BoxRec

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Big difference in boxing from these other sport's people are talking about regarding pro's competing against amateur's is that we will have young competitor's getting their heads punched off by seasoned fighter's[monster's] like GGG/Kovalev just to name two, Some of these kid's will get killed.

I agree, to compare it to Tennis or Basketball is absurd.
Also, the Olympics is a vital stepping stone for young amateurs who are looking to make a bit of a name for themselves prior to turning pro.
I'm not entirely convinced this will happen anyway, not sure how many pros will want to take part in an unpaid tournament rather than a pro fight.

keirw wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Big difference in boxing from these other sport's people are talking about regarding pro's competing against amateur's is that we will have young competitor's getting their heads punched off by seasoned fighter's[monster's] like GGG/Kovalev just to name two, Some of these kid's will get killed.

I agree, to compare it to Tennis or Basketball is absurd.
Also, the Olympics is a vital stepping stone for young amateurs who are looking to make a bit of a name for themselves prior to turning pro.
I'm not entirely convinced this will happen anyway, not sure how many pros will want to take part in an unpaid tournament rather than a pro fight.

in order to qualify for the olympics you have to make your national team and then either
compete in the worlds or your regional tournament, and the refs are usually more strict
in the amateurs so a lot of pros would get dq's quickly for doing what they normally do.
i'm not so sure the olympic elites (who are already pros) would get more mauled by
"seasoned pros" over 5 rounds or whatever than they would by other elite olympians.
also, pro boxing is not monetized like big league sports is. top big league athletes have
sponsors that pay them more than they make competing, and that is why they show up
for the olympics. i don't see lots of elite pros showing up to the olympics trying to win
medals for free, and i don't see the sponsorship contracts in boxing that lebron, federer,
stamkos, soccer players, and even the sports like swimming, track and field, gymnastics,
swimming where the olympics is their biggest stage. most elite olympian boxers have
had their national committees involved in their training and competition whereas pros
have managers and promoters watching over them. pros just aren't geared toward
competing for medals for no pay and i don't see a lot of them that can beat current
elite olympians (already pros) at their own game who train inside that system under
their national committees. the WSB and APB was licensed pro boxing with the prize
money and salaries higher than those guys probably could have earned as pros,
so we would most likely be taking about journeyman pros trying to fight for medals
for no money against the current elite international level pros already groomed and
well paid to fight for medals.

What would a professional boxer have to do to qualify? Surely a 0-7 pro boxer can't compete in it (I wouldn't think), so what is the criteria?

Would it be on HBO, Showtime, PBC? Would those with other networks allow them to compete? Would anyone making decent money in the pros want to? Would Canelo rather fight once for 10-15m or several times for a medal?

Still think the current Cuban amateur team beats most pros over 3 rounds.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Big difference in boxing from these other sport's people are talking about regarding pro's competing against amateur's is that we will have young competitor's getting their heads punched off by seasoned fighter's[monster's] like GGG/Kovalev just to name two, Some of these kid's will get killed.

It is madness.

The difference if fitness levels would make it dangerous.

Most top pro's could fight literally flat out for the duration of an Olympic bout, there'd be some terrible beatings.

This seems very poorly thought out.

PredatorHayds wrote:Still think the current Cuban amateur team beats most pros over 3 rounds.

elite olympians currently fight in the AIBA pro league, WSB, fighting 5 3-minute rounds,
against other elites who are licensed pros on pro cards sanctioned by commissions
staged by licensed pro promoters. read the original post and quote from aiba president.
they are pros. this is much higher level of competition than probably 80% of
pro boxing, and better paid. i doubt any pros outside the aiba who would be interested
in fighting for medals will be much better.

Can't say this interests me, bad for the sport and I'd rather see 12 rounds than 3. Luckily, pros don't fight for free. None of the big names would do it.

First, I don't think many top pros will be interested in fighting at the Olympics considering they will have to halt their pro career for six months or so when they could be offered an important fight instead. Second, I doubt promoters would let the pro boxers risk losing in a qualifier for free, etc.

For those who think top "amateur" boxers would be slaughtered by seasoned pros I would say you don't know much about olympic-style boxing.

In China they did an experiment recently with 8 pro boxers against 8 APB boxers (who are still "amateur") with the APB boxers winning all 8 bouts !! In the main event APB world champion Lu Bin (who is going to the Olympics) easily beat WBC No 3 and former WBC world Champ Xiong Zhao Zhong by unan decision.

http://www.asianboxing.info/asian-news/ ... cctv-title

The bouts were with APB rules with the judges and referees being 50-50 from both camps.

And there was no slaughter .

locoxelbox wrote:8 APB boxers (who are still "amateur")

look up what apb stands for:
a = aiba; p = pro; b = boxing.
they are licensed professionals. they are eligible for olympics but they are pros.
wsb and apb are professional boxers. the elite boxers at the olympics are already
well paid professionals. this not just in the technical sense. they have pro licenses
and fight on cards staged by licensed promoters as professional cards with pro
referees and judges. despite boxrec's refusal to recognize them as such, go back
to the OP and read the quote from the AIBA president. he says WSB and APB are
professionals because they are professionals in every sense and not amateurs in
any sense. they are international level professional boxers who fight 5 pro rounders
against other international pros under the aiba banner. there were pros in the past
2 olympics already.

Now that WSB and APB fighters can compete at the Olympics, and WSB is a product sold by AIBA. It seems a natural step to allow other qualifying professionals to compete otherwise AIBA could be deemed to acting in an anti-competitive manner.

california state athletic commission fightfax report for 2013 WSB card
http://www.dca.ca.gov/csac/events/resul ... 130131.pdf
i could post these for every wsb and apb card in the usa, canada, mexico, and lots
of other countries. look up when these fighters received their pro licenses in the
states where these wsb and apb teams compete. they have been licensed pros
for years. look at the names of the refs. pro refs. look at the names of the judges.
pro judges. look at the licenses of the promoters. after the olympics and WSB,
lomachenko lost a split decision to salido in his 2nd fight for the wbo title.
if 2016 GGG theoretically decided he wanted to pause his prize fighting career
to fight 2004 GGG for a medal over 3 rounds, how bad a mauling would it be?
i don't think it would be as bad as people are making it out to be. WSB and APB
fighters would rip apart 80% of pros, and the pros that theoretically could beat
them probably aren't going to pause their careers to fight them for a medal,
when the WSB and APB guys are already getting paid salaries. could you imagine
floyd's reaction to that prospect?
"ok, let me get this straight. you want me to go back to fighting a few rounds every
other day over a week or so for a medal, something i did as a kid, basically for free,
against licensed international level pros paid a salary to do that, when i normally make
like $10mil to fight?"

I don't believe that pro boxers should be allowed to compete at the Olympics, it stunts the development of the amateur fighters.

sucracristo wrote:california state athletic commission fightfax report for 2013 WSB card
http://www.dca.ca.gov/csac/events/resul ... 130131.pdf
i could post these for every wsb and apb card in the usa, canada, mexico, and lots
of other countries.

However, this slipped past many as they don't understand the relevance of Fightfax and only rely on Boxrec.
This looks like a broadening of the eligibility criteria for pros by AIBA, which will put it on the radar of more fight fans.

ttornado wrote:

sucracristo wrote:california state athletic commission fightfax report for 2013 WSB card
http://www.dca.ca.gov/csac/events/resul ... 130131.pdf
i could post these for every wsb and apb card in the usa, canada, mexico, and lots
of other countries.

However, this slipped past many as they don't understand the relevance of Fightfax and only rely on Boxrec.
This looks like a broadening of the eligibility criteria for pros by AIBA, which will put it on the radar of more fight fans.

california state athletic commission would be the operative phrase, here.
as in, try to stage these events without pro licenses and you wind up in
jail. that kind of removes the philosophical debate. it's like arguing
whether someone is an amateur electrician or physician or mechanic.
the handcuffs on your way into the back of the squad car will help
you figure that part out if you want to prove to yourself whether they
are amateurs by staging them as amateur events. fightfax doesn't
even enter the conversation. fightfax is just a record of the licensed
event.

sucracristo wrote: california state athletic commission would be the operative phrase, here.
as in, try to stage these events without pro licenses and you wind up in
jail. that kind of removes the philosophical debate. it's like arguing
whether someone is an amateur electrician or physician or mechanic.
the handcuffs on your way into the back of the squad car will help
you figure that part out if you want to prove to yourself whether they
are amateurs by staging them as amateur events. fightfax doesn't
even enter the conversation. fightfax is just a record of the licensed
event.

But the Fightfax record is the difference between the pro and amateur bouts that both come under the jurisdiction of the CSAC;

18642. The commission may license professional and amateur boxers,
professional and amateur martial arts fighters, and booking agents,
managers of professional boxers and professional martial arts
fighters, trainers, chief seconds, and seconds of each.
No person shall participate in any contest or serve in the
capacity of a booking agent, manager, trainer, or second, unless he
or she has been licensed for that purpose by the commission.

ttornado wrote:Now that WSB and APB fighters can compete at the Olympics, and WSB is a product sold by AIBA. It seems a natural step to allow other qualifying professionals to compete otherwise AIBA could be deemed to acting in an anti-competitive manner.

I'd not even considered this

The WSB is the thin edge of the wedge.

ttornado wrote: But the Fightfax record is the difference between the pro and amateur bouts that both come under the jurisdiction of the CSAC;

nope, that's backwards. fightfax records fights of licensed professionals.
when you apply for a pro boxing license and sign on the dotted line, the
commission reviews your application and approves or denies it. after you
are licensed, you apply for a federal ID from the association of boxing
commissions. after you have a federal ID, you get entered into fightfax.
even if you have fought before, the commission looks up your license using
the ABC federal ID, and only secondarily will look at your fightfax record.
the statutes are pretty clear as to who is a professional and who isn't.
it's not that complex. people want it to make out to be a philosophical gray
area. i always say, ok then stage a boxing card yourself without the licenses
and see what happens. gray area gone.

the WSB franchise boxers in florida, for example, signed pro applications with
this at the bottom:

"I have verified the answers to all questions on both sides of this application and do attest that answers given here are true and correct to the best of my knowledge. I understand that if, for whatever reason, any item on either side of this form is not answered or is left blank, it will be presumed that the item that was not answered or was left blank is not applicable or is answered in the negative, specifically “no” or “none”. I understand that if the commission determines that I have knowingly made or implied any false statements, this application for license will be denied or if issued, the license will be revoked. Further, the State of Florida may prosecute me and the entity named as the applicant for this license for a second-degree misdemeanor and/or fine me and the entity named as the applicant for this license pursuant to S. 837.06, Florida Statutes.
I understand that copies of Chapter 548, Florida Statutes, and Chapter 61K1-3, Florida Administrative Code are available by writing to the Florida State Boxing Commission, 1940 N. Monroe Street, Tallahassee, FL 32399-1016 or obtaining a copy on the Commission’s web site.
I understand that this license, if approved, will expire on December 31 of the year in which it is effective. Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have read the foregoing document and that the facts stated in it are true."

does that sound like a gray area? if you signed that are you still an amateur?

sucracristo wrote:

ttornado wrote: But the Fightfax record is the difference between the pro and amateur bouts that both come under the jurisdiction of the CSAC;

nope, that's backwards. fightfax records fights of licensed professionals.
...
does that sound like a gray area? if you signed that are you still an amateur?

I'm saying that professional boxers are registered with fightfax, you agree with this but also call it backwards?

What I'm saying, is APB and WSB are pro fighters, AIBA is now widening the scope of entry to Olympics to include other pro fighters.

ttornado wrote:

sucracristo wrote:

ttornado wrote: But the Fightfax record is the difference between the pro and amateur bouts that both come under the jurisdiction of the CSAC;

nope, that's backwards. fightfax records fights of licensed professionals.
...
does that sound like a gray area? if you signed that are you still an amateur?

I'm saying that professional boxers are registered with fightfax, you agree with this but also call it backwards?

What I'm saying, is APB and WSB are pro fighters, AIBA is now widening the scope of entry to Olympics to include other pro fighters.

"But the Fightfax record is the difference between the pro and amateur bouts"
fightfax is the recordkeeper used by the ABC, but fighfax is not the thing that defines anyone
as amateur or pro. fightfax is not a license. the state commission licenses you, the ABC then
gives you a federal ID after you apply for that, and when the commissions post the results
of sanctioned events they send them to fightfax who keeps a national record.
it wasn't you who i initially replied to with regard to WSB and APB being pros.
that was someone else. you are right that AIBA forming a monopoly and only allowing
the pros that they lock into contracts and pimp out is a potential legal issue. even if
they claim to allow all other pros to somehow enter the qualification process, i still
see the deck as stacked against them. as of now, you can enter your local golden
gloves and advance to nationals and earn a spot in the US trials that way. you can enter
usaboxing and advance to the us amateur championships and earn a spot in the US
trials that way. you can compete at brigade level military tournaments and get sent
by base commanders to branch championships and then armed forces championships
and earn a spot in the US trials that way. i believe PAL champ also earns a spot in the
US trials. WSB/APB participation gets you back to the olympic trials and worlds, but in
order to participate in WSB you had to win a national title and perform well internationally.
i still don't see the avenue for established pros to make the US team and don't see it being
an easy process for them. olympic judges and gloves and refs are different and the team
sponsors just fund usaboxing and usoc who fund their programs. i barely even see olympic
boxing on tv anymore, anyway. i thought they were going to eliminate it entirely and replace
it with lasertag or synchronized sneezing. olympic boxing used to be big in the usa. this board
probably follows things more closely than most and i bet most still didn't watch any us olympic
boxers in london.

sucracristo wrote:
"But the Fightfax record is the difference between the pro and amateur bouts"

That was in reference to CSAC only, as that was your example. It isn't the general difference between pro and amateur, although with the new amateur rules it isn't easy to give a short statement that would apply worldwide. So in one way using the fightfax record as the difference between the codes for North America is easy shorthand.
While Olympic / amateur boxing is almost dead in the US it is thriving in the UK. WSB is available on the dedicated boxing channel. With even the women's boxing champion Nicola Adams receiving significant coverage. I doubt Claressa Shields is known beyond a very small hardcore of fans.