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Chavez biggest fights were Whitaker and Oscar. You're such a clown. Lol

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Chavez biggest fights were Whitaker and Oscar. You're such a clown. Lol

That was in the 90s, not in the 80s

elmersalsa wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Chavez biggest fights were Whitaker and Oscar. You're such a clown. Lol

That was in the 90s, not in the 80s

I had to double check the dates and who JCC fought in the 80's. I'm getting older and some of the details pass me by.
But JCC did not have any career defining victories in the 80's
He faced 40 some bums and a half dozen or more guys making debuts. most of his wins in the 80's were against guys with losing records.

He became the huge star in the early 90's.

And King adopted his "bum run" to promote and exploit to bigger and better venues....ok...not all were bums, he probably fought who was put in front of him...so no bad on him, AND he was a magnificent fighter....but when I see this much acclaim, I always like to look closely just to "balance" the euphoria. And a bit like..(but nowhere near as happenstanceish) the "Grate" A.P......JCC's bum run, was exploited carefully and parlayed to legendary status. It also honed his skills, this I understand. So he did much to earn your accolades, and I'm really not attempting to disrespect. But #3 on your list just deserves a very serious review.

And just as was stated, in the 80's I'm not sure he deserves this distinction....if you're going to give him credit for 90's activity and place him in your 80's list, it gets confusing. And I'm probably just about as much a rumpswab for Pernell as you are for JCC....so it didn't set right with me to see his name there with Pernell listed on your also ran list. Because let's face it, Pernell "also ran" over JCC. Even if Don's influence held sway to "quell" the proper decision.

I see your view BoxBuzz. It's hard to think of JCC as #3 in the 80s. Maybe he didn't beat a top ten fighter of the decade. But, what he beat were good enough: Ruben Castillo, Mario Martinez, Juan LaPorte, Edwin "Chapo" Rosario, Roger Mayweather (twice), Jose Luis Ramirez, Rocky Lockridge and Rodolfo Aguilar among others. A good crop of fighters. Plus, he was 68-0 in the decade. That's something unheard of at that time, let alone in these times. Add 16-0 in world title bouts, plus winning 3 world titles in 3 different weight classes, is remarkable. And he did it quietly. Kind of. Very underrated in the 80s decade.

It could also be that our eyes were so into The Fab 4 in the 80s that there was no room for anybody else until the great Mike Tyson came along and took Chavez' spotlight. But, what a fighter this Chavez was.

I think Julio Cesar Chavez is one of the most overrated fighters ever honestly. People buy into the hype because of the gawdy numbers on his record, but when you look closer at his record you see he didn't beat a whole hell of a lot of particularly dangerous fighters, and lost to the best fighters he fought.

Don't get me wrong, he was a Very Good fighter, and was pretty damn fun to watch, but the way some make him out to be one of the All Time Greats of the sport. I just don't see an argument for it.

He's never been more overrated than in this thread. Chavez > hearns in the 80's is straight stand up comedy. The top 3 are Leonard, hearns and hagler.

No room for the great Jorge Paez elmer?

Hagler
SRL
Hearns
Sanchez
Tyson
Spinks
Holyfield
Duran
Nelson
Galaxy
McCallum
Chandler

No.

JCC came in the back door and at the other half of the 80s era. Very underrated like the great Mike McCallum.

It's not just who you beat. But also the level of excellence that guy had in the 80s. Some people in here make Julio seen like someone that fought a bunch of tomato cans. He fought the very best of his time and he outclassed them all that came in front of him. You could only fight the people of your time. What a great fighter he was. To me, he was very underrated in the 80s.

It's in the 90s where lots of people had an issue with him:
1. His late KO stoppage of Meldrick Taylor by a referee mistake.
2. His "draw" against the great Pernell Whitaker
3. His gift of recovering the WBC belt from Frankie Randall by technical decision in a fight that he was losing in my view.
4. Always had the privilege by the power of WBC President Jose Sulaiman, who was his country man in giving him gifts and opportunities to get his crown back after the Oscar DeLaHoya lashings

See, guys like Chavez that had so many breaks are hated and is understandable. He was sometimes the benefactor of gift decisions in the 90s. But, in the 80s? I give this all time great his due. 68-0 in a decade is very impressive, no matter how we look at it.

you'd rather look like an idiot than admit you're wrong.

If Chavez 68-0 makes him #3 in the 80's than Floyd truly is the goat.

elmersalsa wrote:JCC came in the back door and at the other half of the 80s era. Very underrated like the great Mike McCallum.

It's not just who you beat. But also the level of excellence that guy had in the 80s. Some people in here make Julio seen like someone that fought a bunch of tomato cans. He fought the very best of his time and he outclassed them all that came in front of him. You could only fight the people of your time. What a great fighter he was. To me, he was very underrated in the 80s.

It's in the 90s where lots of people had an issue with him:
1. His late KO stoppage of Meldrick Taylor by a referee mistake.
2. His "draw" against the great Pernell Whitaker
3. His gift of recovering the WBC belt from Frankie Randall by technical decision in a fight that he was losing in my view.
4. Always had the privilege by the power of WBC President Jose Sulaiman, who was his country man in giving him gifts and opportunities to get his crown back after the Oscar DeLaHoya lashings

See, guys like Chavez that had so many breaks are hated and is understandable. He was sometimes the benefactor of gift decisions in the 90s. But, in the 80s? I give this all time great his due. 68-0 in a decade is very impressive, no matter how we look at it.

I like this post, I was just about to post pretty much the same.

But I will add that I really have an issue with how Chavez behaved in the rematch with Randall. I thought he blatantly quit, knowing that the judges would help him to a technical win that he didn't deserve. Of course, he's not the first boxer to pull such a trick, but I just never quite saw him in the same light after that. I really did idolise him up to that point.
It might seem hypocritical to some, but I judge Chavez much more harshly on this than I do Duran for no mas. Duran always had an edge of unpredictability about him, and to me it was more of a quirky, 'f*ck you' gesture than an attempt at cheating.

elmersalsa wrote: It's not just who you beat. But also the level of excellence that guy had in the 80s. Some people in here make Julio seen like someone that fought a bunch of tomato cans. He fought the very best of his time and he outclassed them all that came in front of him. You could only fight the people of your time. What a great fighter he was. To me, he was very underrated in the 80s.

There are about 5 notable wins out of those 68. Rosario, shopworn ramirez, mayweather x2, laporte and lockridge. Good wins but you could make a case for Kalambay being ahead of him with wins over Graham, McCallum, Drayton, Barkley during that decade. I don't know if he'd crack my top 20.
It is who you beat. If Duran only had SRL on his 80's resume, I'd still take him over Chavez. It's insane to rank him at 3.

Jaywheel wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: It's not just who you beat. But also the level of excellence that guy had in the 80s. Some people in here make Julio seen like someone that fought a bunch of tomato cans. He fought the very best of his time and he outclassed them all that came in front of him. You could only fight the people of your time. What a great fighter he was. To me, he was very underrated in the 80s.

There are about 5 notable wins out of those 68. Rosario, shopworn ramirez, mayweather x2, laporte and lockridge. Good wins but you could make a case for Kalambay being ahead of him with wins over Graham, McCallum, Drayton, Barkley during that decade. I don't know if he'd crack my top 20.
It is who you beat. If Duran only had SRL on his 80's resume, I'd still take him over Chavez. It's insane to rank him at 3.

Pound per pound, I rate Manos de Piedra above The Culiacan Lion. But, in the 80s ? Chavez was flawless. Duran was the best of the 70s in my book.

Sumbu Kalambay of Congo/Zaire via Italy could be one of the most underrated boxers of the 80s, and also in the all time middleweight rankings. But, his knockout loss against Michael Nunn almost shattered his accomplishments.

the Chavez win over Edwin "Chapo" Rosario could not be ignored. He even went up in weight to challenge him. It was one of the finest performances of the 80s

witherspoon wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:JCC came in the back door and at the other half of the 80s era. Very underrated like the great Mike McCallum.

It's not just who you beat. But also the level of excellence that guy had in the 80s. Some people in here make Julio seen like someone that fought a bunch of tomato cans. He fought the very best of his time and he outclassed them all that came in front of him. You could only fight the people of your time. What a great fighter he was. To me, he was very underrated in the 80s.

It's in the 90s where lots of people had an issue with him:
1. His late KO stoppage of Meldrick Taylor by a referee mistake.
2. His "draw" against the great Pernell Whitaker
3. His gift of recovering the WBC belt from Frankie Randall by technical decision in a fight that he was losing in my view.
4. Always had the privilege by the power of WBC President Jose Sulaiman, who was his country man in giving him gifts and opportunities to get his crown back after the Oscar DeLaHoya lashings

See, guys like Chavez that had so many breaks are hated and is understandable. He was sometimes the benefactor of gift decisions in the 90s. But, in the 80s? I give this all time great his due. 68-0 in a decade is very impressive, no matter how we look at it.

I like this post, I was just about to post pretty much the same.

But I will add that I really have an issue with how Chavez behaved in the rematch with Randall. I thought he blatantly quit, knowing that the judges would help him to a technical win that he didn't deserve. Of course, he's not the first boxer to pull such a trick, but I just never quite saw him in the same light after that. I really did idolise him up to that point.
It might seem hypocritical to some, but I judge Chavez much more harshly on this than I do Duran for no mas. Duran always had an edge of unpredictability about him, and to me it was more of a quirky, 'f*ck you' gesture than an attempt at cheating.

I agree in everything you said witherspoon. Chavez seem to me that he quit against Frankie Randall. After JCC beat Meldrick Taylor in that terrific contest in the 90s decade, Chavez never again achieved that level of greatness win, lose or draw. He was in the 90s somehow of protected by promoter Don King and WBC president Jose Sulaiman of Mexico, which happens to be his country man.

Chavez got stucked in the 140lbs division, without risking his unblemished record. That's what most people remember about him in the 90s. Now, in the 90s, he was OVERRATED. In the 80s? He was one of the finest ever in one of boxing's most talented decades.

Elmer....I hear ya knockin'......but you don't come in.

BoxBuzz wrote:Elmer....I hear ya knockin'......but you don't come in.

What's the problem with the great Julio Cesar Chavez, Buzz? He was one of the finest of the 80s decade.

No the general concept is understood, but your expressed foundation supporting your thesis is Swiss Cheese-ish.

My rating criteria has always been based on not just accomplishments and abilities but...the absolute best on their best day matched in a head to head against their contempories on their absolute best day .

Therefore on that criteria my list may look very different and I also include Donald Curry in my top ten despite his later demise.I also considered Duran in there on that basis of the guy who beat Srl and pushed Hagler but he didnt make the cut.

My 1980s top ten

1. Mike Tyson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Thomas Hearns
5. Michael Spinks
6. Aaron Pryor
7. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Jeff Fenech
9. Donald Curry
10. Evander Holyfield

And also rans
11.Larry Holmes
12.Salvador Sanchez
13.Michael Nunn
14 Sumbu Kalambay
15 Mike Mccallum

Sanchez doesn't cut it but Pryor does?

In detail, I will try to explain why some honorary mentions in my view didn't make the top ten.

Also, why I rated the great Mike Tyson at #2 and the other greats.