BoxRec

elmersalsa wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: A case should be made to the great Henry Armstrong. To me, the greatest fighter, pound per pound, of all-time.

My top 5:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep

Duran should be lower. He does not come close to the achievements of Ezzard Charles for instance.

No no no. The Hands of Stone is right where he at. In the top 5 by anyone's standards

Not by my standards I'm afraid. Losses to DeJesus, Laing, Benitez, Hearns, quitting vs Leonard around his prime years knock him down a bit. Bottom of the top ten at best.

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Tomasino wrote:
Duran should be lower. He does not come close to the achievements of Ezzard Charles for instance.

No no no. The Hands of Stone is right where he at. In the top 5 by anyone's standards

Not by my standards I'm afraid. Losses to DeJesus, Laing, Benitez, Hearns, quitting vs Leonard around his prime years knock him down a bit. Bottom of the top ten at best.

How about Pep?

Pep's resume is clearly not as good as Robinson's. However, you can make a good argument for him being top 10.

Robinson, Greb, Langford, Charles, Ali, R. Leonard, and Armstrong, have rock solid cases.
Hard to make a good argument against Louis. That is 8 guys right there.

Goes down to Pep, Duran, Monzon, Moore, and Benny Leonard for the last two spots. Of course there are several guys right behind the; Gans, Saddler, Tunney, Ross etc.

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Tomasino wrote:
Duran should be lower. He does not come close to the achievements of Ezzard Charles for instance.

No no no. The Hands of Stone is right where he at. In the top 5 by anyone's standards

Not by my standards I'm afraid. Losses to DeJesus, Laing, Benitez, Hearns, quitting vs Leonard around his prime years knock him down a bit. Bottom of the top ten at best.

That's your view. And all that what you have said was erased when he won the middleweight crown being washed up. Top 5 in my view
Thank you

Cutman Scabbers wrote:Can you make a convincing case for anyone else being better than SRR?

I rate Greb and Langford ahead of him. Nothing I'll argue about, but Sam beat all time greats from Lightweight up to heavyweight and Greb has the same pedigree as the #1 in a weight class and top 10 in another, along with success at Heavyweight.

As far as I'm concerned the top 5 all time is pretty set between those 3, Armstrong and Charles.

FrozenMixedVegtables wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Pep's resume is clearly not as good as Robinson's. However, you can make a good argument for him being top 10.

Robinson, Greb, Langford, Charles, Ali, R. Leonard, and Armstrong, have rock solid cases.
Hard to make a good argument against Louis. That is 8 guys right there.

Goes down to Pep, Duran, Monzon, Moore, and Benny Leonard for the last two spots. Of course there are several guys right behind the; Gans, Saddler, Tunney, Ross etc.

I wouldn't have Ray greater than Roberto and Monzon is never a top ten.

Not even in your wildest dreams the great Sugar Ray Leonard is top 10 ATG. He barely a top 5 welterweight and now to think he's top ten ATG is a FALLACY. SIMPLE AS THAT.

In my view, top 5 ever:
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep

Boxing's Mount Rushmore:
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson

Historical Impact, Greatest Boxing Super Champions:
Muhammad Ali
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson

elmersalsa wrote:In my view, top 5 ever:
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep

Boxing's Mount Rushmore:
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson

Historical Impact, Greatest Boxing Super Champions:
Muhammad Ali
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson

No Elmer, Roberto is a quitter although still a great fighter and top 3 Lightweight but having thought more about it, Duran is barely top 15. Also, please explain the historical impact Duran had...I'm guessing you mean the No Mas fight?
Thank you.

I don't think anyone had a greater historical impact than Jack Dempsey.

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:In my view, top 5 ever:
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep

Boxing's Mount Rushmore:
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson

Historical Impact, Greatest Boxing Super Champions:
Muhammad Ali
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson

No Elmer, Roberto is a quitter although still a great fighter and top 3 Lightweight but having thought more about it, Duran is barely top 15. Also, please explain the historical impact Duran had...I'm guessing you mean the No Mas fight?
Thank you.

You can call The Hands of Stone a quitter all you want to. You could even mock me when the great Thomas Hearns decapitated him. That's fine.

But, to say that the guy is barely top 15? You might not have a clue, you hate Duran or you gotta be biased.

Not that you asked me, but it's slow as hell at work.

Greb
Langford
Robinson
Armstrong
Charles
Duran
B. Leonard
Moore
Gavilan
Canzoneri

Tomasino wrote:No Elmer, Roberto is a quitter although still a great fighter and top 3 Lightweight but having thought more about it, Duran is barely top 15. Also, please explain the historical impact Duran had...I'm guessing you mean the No Mas fight?
Thank you.

You're a tough critic! One bad night disqualifies all that great work Duran did? In the fight immediately previous he hammered a prime Sugar Ray Leonard. Sugar Ray Leonard! That has to be one of the 20th century's most coveted scalps.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Tomasino wrote:No Elmer, Roberto is a quitter although still a great fighter and top 3 Lightweight but having thought more about it, Duran is barely top 15. Also, please explain the historical impact Duran had...I'm guessing you mean the No Mas fight?
Thank you.

You're a tough critic! One bad night disqualifies all that great work Duran did? In the fight immediately previous he hammered a prime Sugar Ray Leonard. Sugar Ray Leonard! That has to be one of the 20th century's most coveted scalps.

He's not a tough critic, he's a fool.

FrozenMixedVegtables wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:In my view, top 5 ever:
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep

Boxing's Mount Rushmore:
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson

Historical Impact, Greatest Boxing Super Champions:
Muhammad Ali
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Joe Louis
Sugar Ray Robinson

No Elmer, Roberto is a quitter although still a great fighter and top 3 Lightweight but having thought more about it, Duran is barely top 15. Also, please explain the historical impact Duran had...I'm guessing you mean the No Mas fight?
Thank you.

Durans a top ten with ease. What's your top ten?

In the most objective way, but, all lists, including The Ring Magazine, are subjective.
My list is, in my view:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Floyd Mayweather, Jr......Give the guy credit and his due. The guy was the best for a decade and a half!
8. Ezzard Charles
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Louis

Where are Floyd's heroic wins over great fighters in the prime of their life, Elmer?

He has no place in any all-time top 10, given his career choices and all the questions he left behind.

Floyd is comparable to pep. I bet he'd make my top 20-25.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Floyd is comparable to pep. I bet he'd make my top 20-25.

Where do you rank Holyfield?

Boxing Writer wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Floyd is comparable to pep. I bet he'd make my top 20-25.

Where do you rank Holyfield?

25-40 or so

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Floyd is comparable to pep. I bet he'd make my top 20-25.

Where do you rank Holyfield?

25-40 or so

What are the great Floyd wins, Saad? We generally agree on most things, but I just don't see the question answering wins & performances in Floyd's career.

I like the OP's intentions of this thread,its intertesting,ive seen and read a lot about the old time guys but still dont know enough to make a sound judgement

Tuan_Jim wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote: Where do you rank Holyfield?

25-40 or so

What are the great Floyd wins, Saad? We generally agree on most things, but I just don't see the question answering wins & performances in Floyd's career.

Corrales, Hernandez, Castillo. Alvarez, Manny, etc..you hate him, not a fan either, it clouds your judgment. Dude fought the best in the world for a decade and a half, had two close fights.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: 25-40 or so

What are the great Floyd wins, Saad? We generally agree on most things, but I just don't see the question answering wins & performances in Floyd's career.

Corrales, Hernandez, Castillo. Alvarez, Manny, etc..you hate him, not a fan either, it clouds your judgment. Dude fought the best in the world for a decade and a half, had two close fights.

I've said this many times, I can't stand Mayweather but the fact remains, he's one of the greatest boxers of all time and some of these threads showing decent champs of the past beating him are crazy. He'd be dominant in any era and I'd only take the best of the past to beat him and even then floyd always has a chance. He never looks like losing really. Like Saad said 2 close fights in like a 15 year spell. His record is up there. Both Floyd and manny are both p4p all time greats - top 10/20.

Ezzard wrote:

FrozenMixedVegtables wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Gans, Saddler, Moore, Tunney...

This is why I don't do top ten ATG lists. Apart from the top 3 it gets too interchangeable. I've not really got the historical knowledge to formally a solid one. I'll leave that for the historians.

Hey Frozen, in the end people seem to pick who they like then reverse engineer their reasons.

I gave up criticising unless someone is so way off they need help.

Sadly, this often the case. People make a big deal about anything positive at all regarding someone they like. However, they don't give credit to someone they don't like who did something similar.
Excuses are made for favoirte fighters that would not be made for other fighters in similar situations.

handsofstone wrote:I like the OP's intentions of this thread,its intertesting,ive seen and read a lot about the old time guys but still dont know enough to make a sound judgement

The way your getting through the classic fights you'll be making 'definitive' all time lists in no time

FrozenMixedVegtables wrote:

cfang wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Corrales, Hernandez, Castillo. Alvarez, Manny, etc..you hate him, not a fan either, it clouds your judgment. Dude fought the best in the world for a decade and a half, had two close fights.

I've said this many times, I can't stand Mayweather but the fact remains, he's one of the greatest boxers of all time and some of these threads showing decent champs of the past beating him are crazy. He'd be dominant in any era and I'd only take the best of the past to beat him and even then floyd always has a chance. He never looks like losing really. Like Saad said 2 close fights in like a 15 year spell. His record is up there. Both Floyd and manny are both p4p all time greats - top 10/20.

Boxing is historically rich mate, more so than you know. Floyd and Manny are the boxers of our era so naturally we overrate them. In reality those two are but the dust on which the true greats walk and they will be placed accordingly by historians. Top 30 at best.

Excuse me? 'more so than I know'. I post a lot on this board and I know more about the history of boxing than anyone I know and I know as much as most of the guys who post here - bar one or two who are clearly some of the world's best boxing historians. Don't presume just cos I rate Manny and Floyd that I don't now about all the guys that came before them because I do.