BoxRec

koolkc107 wrote:

Badhusker wrote:What 154 belt does Canelo have?

Correct, he has none.

Looked at the rankings wrong.

But if you think about it, that will make his argument not to fight at 160 stronger.

He can say he is trying to regain the belt in his alleged "true" weightclass.

The point is, he is going to have strong arguments and several precedents to force the fight at 155.

Great Comeback

MachoTime wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:

Badhusker wrote:What 154 belt does Canelo have?

Correct, he has none.

Looked at the rankings wrong.

But if you think about it, that will make his argument not to fight at 160 stronger.

He can say he is trying to regain the belt in his alleged "true" weightclass.

The point is, he is going to have strong arguments and several precedents to force the fight at 155.

Great Comeback

I know fanboys have a hard problem with reality.

Nothing to be done about that.

And the irony is not lost on me that only lil g "fanboy" that has had anything relevant to say in this thread
had a take so good I can no longer call him a fanboy...and I won't from here on in Caldo. You know what is up on this one.

And it is what I am trying to tell y'all now, so the blow wont be as bad.

The fight between Canelo and Cotto was a catchweight title fight sanctioned by the WBC.

Cotto-Geale was a WBC title catchweight.

Mayweather-Alvarez was WBC title catchweight.

Pacquiao-Margarito was a WBC title catchweight.

And there are many others.

Anyone thinking the WBC will strip Canelo automatically for saying 155 is kidding themselves.

Yeah it is possible, but everything points to them accepting Canelo's side of things
and putting the onus on lil g to put up or shut up.

You are right as far as a precedence being set regarding catch-weights for WBC title fights, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable or less pathetic. It is disrespectful to boxing, and to me it is a slap in the face to fans. There is 6lbs between 154 and 160. Would GGG drain to fight Floyd there for $8 or $10 million? Sure he would, but there is a huge difference between draining for a guy that rehydrates to 150 and is almost 40 than a guy that re-hydrates to 175 and is 25yrs old. It doesn't make enough dollars or "cents" (sense). GGG's lowest weight since being a pro was 158.5 four years ago. 155 is fine for non title fights, but for the unification of all belts at 160, not acceptable.

The people of Mexico will begin to lose respect for him if he doesn't fight GGG at 160, and will bet some already have. AND THE NEW catchweight king is.....Opie!

Badhusker wrote:You are right as far as a precedence being set regarding catch-weights for WBC title fights, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable or less pathetic. It is disrespectful to boxing, and to me it is a slap in the face to fans. There is 6lbs between 154 and 160. Would GGG drain to fight Floyd there for $8 or $10 million? Sure he would, but there is a huge difference between draining for a guy that rehydrates to 150 and is almost 40 than a guy that re-hydrates to 175 and is 25yrs old. It doesn't make enough dollars or "cents" (sense). GGG's lowest weight since being a pro was 158.5 four years ago. 155 is fine for non title fights, but for the unification of all belts at 160, not acceptable.

The people of Mexico will begin to lose respect for him if he doesn't fight GGG at 160, and will bet some already have. AND THE NEW catchweight king is.....Opie!

I think your right here in that as time goes on Canelo's fans might lose respect for him for not fighting GGG at 160. The Catchweight thing is B.S I agree.

Badhusker wrote:You are right as far as a precedence being set regarding catch-weights for WBC title fights, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable or less pathetic. It is disrespectful to boxing, and to me it is a slap in the face to fans. There is 6lbs between 154 and 160. Would GGG drain to fight Floyd there for $8 or $10 million? Sure he would, but there is a huge difference between draining for a guy that rehydrates to 150 and is almost 40 than a guy that re-hydrates to 175 and is 25yrs old. It doesn't make enough dollars or "cents" (sense). GGG's lowest weight since being a pro was 158.5 four years ago. 155 is fine for non title fights, but for the unification of all belts at 160, not acceptable.

The people of Mexico will begin to lose respect for him if he doesn't fight GGG at 160, and will bet some already have. AND THE NEW catchweight king is.....Opie!

If you were right maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation Husker.

Do I think they should fight at 155? Yes and no.

If it has to be the next fight, yes since Canelo has never fought a middleweight.

But, I would much prefer for them to schedule the fight for the end of 2016 and
have Canelo get a couple of fights in beforehand against true middleweights.

Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

And believe me, if the fight happened in May at 160, I would watch and be good with it.

As for your Floyd example, Golovkin wouldn't be getting 8 or 10 million from Floyd anyway.

Floyd guaranteed Cotto 8 million and Saul 5 million- no way Gennady gets more than 4.

And yes, I agree there is a difference between a 40 year old welterweight and a 25 year old
who rehydrates to lightweight and normally, I'd say you are right about Canelo's size and keep it moving.

But it was less than a year ago that Gennady was completely okay with the 155 lb catchweight and the only thing
that has changed is that they think they have more leverage with the WBC now so they can be hypocrites.

My contention is they are about to find out they do not have the leverage they think they have
that they are pissing up a rope if they think they can force anything from Canelo

PS- I don't see the people of Mexico losing respect for Canelo for asking Gennady to keep his word about the catchweight.
Afterall, these are some of the same fans who have continued to support JCC jr thru every step of his weight BS...

Golovkin shouldn't agree to anything below 158. He needs to stop Canelo, because Oscar always has a couple of corrupt pocket judges which will give Canelo victory in case he survives 12 rounds.

... or he could agree to 155 and still come at 160, pay fines and stop Canelo.

ikorolev wrote:Golovkin shouldn't agree to anything below 158. He needs to stop Canelo, because Oscar always has a couple of corrupt pocket judges which will give Canelo victory in case he survives 12 rounds.

... or he could agree to 155 and still come at 160, pay fines and stop Canelo.

Or, he should keep his word and come in at the 155 or 156 he said he would less than a year ago.

Did he say that he would come down for a title MW fight ? Never !

Besides, when dealing with cheaters, one shouldn't make concessions.

koolkc107 wrote:

Badhusker wrote:You are right as far as a precedence being set regarding catch-weights for WBC title fights, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable or less pathetic. It is disrespectful to boxing, and to me it is a slap in the face to fans. There is 6lbs between 154 and 160. Would GGG drain to fight Floyd there for $8 or $10 million? Sure he would, but there is a huge difference between draining for a guy that rehydrates to 150 and is almost 40 than a guy that re-hydrates to 175 and is 25yrs old. It doesn't make enough dollars or "cents" (sense). GGG's lowest weight since being a pro was 158.5 four years ago. 155 is fine for non title fights, but for the unification of all belts at 160, not acceptable.

The people of Mexico will begin to lose respect for him if he doesn't fight GGG at 160, and will bet some already have. AND THE NEW catchweight king is.....Opie!

If you were right maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation Husker.

Do I think they should fight at 155? Yes and no.

If it has to be the next fight, yes since Canelo has never fought a middleweight.

But, I would much prefer for them to schedule the fight for the end of 2016 and
have Canelo get a couple of fights in beforehand against true middleweights.

Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

And believe me, if the fight happened in May at 160, I would watch and be good with it.

As for your Floyd example, Golovkin wouldn't be getting 8 or 10 million from Floyd anyway.

Floyd guaranteed Cotto 8 million and Saul 5 million- no way Gennady gets more than 4.

And yes, I agree there is a difference between a 40 year old welterweight and a 25 year old
who rehydrates to lightweight and normally, I'd say you are right about Canelo's size and keep it moving.

But it was less than a year ago that Gennady was completely okay with the 155 lb catchweight and the only thing
that has changed is that they think they have more leverage with the WBC now so they can be hypocrites.

My contention is they are about to find out they do not have the leverage they think they have
that they are pissing up a rope if they think they can force anything from Canelo

PS- I don't see the people of Mexico losing respect for Canelo for asking Gennady to keep his word about the catchweight.
Afterall, these are some of the same fans who have continued to support JCC jr thru every step of his weight BS...

You are aware that the Mexican papers are saying Cotto was robbed...the Mexican press seem to have totally turned on "their" guy...

Anyone that thinks Cotto was robbed wasn't paying close attention to the fight.

just because the wbc will sanction a catch weight if both fighters agree doesn't
mean GGG is obliged in any way to agree to it, and the wbc doesn't enforce
catch weights, either. if they both make 160, canelo can't back out as far as
the wbc is concerned. catch weights are handled by weight penalties in contracts.
in other words if they agree on 158 and ggg or canelo shows up at 160, the
the boxer who came in over 158 pays the penalty stated in the contract to the other.
if they don't come to agreement, it goes to purse bids without any catch weight.
canelo needs to decide in a hurry whether he is willing to fight GGG or not. if not,
canelo has to vacate his title soon and GGG walks away with it without even having
to fight for it. obviously GGG would prefer to take it from canelo in the ring, but either
way his stated priority every time asked is taking all the belts. canelo's options are to
go back down and campaign at 154, or campaign at 160 where GGG has all the belts
after vacating to duck GGG (assuming canelo doesn't get to lee before GGG). eventually
canelo will not be able to avoid GGG and will not get the same deal to fight him that he
would get now. assuming GGG agrees to nothing canelo demands and canelo is the mandatory
at 160 at some point, the fight goes to purse bids and would be at 160 with GGG taking
lion's share of the revenue.

these are 2 of the purse bid split formulae:

http://www.wboboxing.com/regulations/
1.CHAMPIONSHIPS with an EXISTING CHAMPION ◦(A) In fights for the Title between the Champion and the Mandatory Challenger held in the country of origin, residence or nationality of the Champion, the Champion shall receive 75% of the purse and the Challenger shall receive the remaining 25%.
◦(B) In fights for the title held in any other country, the Champion shall receive 80% of the purse and the Challenger shall receive the remaining 20%.

http://wbcboxing.com/downloads/WBCRules ... ec2011.pdf
2.17 Division of Proceeds in a Purse Offer. The net purse offer (after deduction of all sanction
fees payable to the WBC hereunder) shall be divided as follows:
(a) 70% for the champion and 30% for the challenger in title bouts; and
(b) 50% to each contender in the case of vacant titles or elimination bouts

in other words, under the worst scenario for GGG, he agrees to nothing and it either goes to purse
bids and he gets 30% of the split or canelo vacates and he gets the title. worst case scenario for ggg.
eventually canelo will have no options at 154 or 160 but to fight GGG, and GGG agrees to absolutely
none of canelo's demands again and takes 70% of the purse (if the wbc even makes canelo mandatory
after vacating to avoid the same guy as his mandatory, not likely). that is worst case scenario for
GGG, which is a decent position to negotiate from.

sucracristo wrote:just because the wbc will sanction a catch weight if both fighters agree doesn't
mean GGG is obliged in any way to agree to it, and the wbc doesn't enforce
catch weights, either. if they both make 160, canelo can't back out as far as
the wbc is concerned. catch weights are handled by weight penalties in contracts.
in other words if they agree on 158 and ggg or canelo shows up at 160, the
the boxer who came in over 158 pays the penalty stated in the contract to the other.
if they don't come to agreement, it goes to purse bids without any catch weight.
canelo needs to decide in a hurry whether he is willing to fight GGG or not. if not,
canelo has to vacate his title soon and GGG walks away with it without even having
to fight for it. obviously GGG would prefer to take it from canelo in the ring, but either
way his stated priority every time asked is taking all the belts. canelo's options are to
go back down and campaign at 154, or campaign at 160 where GGG has all the belts
after vacating to duck GGG. eventually canelo will not be able to avoid GGG and will
not get the same deal to fight him that he would get now. assuming GGG agrees to
nothing canelo demands and canelo is the mandatory at 160 at some point, the fight
goes to purse bids and would be at 160 with GGG taking lion's share of the revenue.

these are 2 of the purse bid split formulae:

http://www.wboboxing.com/regulations/
1.CHAMPIONSHIPS with an EXISTING CHAMPION ◦(A) In fights for the Title between the Champion and the Mandatory Challenger held in the country of origin, residence or nationality of the Champion, the Champion shall receive 75% of the purse and the Challenger shall receive the remaining 25%.
◦(B) In fights for the title held in any other country, the Champion shall receive 80% of the purse and the Challenger shall receive the remaining 20%.

http://wbcboxing.com/downloads/WBCRules ... ec2011.pdf
2.17 Division of Proceeds in a Purse Offer. The net purse offer (after deduction of all sanction
fees payable to the WBC hereunder) shall be divided as follows:
(a) 70% for the champion and 30% for the challenger in title bouts; and
(b) 50% to each contender in the case of vacant titles or elimination bouts

in other words, under the worst scenario for GGG, he agrees to nothing and it either goes to purse
bids and he gets 30% of the split or canelo vacates and he gets the title. worst case scenario for ggg.
eventually canelo will have no options at 154 or 160 but to fight GGG and canelo agrees to absolutely
none of canelo's demands again and takes 70% of the purse (if the wbc even makes canelo mandatory
after vacating to avoid his mandatory, not likely.) that is worst case scenario for GGG

So, you wrote all this to show a possible path to lil g not having to comply, huh?

Here's a few things.

If the WBC does what I think they will and agrees to 155 for the defense, what makes you think they
won't do everything they can to make sure that what they sanctioned comes off the way they approved?

You are saying they are going to agree with Canelo but then let lil g not agree to the fight at 155 with no penalty?

I don't think so.

They will threaten to revoke his mandatory status (the same way they magically gave it) and that will be that.

And BTW, you act like it is Canelo that will be losing out financially if no fight happens.
What world do you live in?

Until he demonstrates that he is a PPV star, lil g will never be able to dictate anything to Canelo.

Saul just participated in probably the 2nd biggest PPV of the year.

Until Gennady finds someone to crack 300,000 buys with, he dictates zero to Canelo under ANY scenario.

But you saved your best for last.

Purse bids? Really?

What would compel Canelo to participate in one? Cuz he thinks Gennady is a swell guy and deserves the 80%?

LMAO!!!!!!

Didn't you just see Kovalev and Duva walk away from a purse bid process they themselves engineered?

Tell me, what huge penalty was assessed against them?

What financial windfall did they lose walking away from Adonis?

You are sticking your head in the sand and ignoring reality.

And all because you like lil g.

It's OK, I like him too.

But my admiration for what he does in the ring doesn't blind me to facts of his
career (not yet elite) or the hypocrisy of his claims (can fight in any weight yet has made sure to fight in only one).

I hate catchweights...but if it means a boxer actually living up to the hype he himself promised
I am totally with it.

koolkc107 wrote: So, you wrote all this to show a possible path to lil g not having to comply, huh?

Here's a few things.

If the WBC does what I think they will and agrees to 155 for the defense, what makes you think they
won't do everything they can to make sure that what they sanctioned comes off the way they approved?

You are saying they are going to agree with Canelo but then let lil g not agree to the fight at 155 with no penalty?

i don't want to get sucked into the troll vortex so this will probably be my only response
in the exchange. everything i said was fact. catch weights are purely contractual. the wbc
does not enforce them. the details of what happens if they don't agree on terms is just the
process. it goes to purse bids, and canelo signed papers that have the purse bid schedule
on them when he was allowed by GGG and the wbc to fight cotto for the title.
you don't seem to understand the process, especially how catch weights come about and
are enforced. your other questions and challenges are purely argumentative.
you argue before you even know what you're arguing about.
don't assume everyone else has the emotional attachments to these guys you do.
i'd like to see the fight but they both have options, as i stated, at least for the time being

sucracristo wrote:

koolkc107 wrote: So, you wrote all this to show a possible path to lil g not having to comply, huh?

Here's a few things.

If the WBC does what I think they will and agrees to 155 for the defense, what makes you think they
won't do everything they can to make sure that what they sanctioned comes off the way they approved?

You are saying they are going to agree with Canelo but then let lil g not agree to the fight at 155 with no penalty?

i don't want to get sucked into the troll vortex so this will probably be my only response
in the exchange. everything i said was fact. catch weights are purely contractual. the wbc
does not enforce them. the details of what happens if they don't agree on terms is just the
process. it goes to purse bids, and canelo signed papers that have the purse bid schedule
on them when he was allowed by GGG and the wbc to fight cotto for the title.
you don't seem to understand the process, especially how catch weights come about and
are enforced. your other questions and challenges are purely argumentative.
you argue before you even know what you're arguing about.
don't assume everyone else has the emotional attachments to these guys you do.
i'd like to see the fight but they both have options, as i stated, at least for the time being

When I see folks write something, have it blown out the water, then the very next post they say it is their last word on it...
well, that tells me they have no real reply to that which dismantled their first comments.

You verify this by simply trying to reiterate what came before while chalking up my destruction of your BS to me "not understanding"

BOL!!!!

I am sure Duva and Kovalev had that same language in what they attempted to engineer concerning Stevenson.

But they walked away when they saw the PBC would have probably won the bid.

So my questions and replies to you aren't trolling at all.

It is asking what is there that binds Canelo to that process?

What compels him to participate?

He is now what Floyd was and Pac still is.

A guy that can write his own ticket...pretty much anywhere and anyway he likes.

And you are talking about purse bids...SMH.

One of us truly doesn't understand...and it isn't me.

Exactly. WBC will not sign under 155. They will not object like in case with Cotto, but they will not bend their rules so badly to invent a new weight class. The only penalty Golovkin would have to pay is what would be stipulated in his contract with Canelo.

All I know is that we are talking about the WBC, the same sanctioning body that invented the Diamond belt back in '09.

Wishing is fine, just know your reality as well.

ikorolev wrote:Exactly. WBC will not sign under 155. They will not object like in case with Cotto, but they will not bend their rules so badly to invent a new weight class. The only penalty Golovkin would have to pay is what would be stipulated in his contract with Canelo.

depending on the penalty per pound, it might even be worth it for GGG just to sign
the contract with the penalty, pay the penalty, and weigh in at 160

What if.....GGG agreed to 155 with a rehydration clause of 10lbs? Canelo may be weaker than GGG fight night.

Badhusker wrote:What if.....GGG agreed to 155 with a rehydration clause of 10lbs? Canelo may be weaker than GGG fight night.

I would call that brilliant strategy by lil g...and one that would allow him to keep his word.

Badhusker wrote:What if.....GGG agreed to 155 with a rehydration clause of 10lbs? Canelo may be weaker than GGG fight night.

Canelo would come at 175 and pay the penalty

ikorolev wrote:

Badhusker wrote:What if.....GGG agreed to 155 with a rehydration clause of 10lbs? Canelo may be weaker than GGG fight night.

Canelo would come at 175 and pay the penalty

canelo has missed catch weights and paid the penalty before.
he missed the weights with floyd and hatton and i think others, and i thought floyd
missed his with marquez. as long as you make the division limit the official weigh in,
it is still going to be a title fight. i've never heard of the penalty being a million a pound.
i thought quillin had to pay lee a $125k out of a $500k purse or something like that
for not making middleweight, but that is about the division limit in a title fight,
which is different. i would imagine these guys would each make well over $10mil purses,
so even if it is some crazy $300k per pound penalty (floyd-marquez), it still might be
worth paying it and just weighing in at 160.

ikorolev wrote:Golovkin shouldn't agree to anything below 158. He needs to stop Canelo, because Oscar always has a couple of corrupt pocket judges which will give Canelo victory in case he survives 12 rounds.

... or he could agree to 155 and still come at 160, pay fines and stop Canelo.

People aren't realizing or just dont wanna accept Canelo is calling shots here.

If GGG doesn't wanna play ball then he can carry on and keep fighting stiffs and waste what little prime years he has left.

Or accept fights with Lara or Ward which GGG's people don't want.

Canelo is the shot caller here not GGG get that right folks.

GGG has already said he wants the belt, he doesn't care about who has it, all he has to do is say no to 155 and canelo has only 2 choices, fight him or drop the belt, it not that complicated, you guys are making up fantasys in your mind, canelo went into the cotto fight knowing if he won that GGG was his next MANDATORY defence, lieing about " not really being a MW" won't help, WBC was just embarrassed by cotto not paying sanctioning fees, I don't think they will embarrass themselves by not forcing the mandatory considering they commented on it a number of times, guys stop making something simple sound complicated

Pureist wrote:GGG has already said he wants the belt, he doesn't care about who has it, all he has to do is say no to 155 and canelo has only 2 choices, fight him or drop the belt, it not that complicated, you guys are making up fantasys in your mind, canelo went into the cotto fight knowing if he won that GGG was his next MANDATORY defence, lieing about " not really being a MW" won't help, WBC was just embarrassed by cotto not paying sanctioning fees, I don't think they will embarrass themselves by not forcing the mandatory considering they commented on it a number of times, guys stop making something simple sound complicated

So I take it you missed this article (link posted in the Canelo is No. 1 thread)

http://www.BS.com/wbc-prez-app ... der--98592

It hit a few hours after I started this thread...like friggin' prophesy.

Only I aint Dionne Warrick. I just figured with the WBC involved money was going to run this.

And unfortunately for lil g, he aint the money yet.

They are not going to strip Canelo.

And my guess is that if lil g tries to get bold he will find himself on the outside looking in.

They will strip his mandatory status faster than he can reject a fight with Andre Ward.

koolkc107 wrote: http://www.BS.com/wbc-prez-app ... der--98592

They are not going to strip Canelo.

read the article and that is not what it says, even implicitly.
sulaiman said explicitly that it is completely up to the promoters.
i'm sure that is what GB wants, and maybe that is what mauricio is repeating.
it is also what the announcers were saying immediately after the fight, that
they would both be fighting other people. i laughed a little when they said they
weren't worried about lawsuits in that article, considering that they had to declare
bankruptcy and wouldn't even exist anymore if it weren't for the grace of
roccigiani. the schedule for negotiations and purse bids is in the contracts,
and was officially announced and repeated many times since. perhaps GGG
will be willing to wait a little longer if he gets paid and gets a shot at the wbo in
the interim with an iron clad agreement canelo will fight him in the fall, with
money set aside to cover GGG if canelo backs out. when they specifically discussed
GGG fighting on the cinco de mayo card that made my ears perk up because that
would get GGG paid probably more than he has made before, satisfying one of the
requirements, and if andy lee got by saunders then GGG could lock him in on that card
and take the wbo as the co-main event, satisfying the second requirement, and then
canelo fighting another 154lber would help hype the fall fight and give canelo a payday
to set money aside to secure GGG. the idea that the wbc is going to tell GGG to screw
if he doesn't step aside is lunacy though. that article doesn't come close to saying that
and explicitly says it is totally up to GB and K2. maybe suliaman said it because he
thinks the deal is doable, which is a whole other thing.