He didn't beat 7 HOFs. He beat 8. Which makes it much better in my view. Those were welterweight fights, not lightweight bouts. Those are FACTS, not an opinion.
p

Once again you are factually wrong. You might as well be arguing that the sun did not come up yesterday.
This may be news to you, but the Jr welterweight limit is 140.

Duran weighed 145.5 vs Leonard. That is a welterweight. (Duran had been a welterweight for over 2 years)
Welterweight champion Wilfred Benitez weighed 144.5 vs Leonard. That is a welterweight. (Benitez had been a welterweght for more than 2 years.)

Petrolle weighed only 139 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr welter, not a welterweight.
Canzoneri weighed only 137 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr welter, not welterweight.
Ambers weighed 136.5 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr Welter, not a welterweight.
Mandell weighed 140 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr welter, not a welterweight.
Benny Leonard (36 years old) was normally a lightweight who weighed 150.5 vs McLarnin. Both McLarnin and Leonard were over the welterwight limit. So that doesn't count either
Young Jack Thompson is not in the Hall of Fame. Nice try.

McLarnin was a great fighter and a great welterweight. He simply did not beat 8 Hall of Famers at welterweight. He beat two. None of your arguing can change that fact.

dr_devious wrote:So Leonard is top 2 or 3 at WW

Leonard should be #2. He only lost once at the weight class, and that was to a great fighter. He had wins over three great fighters (who were great at the time of their fights).

If we compare that to Griffith, Armstrong, Gavilan, etc. they don't match it. Leonard resume at welterweight is superior to everyone but Robinson.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Once again, you are wrong.
You are saying things that factually incorrect.

You said Ross did not have enough wins at welterweight. I pointed out he had more than Mayweather and McLarnin (each of whom you have higher than Ross) combined.
That is a fact. That is not my opinion.

Duran and Benitez were welterweights when Leonard beat them. They had been for some time. They each weighed well over 140 pounds (the Jr welterweight limit) and had been for several fights when Leonard beat them.
These are facts. Not my opinion.

McLarnin's wins over Mandell, Petrolle, Brouillard, Canzoneri were not against welterweights. All of them weighed well under 140 pounds when McLarnin beat them.
That is a fact. Not my opinion.


Mclarnin's only wins over Hall of Famers who were welterweights when McLarnin fought them were Ross (whom he beat once out of three) and Young Corbett II.

This is not my opinions.
These are facts.

Duran and Benitez were not real welterweight boxers...That is a fact, not an opinion



Mayweather and McLarnin shone better than Ross. Mayweather NEVER LOST A FIGHT AT 147. McLarnin beat more HOFs at 147. He beat 7 of them...That is a fact, not an opinion

McLarnin at ww, beat Billy Petrolle (fight #3), Benny Leonard, Young Corbett III, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri (fight#2), Lou Ambers, Sammy Mandell and Young Jack Thompson. Yes, I was wrong. He didn't beat 7 HOFs. He beat 8. Which makes it much better in my view. Those were welterweight fights, not lightweight bouts. Those are FACTS, not an opinion.
p

Once again you are factually wrong. You might as well be arguing that the sun did not come up yesterday.
This may be news to you, but the Jr welterweight limit is 140.

Duran weighed 145.5 vs Leonard. That is a welterweight. (Duran had been a welterweight for over 2 years)
Welterweight champion Wilfred Benitez weighed 144.5 vs Leonard. That is a welterweight. (Benitez had been a welterweght for more than 2 years.)

Petrolle weighed only 139 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr welter, not a welterweight.
Canzoneri weighed only 137 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr welter, not welterweight.
Ambers weighed 136.5 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr Welter, not a welterweight.
Mandell weighed 140 vs McLarnin. That is a Jr welter, not a welterweight.
Benny Leonard (36 years old) was normally a lightweight who weighed 150.5 vs McLarnin. Both McLarnin and Leonard were over the welterwight limit. So that doesn't count either
Young Jack Thompson is not in the Hall of Fame. Nice try.

McLarnin was a great fighter and a great welterweight. He simply did not beat 8 Hall of Famers at welterweight. He beat two. None of your arguing can change that fact.

No, no, no. You are wrong again. Let's see the fights:

Lou Ambers vs McLarnin: McLarnin weigh 144lbs and Ambers 136. That is a welter fight.

Tony Canzineri vs McLarnin: McLarnin weigh in at 145. Canzoneri, 137...That's a WW fight.

Barney Ross vs McLarnin II: McLarnin weigh in 146. Ross 140...That was for the rematch of their title bout. That's a WW fight.

Young Corbett III vs McLarnin: World welterweight title...Another one in the books

Benny Leonard vs McLarnin: McLarnin 147, Leonard weigh in at 150. Jus a little bit over the welter limit. That's a WW fight. Not a middleweight fight.

Billy Petrolle vs McLarnin III: McLarnin weigh in 146. Petrolle 139. That was a welterweight fight.

Young Jack Thompson vs McLarnin: McLarnin 142, Thompson, 143. Another welterweight bout. Was Thompson welterweight champ more than once? I think yes!

McLarnin vs Sammy Mandell were both welterweight bouts. So McLarnin had 8 wins against hofs at WW. That's remarkable.


Duran and Benitez, just like McLarnin and others that we mentioned above, WERE NOT REAL WELTERWEIGHTS. Hearns was. So, the ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT GREAT THAT LEONARD BEAT WAS Tommy Hearns...That's it!

Ambling Alp II wrote:

dr_devious wrote:So Leonard is top 2 or 3 at WW

Leonard should be #2. He only lost once at the weight class, and that was to a great fighter. He had wins over three great fighters (who were great at the time of their fights).

If we compare that to Griffith, Armstrong, Gavilan, etc. they don't match it. Leonard resume at welterweight is superior to everyone but Robinson.

You must be DELUSIONAL. The greats like Emile Griffith and Kid Gavilan beat more quality and true welterweights than Sugar Ray Leonard ever did.

Had more longevity and had the title longer than Leonard

They even had more fights. Leonard is fine at #5

elmersalsa wrote:

dr_devious wrote:So Leonard is top 2 or 3 at WW

Check the greats Kid Gavilan and Emile Griffith

Sugar Ray Leonard would beat both these Great fighter's at any weight above Jr Welter

Agreed, though that is more debatable. What is less debatable is their records. Their records don't match up to Leonard's. Their best wins were not as great as Leonard's. They had more losses and lost to people a lot worse than Duran.

elmer doesn't like Leonard and there is not any more to it. He random points out things that favor his fighters (no matter how insignificant) and ignores more important data if it doesn't favor his guy. That's all he ever does.

elmer:

Most of the HOFers that were McLarnin's opponents were not welterweights.
They weighed under the Jr Welterweight limit.
It doesn't matter what McLarnin himself weighed. He did not beat welterweights.

elemer think about this. If a heavyweight beats a guy who weighs 158 pounds, it doesn't mean that the heavyweight beat a heavyweight. It means he beat a middleweight.

Same with McLarnin. In most of these cases he was beating fighters who were smaller than he was. He was a welterweight beating Jr welterweights.

Benitez and Duran were welterweights. They weighed well over the the welterweight limit.

You are wrong. Stop arguing against facts.
Stop being obnoxious.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

dr_devious wrote:So Leonard is top 2 or 3 at WW

Check the greats Kid Gavilan and Emile Griffith

Sugar Ray Leonard would beat both these Great fighter's at any weight above Jr Welter

Those greats would've beat the crap of Leonard, too! Have you seen Griffin or Gavilan fight?

Ambling Alp II wrote:Agreed, though that is more debatable. What is less debatable is their records. Their records don't match up to Leonard's. Their best wins were not as great as Leonard's. They had more losses and lost to people a lot worse than Duran.

elmer doesn't like Leonard and there is not any more to it. He random points out things that favor his fighters (no matter how insignificant) and ignores more important data if it doesn't favor his guy. That's all he ever does.

Sugar Ray is ok, at #5. All he beat was two non-welterweight greats, and stopped the great Hitman, which was the ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT HE BEAT.

Gavilan and Griffith beat MORE GREAT WELTERWEIGHTS, TRUE WELTERWEIGHT FIGHTERS and had more longevity and stayed longer as champions. More longevity, more career durabilty at WW, and more wins over top quality talent, by far.

Griffith nor Gavilan needed lightweights nor Jr welters to enhanced their records

Ambling Alp II wrote:elmer:

Most of the HOFers that were McLarnin's opponents were not welterweights.
They weighed under the Jr Welterweight limit.
It doesn't matter what McLarnin himself weighed. He did not beat welterweights.

elemer think about this. If a heavyweight beats a guy who weighs 158 pounds, it doesn't mean that the heavyweight beat a heavyweight. It means he beat a middleweight.

Same with McLarnin. In most of these cases he was beating fighters who were smaller than he was. He was a welterweight beating Jr welterweights.

Benitez and Duran were welterweights. They weighed well over the the welterweight limit.

You are wrong. Stop arguing against facts.
Stop being obnoxious.

Still, they were all welterweight fights, no matter how we look at it. McLarnin was campaigning at WW at the time he fought them. It's the same example with Duran and Benitez with Sugar Ray...The same thing.

No.

elmersalsa wrote:I have made a compilation of the top 25 welters in history. Debates are allowed and discussed in decent manner, without name calling, please. Once a person in this forum or debate calls someone else a name in derogatory fashion should be getting notifications from the moderators.

Here is my list:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Emile Griffith
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles
7. Barbados Joe Walcott
8. Carmen Basilio
9. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
12. Ted "Kid" Lewis
13. Jack Britton
14. Charley Burley
15. Jimmy McLarnin
16. Fritzie Zivic
17. Felix "Tito" Trinidad
18. Young Corbett III
19. Donald Curry
20. Pernell Whitaker
21. Mickey Walker
22. Barney Ross
23. Curtis Cokes
24. Roberto Duran
25. Holman Williams

Let's start the debate.

only thing that disturbs is that you have
floyd ahead of tommy and trinidad ahead
if pernell. i am not an expert and just "know"
the big names, so what i say is not really
we ll grounded, but in my view pernell
whitaker is a top ten welterweight.

man wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:I have made a compilation of the top 25 welters in history. Debates are allowed and discussed in decent manner, without name calling, please. Once a person in this forum or debate calls someone else a name in derogatory fashion should be getting notifications from the moderators.

Here is my list:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Emile Griffith
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles
7. Barbados Joe Walcott
8. Carmen Basilio
9. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
12. Ted "Kid" Lewis
13. Jack Britton
14. Charley Burley
15. Jimmy McLarnin
16. Fritzie Zivic
17. Felix "Tito" Trinidad
18. Young Corbett III
19. Donald Curry
20. Pernell Whitaker
21. Mickey Walker
22. Barney Ross
23. Curtis Cokes
24. Roberto Duran
25. Holman Williams

Let's start the debate.

only thing that disturbs is that you have
floyd ahead of tommy and trinidad ahead
if pernell. i am not an expert and just "know"
the big names, so what i say is not really
we ll grounded, but in my view pernell
whitaker is a top ten welterweight.

The great Floyd Mayweather, Jr never lost a fight at any class. At 147lbs, he did enough to be in the welterweight top ten. He didn't just win, he dominated every single and notorious fighter of that class. We can't argue with PERFECTION

I would like to put Billy Graham and Mysterious Billy Smith in there, but, it's hard, man. It's hard.

elmersalsa wrote:We can't argue with PERFECTION

yes we can. for starters: why is "PERFECTION"
not number one?

man wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:We can't argue with PERFECTION

yes we can. for starters: why is "PERFECTION"
not number one?

Not enough fights there like the other greats like Robinson, Leonard, Gavilan, Griffith and others. But his dominance at WW was spectacular. Never lost a fight there. Just like Robinson. The only difference is that Robinson had way much more bouts.

Also, remember, man. PBF at welterweight was considered the best fighter of his era. Also, he was champion for at least 5 years, never losing his crowns. Remarkable.

elmersalsa wrote:Also, remember, man. PBF at welterweight was considered the best fighter of his era. Also, he was champion for at least 5 years, never losing his crowns. Remarkable.

let's save ourselves five pages of back and
forth on floyd's record, shall we? i for one
have tommy hearns ahead of him at welter.
that's it.

Floyd never beat a great welterweight

Floyd higher than Hearns at Welter is a joke. Hearns loss to Leonard means a lot more than any of Floyd's wins at welter.