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Posted: 16 Jul 2004, 15:43
by silkov
For me Tyson ranks as a great puncher rather than a great fighter... he had/has far too many mental flaws to become a really great champion... had Tyson had the mentality of a Holifield, Holmes or Ali then he could have been one of the top 5 heavyweight champs of them all!.
Posted: 16 Jul 2004, 16:02
by stujones
silkov wrote:For me Tyson ranks as a great puncher rather than a great fighter... he had/has far too many mental flaws to become a really great champion... had Tyson had the mentality of a Holifield, Holmes or Ali then he could have been one of the top 5 heavyweight champs of them all!.
I think your a bit being a bit harsh there, Tyson was much more than a puncher. His defence was awesome, I remeber one of his title defences, where the opponent threw about five potential KO blows (i.e. full force) Tyson slipped them all in his own unique way, and got through with the one punch needed to win the fight. I can't remember the fight, but if any lay boxing fan asks me which one moment shows the art of boxing, I say that one, followed by the punch Leonard landed on Hearns that staggered him in the 5th of their rematch.
Obviously Tyson's mentally will always be question, its just a pity there was no rival to really threaten him during his peak years. I believe, that when Rooney was on board Tyson's main focus was boxing and he was a mentally strong fighter. The only evidence I have to back this view up was his pateince in those long and mentally taxing unification contests he had with Tucker and Smith. Tyson went of the rails just before the Bruno contest, and I think could have been beaten by any of the greats then. But those Rooney years, I just think he was unstoppable, by anybody.
I also think if Tyson had the mentality and focus of Holyfield, Holmes etc, he would have been greater than a top 5 spot. He doesn't deserve that credit now, cause he f'd it up. But for me, he could have been the greatest fighter of all time. The guy had it all for those two years - speed, STAMINA, amazing power, defence, footspeed, focus, chin. The guy was awesome.
Posted: 16 Jul 2004, 19:54
by silkov
stujones wrote:silkov wrote:For me Tyson ranks as a great puncher rather than a great fighter... he had/has far too many mental flaws to become a really great champion... had Tyson had the mentality of a Holifield, Holmes or Ali then he could have been one of the top 5 heavyweight champs of them all!.
I think your a bit being a bit harsh there, Tyson was much more than a puncher. His defence was awesome, I remeber one of his title defences, where the opponent threw about five potential KO blows (i.e. full force) Tyson slipped them all in his own unique way, and got through with the one punch needed to win the fight. I can't remember the fight, but if any lay boxing fan asks me which one moment shows the art of boxing, I say that one, followed by the punch Leonard landed on Hearns that staggered him in the 5th of their rematch.
With respect Stu it's not harsh at all. While Tyson was impressive during the mid to late 80s he was feasting on mediocre and faded talent... yet he was still exposed by Tillis, Tucker, BoneCrusher Smith then finally James Douglas. Tyson is basically a front runner who has always fallen apart when faced with a fighter of good skills who can take his punches and come back. Look at how Ali was able to come back and beat Frazier, Norton, Foreman etc when badly faded physically... look at how Joe Louis got up from the floor to beat Galento, Baer, Braddock, and came from behind to beat Conn.... or how Larry Holmes came back in that last round against Norton and got up against Shavers, and Snipes and rallied from behind to beat Weaver, Witherspoon and Williams.... these are the sort of performances that mark a champion as great... Tyson is not in this class, not by a long way in my opinion. In boxing mental strength is more important than physical talent.... it is the mental make up of a fighter that really decides how good or great he will be and Tyson is and always was badly flawed on this point.... and thats why for me he is at most a great puncher.... not a great champion.
Obviously Tyson's mentally will always be question, its just a pity there was no rival to really threaten him during his peak years. I believe, that when Rooney was on board Tyson's main focus was boxing and he was a mentally strong fighter. The only evidence I have to back this view up was his pateince in those long and mentally taxing unification contests he had with Tucker and Smith. Tyson went of the rails just before the Bruno contest, and I think could have been beaten by any of the greats then. But those Rooney years, I just think he was unstoppable, by anybody.
I also think if Tyson had the mentality and focus of Holyfield, Holmes etc, he would have been greater than a top 5 spot. He doesn't deserve that credit now, cause he f'd it up. But for me, he could have been the greatest fighter of all time. The guy had it all for those two years - speed, STAMINA, amazing power, defence, footspeed, focus, chin. The guy was awesome.
Posted: 16 Jul 2004, 20:08
by stujones
I'm not sure how you can say he was exposed by Tillis, Tucker and Smith when he got a W under his belt. Yes, I do agree mentally he's HAS shown flaws and the fact he has only on one occasion won a fight he was losing (Botha) is a valid argument. However, this wasn't during his peak years when his focus was on boxing.
I'm not saying Tyson deserves to rank alongside the Ali's, Louis, Marciano's and Holmes' of this world - because he was mentally shot by 24 and his focus was gone. However, its hard to know how he would have reacted when in trouble during his purple patch (I would say his focus was gone from the sport before the first Bruno bout).
There is evidence I think that Tyson prejail had some mental strength, I mean when way out of shape and getting a kicking he still nearly KO'd Douglas. He also came back from being hurt by Bruno (obviously nothing to what the likes of Ali and a host of other heayweights have managed).
There is also his performance against Botha, when he looked like he was a round or two from being stopped and pulled it out of the bag.
As I said, in a global viewpoint of Tyson's whole career, you are most definately correct about Tyson's ability to handle pressure and pain. However, I think his heart was not in the game when the big time pressure and pain came to him and he might have reacted differently in his prime.
Of course it is alot of what ifs. Mind you, if you would have gone from not being allowed out, to become one of the richest, most famous 20 year olds in the world - your focus on boxing is bound to seriously damaged.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 06:27
by silkov
stujones wrote:I'm not sure how you can say he was exposed by Tillis, Tucker and Smith when he got a W under his belt. Yes, I do agree mentally he's HAS shown flaws and the fact he has only on one occasion won a fight he was losing (Botha) is a valid argument. However, this wasn't during his peak years when his focus was on boxing.
I'm not saying Tyson deserves to rank alongside the Ali's, Louis, Marciano's and Holmes' of this world - because he was mentally shot by 24 and his focus was gone. However, its hard to know how he would have reacted when in trouble during his purple patch (I would say his focus was gone from the sport before the first Bruno bout).
There is evidence I think that Tyson prejail had some mental strength, I mean when way out of shape and getting a kicking he still nearly KO'd Douglas. He also came back from being hurt by Bruno (obviously nothing to what the likes of Ali and a host of other heayweights have managed).
There is also his performance against Botha, when he looked like he was a round or two from being stopped and pulled it out of the bag.
As I said, in a global viewpoint of Tyson's whole career, you are most definately correct about Tyson's ability to handle pressure and pain. However, I think his heart was not in the game when the big time pressure and pain came to him and he might have reacted differently in his prime.
Of course it is alot of what ifs. Mind you, if you would have gone from not being allowed out, to become one of the richest, most famous 20 year olds in the world - your focus on boxing is bound to seriously damaged.
Tyson was exposed by Tillis and Smith in particular in that they showed that Tyson lacked the ability to alter his approach in a fight when faced by an opponent who could take his shots, hold, move jab... etc. Tyson would always have been troubled by clever fast fighters who he 'd be unable to catch much and tough fighters able to take his shots and give some back... this is one reason why Tyson doesn't make the top ten of Heavyweights imo. I think had Tyson come along in the 70s when the division was full of talent that ne would have been a Jeff Merrit like figure... great puncher but unable to make the top grade... I think most of the top guys of that period would have been too much for Mike.
Tyson came along in the 80s when there was a sudden dip in quality of the division... fighters like Holmes, Dokes, Thomas were all faded and there wasn't much else about. Notice also that Tyson was kept well away from Tim Witherspoon... who I'm sure would have beaten the peak Tyson.... as would I think Greg Page and Mike Dokes. Greatness can't be measured in how much a fighter has earned.... the sad fact is that Tyson has been little more than a freak show since the mid-90s and the only reason he still has any career is this and the fact that the Heavyweight scene is so amazingly weak right now.
So for me Mike just doesn't make it as a great champ by his skills and then also you have him as a person and I won't go on about it but personally I don't think he ever should have been allowed to fight again after that ear biting!.... but money talks so there you are!.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 06:54
by Goz
I'm certainly no Tyson apologist but I think you are doing Tyson the 'fighter' an enormous dis-service with your comments. Greg Page and Michael Dokes would have beaten him? I doubt they would have completed a round between them. Witherspoon? I doubt they avoided him, Tim was frozen out by the Kings for other reasons, I don't believe Team Tyson feared anybody at the time.
I think the 86-88 Tyson would have fared well in any era but it's true the quality of his opposition during that period doesn't look great under close scrutiny, however the manner with which he cut through them was still very impressive.
As for the thread title, Bennie's is a very interesting pick but not one I agree with. I agree with those of you who plumped for the Pinklon Thomas and Tyrell Biggs performances, they had a bit of everything. The opponent didn't capitulate and offered a little resistance so Tyson had to break them apart, won every round and treated us to a great finish.
Whatever I've said about Tyson I would just love a re-incarnation to come along, right about now.....
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 07:53
by knockout artist
For me, Tysons most impressive wins were the KO's of Carl Williams and Alex Stewart.
In his brief prime, Tyson could have competed with any Heavyweight in history.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 08:15
by KOJOE90
stujones wrote:Tyrell Biggs of course, gave Tyson alot of Verbals before the match and of course was a 1984 Olympic medalist (Gold?) and I believe had some sort of rivalary with Tyson in the amateurs.
Yes Stu Biggs did win Gold at Super-Heavyweight, beating Lewis and Damiani along the way. As we know years later he would lose to both without the vest on.
I'm not aware of any direct rivalry between Tyson and Biggs in the Amateurs. I know Biggs Olympic team mate Henry Tillman twice outpointed Tyson in the 1984 Olympic Box-offs at Heavyweight, but Biggs was at Super Heavyweight.
Biggs of course lost to the great Cuban Teofilio Stevenson (3 times?) as an Amateur, but Cuba of course did not go to the 1984 Olympics.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 08:25
by KOJOE90
silkov wrote:I think had Tyson come along in the 70s when the division was full of talent that ne would have been a Jeff Merrit like figure... great puncher but unable to make the top grade...
I'm no Tyson fan and don't rate him as high as most but I think he was a better fighter than 'Candy Slim' Merrit, at his best.
He was at least in the Lyle, Quarry and Shavers bracket, I've always thought a mentaly right Quarry (or Jimmy Young) with his boxing head on against a peak Tyson would have been very interesting indeed.
To me Tysons biggest flaw was that he
CANNOT fight at all on the back foot.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 08:25
by stujones
What I meant Joe was didn't Biggs try to out psych Tyson by going on about their respected Amateur credentials in the build up to the fight? I also thought there were some tension between the two in their Amateur days, although they may have never fought.
Biggs was a very cocky charater, and Tyson I believe specifically went out to torture him. I remember Biggs having a half decent first round, but Tyson was looking to inflict a perminant psychological star on Biggs, which he did. I think had Tyson not been around, or even not in the mood he was that night - Biggs would have become a world champion of some note aswell.
Tyson wasn't as wild as sometimes he could be and went out specifically to give Biggs as big as beating as possible before stopping the fight. As I said, he was in a cruel mood that night and was truly awesome.
For me on a single performance that was Tyson at his absolute best, however given Pinklon Thomas' accomplishments as a pro and the fact many Journalists thought only he and Spinks could beat Tyson - That performance was also awesome.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 08:26
by Dynamite Dean Phillips
See the way Tyson KO'd Marvis Frazier...that was breathtaking. You could see Frazier lifted off the canvas, and Tyson nailing him with about 10 accurate shots all landing flush on his chin in a matter of seconds.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 08:27
by KOJOE90
bollocks wrote:Besides Tyson's rivalry with Tillman he also had one with Holyfield. Not in the ring but on the pool table. Story goes that one night the US guys were playing pool and Tyson lost but didn't want to hand the pool cue to the next player - Holyfield. "Gimme that stick" said Holyfield. "Nope" said Tyson. A standoff ensued and Holyfield eventually got the pool cue, showing that even then Tyson backed down to Holyfield
Yes I remember reading about that around the time of the two Holyfield - Tyson fights.
It's a good example of how much mental strength is part of Boxing.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 08:38
by KOJOE90
stujones wrote:What I meant Joe was didn't Biggs try to out psych Tyson by going on about their respected Amateur credentials in the build up to the fight? I also thought there were some tension between the two in their Amateur days, although they may have never fought.
Biggs was a very cocky charater, and Tyson I believe specifically went out to torture him. I remember Biggs having a half decent first round, but Tyson was looking to inflict a perminant psychological star on Biggs, which he did. I think had Tyson not been around, or even not in the mood he was that night - Biggs would have become a world champion of some note aswell.
Tyson wasn't as wild as sometimes he could be and went out specifically to give Biggs as big as beating as possible before stopping the fight. As I said, he was in a cruel mood that night and was truly awesome.
For me on a single performance that was Tyson at his absolute best, however given Pinklon Thomas' accomplishments as a pro and the fact many Journalists thought only he and Spinks could beat Tyson - That performance was also awesome.
I take your point Stu, can't recall hearing about any Amateur tension between them, maybe others here do.
As I've said in my first post on this thread I agree with you that Tysons best performances were against Biggs and Thomas.
I remember Tyson saying after his prolonged beating of Biggs something like "Everytime I hit him he made sounds like a little girl". He was indeed in a spitefull mood that night.
If Tyson was not around I'm not too sure if Tyrell Biggs would have been much more sucsessfull, not because of any lack of talent but because of his drug problems.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 09:09
by stujones
Very true KOJoe about Biggs drug problems. However, I do think they may not have arose if he wasn't humiliated by Tyson. There is some characters in boxing, who hype themselves up so much, that they cannot live with themselves (or face the public) when things go wrong. Some people would call Tyson one of these people.
Biggs seemed to have this bully esque quality about him and I think went of the rails as a result of the Tyson loss - perhaps I could be wrong though.
All ifs, buts and maybe's.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 10:36
by silkov
stujones wrote:Very true KOJoe about Biggs drug problems. However, I do think they may not have arose if he wasn't humiliated by Tyson. There is some characters in boxing, who hype themselves up so much, that they cannot live with themselves (or face the public) when things go wrong. Some people would call Tyson one of these people.
Biggs seemed to have this bully esque quality about him and I think went of the rails as a result of the Tyson loss - perhaps I could be wrong though.
All ifs, buts and maybe's.
Biggs had a drug problem well before the Tyson fight!.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 10:54
by stujones
silkov wrote:stujones wrote:Very true KOJoe about Biggs drug problems. However, I do think they may not have arose if he wasn't humiliated by Tyson. There is some characters in boxing, who hype themselves up so much, that they cannot live with themselves (or face the public) when things go wrong. Some people would call Tyson one of these people.
Biggs seemed to have this bully esque quality about him and I think went of the rails as a result of the Tyson loss - perhaps I could be wrong though.
All ifs, buts and maybe's.
Biggs had a drug problem well before the Tyson fight!.
Oh did he? Didn't not realise this - what year did his drug problems start. Surely after 1984?
Fair enough, I stand correct - but still think Tyson f'd up Biggs more than he did himself. The Biggs pre Tyson even as a pro wasn't the same as the one who lost to Mason.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 12:21
by silkov
stujones wrote:silkov wrote:stujones wrote:Very true KOJoe about Biggs drug problems. However, I do think they may not have arose if he wasn't humiliated by Tyson. There is some characters in boxing, who hype themselves up so much, that they cannot live with themselves (or face the public) when things go wrong. Some people would call Tyson one of these people.
Biggs seemed to have this bully esque quality about him and I think went of the rails as a result of the Tyson loss - perhaps I could be wrong though.
All ifs, buts and maybe's.
Biggs had a drug problem well before the Tyson fight!.
I think Biggs drugs problem started soon after he won the gold in the olimpics.... though it may have been even before that... I know for a fact though that he was talking about how he had conquered his drug addiction and alcoholism in the lead up to the Tyson fight ( I have him on video talking about it). It was crinimal that Biggs was put into the ring with Tyson at that stage.... he had good skills but was lacking experience as a pro, also by his own account he was recovering from drug and alcohol addictions.... hardly the sort of shape he needed to be in to beat Tyson. My guess is that his management just wanted to cash in their chips with him. After the Tyson fight Biggs pretty much went down hill it's true as he'd been pretty much burned up and must have lost what confidence and ambitions he had had..... but I think his management team are as guilty of runing Biggs as Tyson was.... Tyrell was allowed to take a tremendous beating as well... watching the fight recently I got the feeling that his corner didn't really give a damn about him!.
Oh did he? Didn't not realise this - what year did his drug problems start. Surely after 1984?
Fair enough, I stand correct - but still think Tyson f'd up Biggs more than he did himself. The Biggs pre Tyson even as a pro wasn't the same as the one who lost to Mason.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 12:56
by KOJOE90
stujones wrote:silkov wrote:stujones wrote:Very true KOJoe about Biggs drug problems. However, I do think they may not have arose if he wasn't humiliated by Tyson. There is some characters in boxing, who hype themselves up so much, that they cannot live with themselves (or face the public) when things go wrong. Some people would call Tyson one of these people.
Biggs seemed to have this bully esque quality about him and I think went of the rails as a result of the Tyson loss - perhaps I could be wrong though.
All ifs, buts and maybe's.
Biggs had a drug problem well before the Tyson fight!.
Oh did he? Didn't not realise this - what year did his drug problems start. Surely after 1984?
Fair enough, I stand correct - but still think Tyson f'd up Biggs more than he did himself. The Biggs pre Tyson even as a pro wasn't the same as the one who lost to Mason.
I believe the Duva's rushed Biggs into the Tyson fight because thay felt he would soon self-destruct with his addictions and they wanted to give him a title shot and payday etc ASAP because of this.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 13:06
by silkov
KOJOE90 wrote:stujones wrote:silkov wrote:
Biggs had a drug problem well before the Tyson fight!.
Oh did he? Didn't not realise this - what year did his drug problems start. Surely after 1984?
Fair enough, I stand correct - but still think Tyson f'd up Biggs more than he did himself. The Biggs pre Tyson even as a pro wasn't the same as the one who lost to Mason.
I believe the Duva's rushed Biggs into the Tyson fight because thay felt he would soon self-destruct with his addictions and they wanted to give him a title shot and payday etc ASAP because of this.
I don't want to be too cynical but find it hard to beleive that they had Biggs best interests in mind... the whole thing was not conductive to rebuilding someones selfrespect and confidence up... some thing that needs to be done for people attempting to recover from addictions.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 15:00
by stujones
Silkov, thanks for the info.
One thing that I did find strange is that you talked about rebuilding Tyrell's confidence following his drug problem. That is normally sound logic, but with Tyrell he seemed to ooze confidence, almost arrogance in the led up to the Tyson fight (from what I can remember). Tyrell got on Tyson's nerves with his attitude, and thats why Tyson fought the way he should. I don't think he had a confidence problem before the Tyson fight despite his personal problems.
Posted: 17 Jul 2004, 17:08
by silkov
stujones wrote:Silkov, thanks for the info.
One thing that I did find strange is that you talked about rebuilding Tyrell's confidence following his drug problem. That is normally sound logic, but with Tyrell he seemed to ooze confidence, almost arrogance in the led up to the Tyson fight (from what I can remember). Tyrell got on Tyson's nerves with his attitude, and thats why Tyson fought the way he should. I don't think he had a confidence problem before the Tyson fight despite his personal problems.
Yes, but that (Tyrells confidence) was his outward appearence and talk, I doubt very much that he was as confident inside... people who abuse alcohol or drugs rarely are... it's very possible that Biggs entered the fight in a positive frame of mind but ofcouse one can guess at how he felt afterwards. I really feel that his management should have given him at least another 18 months or so to develop and really prove that he was free of the drugs etc...... he was thrown in against Tyson at a very vulnerble point of his life and his management should have known better... the result is written in Tyrells record following the Tyson fight.
Also prior to the Tyson fight Biggs had some hard fights... too hard for the stage he was at... he broke his jaw in one fight and his collarbone in another I beleive.
I also remember reading an article on Biggs in the 80s where he talks about not feeling able to live up to the expectations put upon him following the Olimpics...
Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 05:10
by The Devil In Roy Jones
I love Tyson's walk to the ring for the Biggs fight. The HBO team are "anxiously awaiting the arrival of Mike Tyson" and it all goes quiet for a bit (though the crowd are still buzzing). Then, out of the blue, an image of Tyson flashes up on the screen - bare-chested with one belt round his waist and another round his neck. He rushes down a set of stairs, nearly tripping over, and past some vending machines. Intimidating as fornicate.
Thinking of Tyson's greatest fight is giving me a headache right now, but I'm sure I'll reach a conclusion as the Williams fight nears; as I think more about Tyson.
Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 07:40
by KOJOE90
silkov wrote: he broke his jaw in one fight and his collarbone in another I beleive.
Didn't know he had broken his jaw but I knew he had broken his collerbone I think that was against James Tillis, but I'm only 90% sure.
Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 08:57
by Guest
I'd have to say the Lewis fight, just because even 85% of people that knew about boxing thought he'd win, whilst being
back to his prime. And then he got his arse kicked, bad.
It seemed that unfortunately the only people that thought he wouldn't win other then me were the bookies.