BoxRec

Seamus wrote:And in fairness to Sonny. He never came unraveled in the ring against anyone not named Cassius Clay.

And Leotis Martin.... And Marty Marshall

He was way past when he fought Martin. That is like Tyson fighting McBride.
Liston lost to Martin but he did not become "unraveled".

And Ali was fine with the left hook. A three second knockdown to Cooper is not much considering all the fights he had in career against top competition, many whom had a great left hook.
Watch Tyson against James Tillis, Tony Tucker, James Smith and of course Douglas. You have to balance that with all the devastating knockouts when rating Tyson.

Ambling Alp II wrote:He was way past when he fought Martin. That is like Tyson fighting McBride.
Liston lost to Martin but he did not become "unraveled".

And Ali was fine with the left hook. A three second knockdown to Cooper is not much considering all the fights he had in career against top competition, many whom had a great left hook.
Watch Tyson against James Tillis, Tony Tucker, James Smith and of course Douglas. You have to balance that with all the devastating knockouts when rating Tyson.

Yes Frazier's left hook was prob the best in history and Ali got up from it. Im sure Ali would have handled Tyson just fine.

Tyson had a great chin something not many people would say Liston could take a good shot also I believe this fight would be won in the later round's
both have thunderous power Liston jab would have caused Tyson some problem's early on but a prime Tyson would start to get to Liston by round 4
with his unpredictable style of bobbing and weaving and coming up with fast and hard combination's and getting Liston off balance and backing the bigger Liston up and by round 11 Liston would be out on his feet when the ref wisely steps in to stop the carnage.

A prime Tyson struggled with the jabs of Tillis and Thomas. He was never a sound defender and he wasn't intuitive on the inside where he would need to beat Sonny. Tyson was at his best at midrange and that is a hell of a tough range to find with a telephone pole jab in your face. Mike gets beat up.

I'd pick Bowe over Liston of all the greats of that era.

Tyson had trouble Thomas' jab

I mean. Tyson had trouble with Thomas' jab ? That was a pretty one sided fight.

Seamus wrote:I mean. Tyson had trouble with Thomas' jab ? That was a pretty one sided fight.

I didn't think so, I've always rated that one of Mike's better performances, but he was far from dominant. Brutal KO though.

- Prime 19 yr old tyson struggling with tillis now is it because he could only knock him down and send him on a run for survival?

Typical larded logic by the usual tubby loads. And what was 21 yr old Clay struggling with when blasted into the ozone by ol' LH cooper and beat up by LH Doug jones?

Cut to the chase: 20 yr old tyson who bounced berbick off the canvas like a basketball with one knockdown destroys sonny within 3. Maybe after Tyson loses his HOF team and gets medicated by psychiatrists sonny has a Buster Douglas/mr field chance, but all this bully nonsense is stuff tossed around by soft lads bullied in their youth. All fighters are bullies in their fashion. Nobody was more talented and better trained than Tyson before tragedy and mental illness did him in.

Prime 19 yr old tyson, jeez, someone missing out on a great career as standup comic.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Seamus wrote:I mean. Tyson had trouble with Thomas' jab ? That was a pretty one sided fight.

I didn't think so, I've always rated that one of Mike's better performances, but he was far from dominant. Brutal KO though.

Pinklon will be still suffering from nightmare's from the beat down he copped from Tyson

All this stuff about Tyson's speed and ability to slip past Liston's jab every time is nonsense.

I saw Tyson getting hit by a journeyman Ribalta, and even an over-the-hill Pinklon Thomas hit him with jabs and one-twos. Both of whom lasted longer than the "three rounds" some of you are saying Liston couldn't last. Those guys had no power. Liston did have, lots more power, and MORE SKILL, and longer arms, and was at least as fast.

delete

yancey wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- Prime 19 yr old tyson struggling with tillis now is it because he could only knock him down and send him on a run for survival?

Typical larded logic by the usual tubby loads. And what was 21 yr old Clay struggling with when blasted into the ozone by ol' LH cooper and beat up by LH Doug jones?

Cut to the chase: 20 yr old tyson who bounced berbick off the canvas like a basketball with one knockdown destroys sonny within 3. Maybe after Tyson loses his HOF team and gets medicated by psychiatrists sonny has a Buster Douglas/mr field chance, but all this bully nonsense is stuff tossed around by soft lads bullied in their youth. All fighters are bullies in their fashion. Nobody was more talented and better trained than Tyson before tragedy and mental illness did him in.

Prime 19 yr old tyson, jeez, someone missing out on a great career as standup comic.

You've got Tyson taking out prime Sonny in 3?

Can't see that at all.

I take Sonny. Tyson likely discourages in this one.

Tyson would have trouble with a good jabber with a reach advantage ? And how many times was that claim shattered ?

Seamus wrote:Tyson would have trouble with a good jabber with a reach advantage ? And how many times was that claim shattered ?

Once, Buster Douglas.

Seamus wrote:Tyson would have trouble with a good jabber with a reach advantage ? And how many times was that claim shattered ?

He never beat a fighter of Liston's caliber, same can be said of Sonny. Though Patterson could be rated over Tyson. One of them would have a career defining win imo. No question the style favors Liston.

Sonny Liston is a bit overated in my book. He looked invincible beating up smaller guys like Patterson, but the fact is he has One successful title defense against Patterson, who he had 20 pounds on.
The biggest hit against Sonny in my opinion is that he only fought two decent heavyweights after Ali beat him (Martin and Wepner) of his last 16 fights he had a lot of stiffs.
From 1966-1970 there were plenty of tougher opponents he could have faced. Joe Frazier, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Ernie Terrell, George Foreman and others to namer a few.

Ah what I mean by bully is that both mike and sonny were devastating when on top but didn't find a lot when their back was against the wall (so its kind of the archetypal view of a bully who seems scary but isnt so much when they are pushed about themselves). In these mythical match ups against other champions, the will to win and come back from a losing position is something that may well be a deciding factor. So for example, get on top of mike tyson and he loses - get on top of say rocky marciano or larry holmes or evander holyfield and they will possibly come back at you to win. Liston's rep in this regard is really all about the two Ali fights, in particular the first one where he was outboxed for 6 rounds and quit on his stool - not something a lot of atg great heavys would have done.

Dont get me wrong, it may not be a deciding factor - for all we know sonny or mike could have koed some of these braver types early making it kind of irrelevant but its an attribute of utmost importance in these mythical head to heads and both mike and sonny are questionable in this regard. Sonny Liston was a killer for sure as was Tyson - my view is that Tyson's speed would be the main factor here.

yancey wrote:

yancey wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- Prime 19 yr old tyson struggling with tillis now is it because he could only knock him down and send him on a run for survival?

Typical larded logic by the usual tubby loads. And what was 21 yr old Clay struggling with when blasted into the ozone by ol' LH cooper and beat up by LH Doug jones?

Cut to the chase: 20 yr old tyson who bounced berbick off the canvas like a basketball with one knockdown destroys sonny within 3. Maybe after Tyson loses his HOF team and gets medicated by psychiatrists sonny has a Buster Douglas/mr field chance, but all this bully nonsense is stuff tossed around by soft lads bullied in their youth. All fighters are bullies in their fashion. Nobody was more talented and better trained than Tyson before tragedy and mental illness did him in.

Prime 19 yr old tyson, jeez, someone missing out on a great career as standup comic.

You've got Tyson taking out prime Sonny in 3?

Can't see that at all.

I take Sonny. Tyson likely discourages in this one.

Kurgen22 wrote:Sonny Liston is a bit overated in my book. He looked invincible beating up smaller guys like Patterson, but the fact is he has One successful title defense against Patterson, who he had 20 pounds on.
The biggest hit against Sonny in my opinion is that he only fought two decent heavyweights after Ali beat him (Martin and Wepner) of his last 16 fights he had a lot of stiffs.
From 1966-1970 there were plenty of tougher opponents he could have faced. Joe Frazier, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Ernie Terrell, George Foreman and others to namer a few.

Why would you care about his opposition in his 40's? Should Mosley be penalized because he isn't fighting Porter?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Why would you care about his opposition in his 40's? Should Mosley be penalized because he isn't fighting Porter?

In his 40's? Sonny died when he was 40... If one goes by his reported age he had one fight when he was 40, a win over Wepner.

The Opposition Tyson Faced from 35 to 40 was on a whole much tougher than what Sonny faced, ( other than Peter McNeely) . The Combined record of the guys he faced in those 7 fights was 211-14-2.

Kurgen22 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Why would you care about his opposition in his 40's? Should Mosley be penalized because he isn't fighting Porter?

In his 40's? Sonny died when he was 40... If one goes by his reported age he had one fight when he was 40, a win over Wepner.

The Opposition Tyson Faced from 35 to 40 was on a whole much tougher than what Sonny faced, ( other than Peter McNeely) . The Combined record of the guys he faced in those 7 fights was 211-14-2.

You're missing the point, record skimmer.

Sonny Liston in his prime mopped up the heavyweight division while Floyd Patterson (or rather Cus D'amato) delayed a title fight for years. When Liston received his belated shot he annihilated Patterson. In the rematch he did it again. He was denied a long championship reign by boxing politics, not by any talent deficit. And then he had the misfortune of a routine defence against Cassius Clay unmasking itself as an impossible assignment against the most gifted heavyweight ever.

You're ignoring Big Cat Williams I & II, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdez, Zora Folley and Eddie Machen presumably because you don't know who they are. You obviously know nothing of the Liston age mystery. And basing a 'prime Liston v prime Tyson' thread on who they were boxing when they were washed up defies common sense.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Kurgen22 wrote:
You're missing the point, record skimmer.

.

Someone posted about Liston "having fights in his 40s" I simply pointed out the vast difference in quality of opposition Tyson and Sonny during that time Period.
I also think Tyson was better in his prime.
Thats why these threads are opinions.
have a good day

Kurgen22 wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Kurgen22 wrote:
You're missing the point, record skimmer.

.

Someone posted about Liston "having fights in his 40s" I simply pointed out the vast difference in quality of opposition Tyson and Sonny during that time Period.
I also think Tyson was better in his prime.
Thats why these threads are opinions.
have a good day

Tyson didn't have any fights in his 40s, so your opinion is based on misunderstanding.

Also, outside of Lennox Lewis, which was a pure freak show arranged to cash in on Tyson's lingering notoriety, who exactly did he fight at 35 or after? No one of any consequence whatsoever. Liston chewed up Henry Clark and Chuck Wepner, and fought Leotis Martin. Tyson was partaking in circus contests versus the likes of Brian Nielsen, a morbidly obese novelty attraction. The old Liston wins out.

Tuan_Jim wrote:
Tyson didn't have any fights in his 40s, so your opinion is based on misunderstanding.
.

Mea Culpa, I misread the age on His Record, I was citing his record from 30-35.
From 35 to almost 39 I think Mike Still fought tougher Competion. 2 losses against Holyfield and Lewis, then the debacles against Williams and McBride.

Sonny had some real Tomato Cans during that time, several of whom he fought twice.

From 35 Tyson boxed Brian Nielsen, Lennox Lewis, Clifford Etienne, Danny Williams and Kevin McBride.

Barring Lennox Lewis that is an utterly abysmal list of opponents - and still Tyson lost to two of them.

Liston's Joiner, Scrap-Iron, Rischer, Clark and Martin are the far more competent collection.

None of this has any bearing on a Liston/Tyson matchup anyhow.