BoxRec

Davidreed wrote:What's your views about these controversies? You can also share your list.



3) Joe Louis Defeats Jersey Joe Walcott

The worst decision

foreman - ali
foreman beat the count at the very end
of the round.

No, he did not.
Don't go by the announcer counting.

Ambling Alp II wrote:No, he did not.
Don't go by the announcer counting.

foreman hit the ground at 11 secs to go.
the count starts two seconds later and
george is up at nine seconds after that.
he was the reigning champ and should
have got the benefit of doubt, yet they
gave him the opposite.

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:No, he did not.
Don't go by the announcer counting.

foreman hit the ground at 11 secs to go.
the count starts two seconds later and
george is up at nine seconds after that.
he was the reigning champ and should
have got the benefit of doubt, yet they
gave him the opposite.

He was fighting The Greatest, what do you expect? Big George didn't complain of the ref's count, anyway

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:No, he did not.
Don't go by the announcer counting.

foreman hit the ground at 11 secs to go.
the count starts two seconds later and
george is up at nine seconds after that.
he was the reigning champ and should
have got the benefit of doubt, yet they
gave him the opposite.

A champion should not get the benefit of the doubt; everyone should be treated equally.

It is not about the seconds elapsed; it is about the referee counting.
Besides what did you expect the referee to do? Check the TV monitor, see how much time there was left at the knockdown and then how much time was left when Foreman was up?
Where in the rules does it say he is supposed to do that?
What other fight have you ever seen that happen?

The referee counted 10 before Foreman was up. If you want to complain the referee counted slightly too fast that is one thing. However, he is a human being, not a clock.

Do you really check the time on every knockdown to see if the referee is exact?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

King Carlos wrote: Oh, they can. Skip to about 11:40.

https://youtu.be/0xa1uT8fcLs

Wow...un-f*cking-believable. Talk about hometown officiating.

Everett was in his hometown when he won 12 or 13 rounds and lost the decision. To make matters worse, his girl killed him after she caught him with a tranny.

This just made my shit day seem like a great one

Ambling Alp II wrote:The referee counted 10 before Foreman was up. If you want to complain the referee counted slightly too fast that is one thing. However, he is a human being, not a clock.

Do you really check the time on every knockdown to see if the referee is exact?

well, the title of the thread is "controversial
decisions in boxing". if the undefeated heavy
weight champion, who happens to be unpopular,
faces bambi and is counted out fast with literally
ten seconds left in a round i'd say that qualifies
for "controversial".

you mentioning that the ref was a human being
doesn't make his decision less controversial. and
yes, when a knock down happens and the fighter
gets up, but loses by knockout i indeed check if
that was fair.

bambi??
You really check every knockout to see if the count was not fast? If you really do, you will find some are 9 seconds, some 10, some 11.
If this was anyone but Ali nobody on the Forum would give this a second thought.
It's not controversial at all.

Ambling Alp II wrote:bambi??
You really check every knockout to see if the count was not fast? If you really do, you will find some are 9 seconds, some 10, some 11.
If this was anyone but Ali nobody on the Forum would give this a second thought.
It's not controversial at all.

actually i found nobody else but me who thinks
this controversial, yet i still do. foreman would
have lost anyways, but the way this happened
was not right and the only reason why there
was no controversy is, because bambi had won.

had ali been knocked down and counted out like
that the uproar would have been heard on mars.

man wrote:

Rexob wrote:leonard got lucky the first time.

no. it was a tactical master piece.

I agree

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:bambi??
You really check every knockout to see if the count was not fast? If you really do, you will find some are 9 seconds, some 10, some 11.
If this was anyone but Ali nobody on the Forum would give this a second thought.
It's not controversial at all.

actually i found nobody else but me who thinks
this controversial, yet i still do. foreman would
have lost anyways, but the way this happened
was not right and the only reason why there
was no controversy is, because bambi had won.

had ali been knocked down and counted out like
that the uproar would have been heard on mars.

Really? Nobody ever questions the officiating in any of Ali's losses.
Yet many of his wins in some way or another people whine about it. Nobody gets as many of his victories questioned as Ali does. Nobody else is even close. There was supposedly too much time in between rounds against Cooper, Jones should have got the decision, the Liston fights were fixed, the Lyle fight was stopped too soon. He held too much against Frazier, Frazier trainer should have let his blind fighter continue in the third fight. People complain he should not have got decisions vs Norton, Young, Shavers, even Evanglista and the second Spinks fight. Recently someone even brought up Chuvalo. It never ends, no matter how routine the fight was.

You are still calling Ali "bambi"? wtf

Yeah a fight that happened tonight. Robbery.

Marcus Browne vs Radivoje Kalajdzic

This thread is supposed to be about controversial DECISIONS & it has turned into one long argument about a fight that ended in a KO!

Ambling Alp II wrote:Really? Nobody ever questions the officiating in any of Ali's losses.
Yet many of his wins in some way or another people whine about it. Nobody gets as many of his victories questioned as Ali does. Nobody else is even close. There was supposedly too much time in between rounds against Cooper, Jones should have got the decision, the Liston fights were fixed, the Lyle fight was stopped too soon. He held too much against Frazier, Frazier trainer should have let his blind fighter continue in the third fight. People complain he should not have got decisions vs Norton, Young, Shavers, even Evanglista and the second Spinks fight. Recently someone even brought up Chuvalo. It never ends, no matter how routine the fight was.

You are still calling Ali "bambi"? wtf

i am talking about one incident in one
specific fight. if you want to bring mother
teresa into this, be my guest.

and yes ali was bambi going into that fight.
he was the sentimental underdog and half
the planet feared for his life. which is why
everyone was very happy how this ended
and no one questioned if it was fair to george.

if you want to imagine me being an ali hater,
you are flat wrong. and of course foreman
would have lost that fight anyways, which does
not make the way it ended less weird.

but i agree with another poster that this debate
hijacks the thread.

Syntax Error wrote:This thread is supposed to be about controversial DECISIONS & it has turned into one long argument about a fight that ended in a KO!

I know. Time to "call it a chat" as some would say.
Lets move on and discuss about decisions.

Syntax Error wrote:

Davidreed wrote:What's your views about these controversies? You can also share your list.

1)Timothy Bradley Defeats Manny Pacquiao, 2012

2) Oscar De La Hoya Defeats Pernell Whitaker, 1997

3) Joe Louis Defeats Jersey Joe Walcott, 1947

4) Floyd Mayweather Defeats Jose Luis Castillo, 2002

5) Pernell Whitaker and Julio Cesar Chavez Draw, 1993

6) Sugar Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns Draw, 1989

Number 5 is the biggest rip-off of the lot, possibly of all time.

A bigger rip-off than Whitaker "losing" to Jose Luis Ramirez? The Chavez fight was more high profile, but in terms of sheer outrageousness, the Ramirez fight, Everett-Escalera, Rios-Abril, Ottke-Reid are worse in my view.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Mar 2016, 14:39 Not especially high profile fights, but 2 of the worst robberies I've ever seen were...

Richar Abril vs Brandon Rios (I thought Abril won either 11 or 12 rounds...he still lost a Split Decision to Rios)

Tyson Cave vs Oscar Escandon (Cave dominated the fight, winning every single round. Escandon got the decision)

Robberies can't get any worse than that.

The three judges for the Abril-Rios fight were Jerry Roth, Glenn Trowbridge and Adalaide Byrd. Roth and Trowbridge are extremely respected judges and they both scored the fight for Rios. Byrd, the same judge who scored the first Canelo-GGG fight 118-110 for Canelo was the only of the three who scored the fight for Abril (117-111). I have never seen this fight, but I just looked it up. How peculiar is that? I will have to sit down and watch and score it one of these days.

2354595 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2026, 15:52

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Mar 2016, 14:39 Not especially high profile fights, but 2 of the worst robberies I've ever seen were...

Richar Abril vs Brandon Rios (I thought Abril won either 11 or 12 rounds...he still lost a Split Decision to Rios)

Tyson Cave vs Oscar Escandon (Cave dominated the fight, winning every single round. Escandon got the decision)

Robberies can't get any worse than that.

The three judges for the Abril-Rios fight were Jerry Roth, Glenn Trowbridge and Adalaide Byrd. Roth and Trowbridge are extremely respected judges and they both scored the fight for Rios. Byrd, the same judge who scored the first Canelo-GGG fight 118-110 for Canelo was the only of the three who scored the fight for Abril (117-111). I have never seen this fight, but I just looked it up. How peculiar is that? I will have to sit down and watch and score it one of these days.

I had a thread idea once called "Watching the Watchers" where I would name and shame bad judges or referees citing along with it the specific example of what fight they'd f*cked up and how. Some of them got named multiple times and were repeat offenders.

It was on a different website than this, but I always thought it was a good idea to keep tabs on that sort of thing.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 Mar 2026, 17:58

2354595 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2026, 15:52

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Mar 2016, 14:39 Not especially high profile fights, but 2 of the worst robberies I've ever seen were...

Richar Abril vs Brandon Rios (I thought Abril won either 11 or 12 rounds...he still lost a Split Decision to Rios)

Tyson Cave vs Oscar Escandon (Cave dominated the fight, winning every single round. Escandon got the decision)

Robberies can't get any worse than that.

The three judges for the Abril-Rios fight were Jerry Roth, Glenn Trowbridge and Adalaide Byrd. Roth and Trowbridge are extremely respected judges and they both scored the fight for Rios. Byrd, the same judge who scored the first Canelo-GGG fight 118-110 for Canelo was the only of the three who scored the fight for Abril (117-111). I have never seen this fight, but I just looked it up. How peculiar is that? I will have to sit down and watch and score it one of these days.

I had a thread idea once called "Watching the Watchers" where I would name and shame bad judges or referees citing along with it the specific example of what fight they'd f*cked up and how. Some of them got named multiple times and were repeat offenders.

It was on a different website than this, but I always thought it was a good idea to keep tabs on that sort of thing.

The worst officiating from the referee I have ever seen was in the Mares-Agbeko fight from 2011. Russell Mora was/is an experienced referee, as well.

The Holyfield Lewis draw was a big uproar here in the UK at the time. There had been a big build up to the fight being a chance for the first British lineal HW champ since Fitzsimmons.

I remember a couple of Valuev’s wins, especially Holyfield, being widely accepted as robberies at the time.

Not so much for the decision, but the refereeing in the Reid Ottke fight is another infamous one here in the UK. Reid was notoriously at one point warned for punching Ottke.

JC wrote: ↑22 Mar 2026, 06:18 The Holyfield Lewis draw was a big uproar here in the UK at the time. There had been a big build up to the fight being a chance for the first British lineal HW champ since Fitzsimmons.

I remember a couple of Valuev’s wins, especially Holyfield, being widely accepted as robberies at the time.

Not so much for the decision, but the refereeing in the Reid Ottke fight is another infamous one here in the UK. Reid was notoriously at one point warned for punching Ottke.

Holyfield vs Lewis is probably the worst decision I've ever seen in a Heavyweight Championship bout. I can't recall a worse one that comes immediately to mind.

Well, at least he got the decision in the 2nd fight in which he did next to nothing.
Williams-Holmes was pretty bad. I had Williams winning 145-140. (10-5). It was sort of strange fight. Williams would have a good round, then the next round would be very close and so on. Holmes almost never had a good round. I guess if you have every single close round to Holmes, you could have it 143-142, (8-7) for Holmes, which is how one judge had it.
The other two judges somehow, some way, had it 146-139 (11-4) for Holmes. Amazing that this fight seldom gets talked about.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Mar 2026, 12:18 Well, at least he got the decision in the 2nd fight in which he did next to nothing.
Williams-Holmes was pretty bad. I had Williams winning 145-140. (10-5). It was sort of strange fight. Williams would have a good round, then the next round would be very close and so on. Holmes almost never had a good round. I guess if you have every single close round to Holmes, you could have it 143-142, (8-7) for Holmes, which is how one judge had it.
The other two judges somehow, some way, had it 146-139 (11-4) for Holmes. Amazing that this fight seldom gets talked about.

I thought Lewis still beat Holyfield in their 2nd fight, but it was definitely much closer than the 1st one. Williams vs Holmes is closer to me than Witherspoon vs Holmes which often gets more attention.

Williams vs Witherspoon is also very close for that matter.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Mar 2026, 12:18 Well, at least he got the decision in the 2nd fight in which he did next to nothing.
Williams-Holmes was pretty bad. I had Williams winning 145-140. (10-5). It was sort of strange fight. Williams would have a good round, then the next round would be very close and so on. Holmes almost never had a good round. I guess if you have every single close round to Holmes, you could have it 143-142, (8-7) for Holmes, which is how one judge had it.
The other two judges somehow, some way, had it 146-139 (11-4) for Holmes. Amazing that this fight seldom gets talked about.

I scored Holmes-Williams recently. I scored it as follows:

Larry Holmes vs. Carl Williams (5-20-1985)

R1: 10-9 Williams
R2: 10-9 Williams
R3: 10-9 Holmes
R4: 10-9 Williams
R5: 10-9 Williams
R6: 10-9 Holmes
R7: 10-9 Williams
R8: 10-9 Holmes
R9: 10-9 Holmes
R10: 10-10 Even
R11: 10-10 Even
R12: 10-9 Holmes
R13: 10-9 Williams
R14: 10-9 Holmes
R15: 10-9 Holmes

144-143 Holmes

Very close to one of the three cards. I am not sure what the other two judges, who had Holmes winning by a fairly wide margin, were watching. However, I did give the fight, by the narrowest of margins, as you can see above, to Holmes.