BoxRec

tigermoth87 wrote:I wouldn't rule Groves out, he's still a world level fighter.

I'd expect Callum to do it though, Groves is pretty chinny and I'd expect him to eventually get stopped.

Groves has fought at world level but I'd disagree that he's world level himself. You have to win a world level fights to get to that level

Might be interesting for 6 rounds before Groves tires, makes a mistake, hangs his chin out and gets KO'd.

freddydoesdallas wrote:

tigermoth87 wrote:I wouldn't rule Groves out, he's still a world level fighter.

I'd expect Callum to do it though, Groves is pretty chinny and I'd expect him to eventually get stopped.

Groves has fought at world level but I'd disagree that he's world level himself. You have to win a world level fights to get to that level

Yes, but where do you draw the line? When was Froch "world level" - after Pascal (who did he beat?), after Taylor (who did he beat at Super Middle), after Dirrell (did he win? and who did Dirrel beat) after Abraham (who did he beat at Super Middle at the time of the fight). Was Froch only world level after he beat Bute?

What defines world level fight - only for a world title? and what about losing razor tight decisions at world title level? (there is the Badou Jack fight which was very close and also Paul Smith was very close to winning the world title - had the fight been in the UK).

For me, someone who wins the EBU title quite clearly is world level. Someone who has a close run thing for the EBU title might not be world level. Groves won the EBU title very clearly - showing he is a level above EBU level..... meaning world level.

Groves at his very best I feel takes this. Smith is a big hitter and potential star, but still unproven and untested and might not be wise enough at this stage for a fully fit and motivated Groves

As it happens I'm not sure George can recapture that form or motivation so I'd opt for a Smith stoppage in the 8th

stujones wrote:

freddydoesdallas wrote:

tigermoth87 wrote:I wouldn't rule Groves out, he's still a world level fighter.

I'd expect Callum to do it though, Groves is pretty chinny and I'd expect him to eventually get stopped.

Groves has fought at world level but I'd disagree that he's world level himself. You have to win a world level fights to get to that level

Yes, but where do you draw the line? When was Froch "world level" - after Pascal (who did he beat?), after Taylor (who did he beat at Super Middle), after Dirrell (did he win? and who did Dirrel beat) after Abraham (who did he beat at Super Middle at the time of the fight). Was Froch only world level after he beat Bute?

What defines world level fight - only for a world title? and what about losing razor tight decisions at world title level? (there is the Badou Jack fight which was very close and also Paul Smith was very close to winning the world title - had the fight been in the UK).

For me, someone who wins the EBU title quite clearly is world level. Someone who has a close run thing for the EBU title might not be world level. Groves won the EBU title very clearly - showing he is a level above EBU level..... meaning world level.

I get your point but I think in this case he has stepped up each time and lost. I think it took a while before people considered world class by all and the bute fight was probably it. For me it was earlier but it is subjective.

Groves has had 4 defining fights for me. DeGale early on which he won but then his 3 world title fights which showed his deficiencies clearly. He still has a lot to prove

The younger hungrier fighter will win this. Looks to have a good defence and immense power, his body shots would slow Groves down pretty quickly before a knockout win.

freddydoesdallas wrote:

stujones wrote:

freddydoesdallas wrote:
Groves has fought at world level but I'd disagree that he's world level himself. You have to win a world level fights to get to that level

Yes, but where do you draw the line? When was Froch "world level" - after Pascal (who did he beat?), after Taylor (who did he beat at Super Middle), after Dirrell (did he win? and who did Dirrel beat) after Abraham (who did he beat at Super Middle at the time of the fight). Was Froch only world level after he beat Bute?

What defines world level fight - only for a world title? and what about losing razor tight decisions at world title level? (there is the Badou Jack fight which was very close and also Paul Smith was very close to winning the world title - had the fight been in the UK).

For me, someone who wins the EBU title quite clearly is world level. Someone who has a close run thing for the EBU title might not be world level. Groves won the EBU title very clearly - showing he is a level above EBU level..... meaning world level.

I get your point but I think in this case he has stepped up each time and lost. I think it took a while before people considered world class by all and the bute fight was probably it. For me it was earlier but it is subjective.

Groves has had 4 defining fights for me. DeGale early on which he won but then his 3 world title fights which showed his deficiencies clearly. He still has a lot to prove

I do agree, he definitely has a lot to prove. With Froch retired and Ward at Light Heavy (although I think he needs to consider moving back down, he looked tiny and not super cut at Light Heavy) - there is a case for Groves to have a pretty lofty ranking, I think there is a legitmate case to have Groves as high as #2 in the rankings - as he has beaten DeGale, but it is very close and you could make a case for Abraham, Jack, or DeGale as the #1 in the division. I would call him world level based on his being a level above EBU but he might actually be more a "world level gatekeeper" - you beat Groves and your world level.

Hinchy70 wrote:

Manchester Massive wrote:I think Groves is badly faded, Smith to beat him to oblivion within 4

Hypothetically, if Groves was to reach the level he did against Froch then how would you see it going?

Think it would be very close, possibly 2 fights too early for Smith. I think Smith will have a far better career than Groves though.

It's a really tough one to call at this stage.
I think I'd expect Groves on points but either way by stoppage or points wouldn't be a shock.

samwbr wrote:The younger hungrier fighter will win this. Looks to have a good defence and immense power, his body shots would slow Groves down pretty quickly before a knockout win.

Gallagher earmuffs are not a good defence imo.
That's what's gonna hold him back long term i reckon - no head movement, back in straight lines covering up, a big strong guy with a bit of nous will figure that out v.quickly and be able to land shots unquestionably, then he's relying on his chin which we haven't seen tested enough.

Smith looks superb offensively , punches short so well and in combinations for a big guy, but it's a huge leap to say he'll blow out guys like Groves, Degale, Jack, Abraham etc when he's been in with no-one close to as experienced or capable

^^^^ yes. noone's called him a 'big stiff idiot' yet. allow me, gents....

People still pine for the "old" Groves I see, but he's not been the same fighter since being cobra'd.

Callum Smith blew away a durable guy in one round, whereas Groves couldn't even make the weight for the patsy he boxed last.

Could George win? it's possible but I doubt the bookies would make him favourite.

It's very possible we see Smith vs Bute for the WBC instead, if he beats Badou Jack this month - because I can't see Bute vs Degale 2 being very interesting to networks, even if it is a unification fight, given they fought about 4 months ago.

Hinchy70 wrote:

THEBUTCH wrote:And a dangerous counter puncher.

Exactly, the sky hype is brainwashing people more than ever before

There's a lot of good British boxers on Sky Sports at the moment. It is feasible to like/rate some of them without being "brainwashed" by the hype.

I personally can't see Groves being able to evade Callum for 12 rounds. Groves has skills but also has chin issues and doesn't seem to be hitting as hard as he did pre-Froch. Callum isn't a 1 punch KO artist but you don't have to be to hurt Groves. Smith also seems to be an instinctive finisher. Mid-late stoppage for me.

On a side-note, did anyone see George's Seconds Out interview from the open workouts where he said Froch may have knocked me out but I retired him? He comes across next level deluded sometimes.

arlovski wrote:

samwbr wrote:The younger hungrier fighter will win this. Looks to have a good defence and immense power, his body shots would slow Groves down pretty quickly before a knockout win.

Gallagher earmuffs are not a good defence imo.
That's what's gonna hold him back long term i reckon - no head movement, back in straight lines covering up, a big strong guy with a bit of nous will figure that out v.quickly and be able to land shots unquestionably, then he's relying on his chin which we haven't seen tested enough.

Smith looks superb offensively , punches short so well and in combinations for a big guy, but it's a huge leap to say he'll blow out guys like Groves, Degale, Jack, Abraham etc when he's been in with no-one close to as experienced or capable

Great post Perfectly captures my sentiments as well.

I guess we can look at Smith and AJ in a very similar way at the moment. They have blown out lesser opponents, but what will it be like when they face someone near the top of the division. Unfortunately with Groves, despite him still being relatively young, he is not the same fighter we saw in that first fight against Froch. That version of Groves could be an absolutely nightmare for Smith. Always a moving target, and forcing Smith to exert a lot more energy than normal. The Groves now is less convincing. I think we would see a great fight, with Smith winning in the second half of the fight.

Groves is a dangerous fighter,he carries power and its too dangerous for Callum,id stay away from Groves if I was the Smith camp,not saying Groves would win but its too much of a risk,ask Paul Smith how much of a risk it is

Smith looks the real deal, but fact is no one has tested his chin and heart resistance, and someone like Groves can punch, and I mean really punch, so they'd be very nervous about throwing in their million dollar baby with someone as canny & dangerous as Groves just yet.

danamba7 wrote:

Hinchy70 wrote:

THEBUTCH wrote:And a dangerous counter puncher.

Exactly, the sky hype is brainwashing people more than ever before

There's a lot of good British boxers on Sky Sports at the moment. It is feasible to like/rate some of them without being "brainwashed" by the hype.

I personally can't see Groves being able to evade Callum for 12 rounds. Groves has skills but also has chin issues and doesn't seem to be hitting as hard as he did pre-Froch. Callum isn't a 1 punch KO artist but you don't have to be to hurt Groves. Smith also seems to be an instinctive finisher. Mid-late stoppage for me.

On a side-note, did anyone see George's Seconds Out interview from the open workouts where he said Froch may have knocked me out but I retired him? He comes across next level deluded sometimes.

I was referring to the fact Sky are making out Smith to be the Kovalev of SMW. But let's be real who has he beat? Fielding has found his level and its low European, Buglioni level? Groves did a better job on Rebrasse although he got ridiculed for that performance, I personally think smith could reach the upper echelons of SMW division but he has beat no one. The lad at the weekend lost to nikolai sejlocka on points for heavens sake.

Hinchy70 wrote:

danamba7 wrote:

Hinchy70 wrote:
Exactly, the sky hype is brainwashing people more than ever before

There's a lot of good British boxers on Sky Sports at the moment. It is feasible to like/rate some of them without being "brainwashed" by the hype.

I personally can't see Groves being able to evade Callum for 12 rounds. Groves has skills but also has chin issues and doesn't seem to be hitting as hard as he did pre-Froch. Callum isn't a 1 punch KO artist but you don't have to be to hurt Groves. Smith also seems to be an instinctive finisher. Mid-late stoppage for me.

On a side-note, did anyone see George's Seconds Out interview from the open workouts where he said Froch may have knocked me out but I retired him? He comes across next level deluded sometimes.

I was referring to the fact Sky are making out Smith to be the Kovalev of SMW. But let's be real who has he beat? Fielding has found his level and its low European, Buglioni level? Groves did a better job on Rebrasse although he got ridiculed for that performance, I personally think smith could reach the upper echelons of SMW division but he has beat no one. The lad at the weekend lost to nikolai sejlocka on points for heavens sake.

I definitely don't think he's the Kovalev of the division but you don't have to hit like Kovalev to get Groves in trouble.

As I said, personally I think Smith would stop him mid-late but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Groves won.

Hinchy70 wrote:

danamba7 wrote:

Hinchy70 wrote:
Exactly, the sky hype is brainwashing people more than ever before

There's a lot of good British boxers on Sky Sports at the moment. It is feasible to like/rate some of them without being "brainwashed" by the hype.

I personally can't see Groves being able to evade Callum for 12 rounds. Groves has skills but also has chin issues and doesn't seem to be hitting as hard as he did pre-Froch. Callum isn't a 1 punch KO artist but you don't have to be to hurt Groves. Smith also seems to be an instinctive finisher. Mid-late stoppage for me.

On a side-note, did anyone see George's Seconds Out interview from the open workouts where he said Froch may have knocked me out but I retired him? He comes across next level deluded sometimes.

I was referring to the fact Sky are making out Smith to be the Kovalev of SMW. But let's be real who has he beat? Fielding has found his level and its low European, Buglioni level? Groves did a better job on Rebrasse although he got ridiculed for that performance, I personally think smith could reach the upper echelons of SMW division but he has beat no one. The lad at the weekend lost to nikolai sejlocka on points for heavens sake.

fights were scored:

Groves: referee: Adrio Zannoni judges: Massimo Barrovecchio 110-118, Bela Florian 110-118, Robert Verwijs 111-117

Smith: referee: Victor Loughlin judges: Tim Cheatham 118-110, John Keane 118-110, Robin Dolpierre 120-107

Very similar performances, both were clear winners but I thought Smith was more dominant than Groves.

As it stands I see Smith winning this one. But by the time it happens (if it does) Groves will have had a few fights under his new trainer. I suspect this will improve him as I felt he stuggled after moving on from Booth. It might be that he has declined but the training methods may just not have suited him, meaning he wasn't 100% going into the ring.

Whatever happens, it would be an interesting bout.

samwbr wrote:

Hinchy70 wrote:

danamba7 wrote:
There's a lot of good British boxers on Sky Sports at the moment. It is feasible to like/rate some of them without being "brainwashed" by the hype.

I personally can't see Groves being able to evade Callum for 12 rounds. Groves has skills but also has chin issues and doesn't seem to be hitting as hard as he did pre-Froch. Callum isn't a 1 punch KO artist but you don't have to be to hurt Groves. Smith also seems to be an instinctive finisher. Mid-late stoppage for me.

On a side-note, did anyone see George's Seconds Out interview from the open workouts where he said Froch may have knocked me out but I retired him? He comes across next level deluded sometimes.

I was referring to the fact Sky are making out Smith to be the Kovalev of SMW. But let's be real who has he beat? Fielding has found his level and its low European, Buglioni level? Groves did a better job on Rebrasse although he got ridiculed for that performance, I personally think smith could reach the upper echelons of SMW division but he has beat no one. The lad at the weekend lost to nikolai sejlocka on points for heavens sake.

fights were scored:

Groves: referee: Adrio Zannoni judges: Massimo Barrovecchio 110-118, Bela Florian 110-118, Robert Verwijs 111-117

Smith: referee: Victor Loughlin judges: Tim Cheatham 118-110, John Keane 118-110, Robin Dolpierre 120-107

Very similar performances, both were clear winners but I thought Smith was more dominant than Groves.

At a few stages of I remember, Rebrasse was getting the better of Smith and pushing him back? but yes similar performances but Sky slaughtered Groves for that

Hinchy70 wrote:

samwbr wrote:

Hinchy70 wrote:
I was referring to the fact Sky are making out Smith to be the Kovalev of SMW. But let's be real who has he beat? Fielding has found his level and its low European, Buglioni level? Groves did a better job on Rebrasse although he got ridiculed for that performance, I personally think smith could reach the upper echelons of SMW division but he has beat no one. The lad at the weekend lost to nikolai sejlocka on points for heavens sake.

fights were scored:

Groves: referee: Adrio Zannoni judges: Massimo Barrovecchio 110-118, Bela Florian 110-118, Robert Verwijs 111-117

Smith: referee: Victor Loughlin judges: Tim Cheatham 118-110, John Keane 118-110, Robin Dolpierre 120-107

Very similar performances, both were clear winners but I thought Smith was more dominant than Groves.

At a few stages of I remember, Rebrasse was getting the better of Smith and pushing him back? but yes similar performances but Sky slaughtered Groves for that

You're right. Groves busted Rebrasse up with the jab alone, hit him a lot of shots/combinations at will, and was always the dominant fighter (though Rebrasse was tough as nails).

Smith got backed up repeatedly by Rebrasse, ate a lot of shots through and around his guard and didn't look massively stronger than the Frenchman, who if he had a dig would have been right in that fight i reckon, considering the amount he was able to land on Smith.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on right now cause Smith has suddenly been labelled a monster/killer/destroyer by the Sky hype machine

Hinchy70 wrote:

samwbr wrote:

Hinchy70 wrote:
I was referring to the fact Sky are making out Smith to be the Kovalev of SMW. But let's be real who has he beat? Fielding has found his level and its low European, Buglioni level? Groves did a better job on Rebrasse although he got ridiculed for that performance, I personally think smith could reach the upper echelons of SMW division but he has beat no one. The lad at the weekend lost to nikolai sejlocka on points for heavens sake.

fights were scored:

Groves: referee: Adrio Zannoni judges: Massimo Barrovecchio 110-118, Bela Florian 110-118, Robert Verwijs 111-117

Smith: referee: Victor Loughlin judges: Tim Cheatham 118-110, John Keane 118-110, Robin Dolpierre 120-107

Very similar performances, both were clear winners but I thought Smith was more dominant than Groves.

At a few stages of I remember, Rebrasse was getting the better of Smith and pushing him back? but yes similar performances but Sky slaughtered Groves for that

Wouldn't go that far but he got some stick. Probably because Groves was coming down from world level and expected to deal handily with Euro level opposition where as Smith was stepping up to Euro level, still expected to win, but hadn't proven it yet.

crusader wrote:

lefty wrote:

crusader wrote:Groves fought fairly closely with Jack last time out and I don't think he's done. Smith looks good and may well grind him down for a stoppage, but Callum has still shown flaws, has been extended several times despite his last two blowouts, and IMO hasn't fought anyone in the top 15....guys like Rebrasse, Fielding, Mouhmoudi, and Sjekoca are decent but in my view limited compared to Groves.

I think Groves would be much more capable of exploiting Callum's shortcomings (notably speed and defensive IMO) than Callum's opposition to date, though Smith has a powerful, grinding style that I can see overwhelming Groves eventually. It would be a very interesting matchup.

Grinding? His last wins have been 1st round stoppages over one guy who hadnt lost before and another who had never been stopped before. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Smith is some Julian Jackson style puncher but I think he's pretty heavy hitting and Groves has never had the best chin in the sport.

Let's get real....Smith has been the distance 5 times in 19 fights even without facing a top 15 guy, and his recent blowouts have been against guys who stood right in front of him, don't have Groves's speed, and don't move nearly as well as him. He obviously has power but I'm not convinced that he's going to be the same type of monster against better fighters.

The same could be said for Groves though. Prior to fighting Froch, who had he fought bar Degale who wasnt a top 15 guy at the time and a shot worn Johnson who he had stopped which was particularly impressive? Also, let's not forget, Smith managed to drop Rebrasse something which Groves couldnt do. Regarding Groves movement and speed, I wouldnt say Badou Jack is a particularly great mover (very upright and quite stiff himself) and I wouldnt say he's a particularly great puncher either. I'd say Smith is on a similar level punching power wise if not superior and yet he dropped Groves and hurt him pretty badly.