BoxRec

Tomasino wrote:

Rexob wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

He wasn't shite you little moron. Why are you stalking me? I've had your little pansy arse on ignore for ages and yet you still stalk me day after day. Sad little wank stain.

Just stick to posting stuff about Kevin Mitchell's knob, that's the extent of your boxing knowledge you stupid little gimp.

You seem to go on about gimps a lot as well, is it some sort of fetish you are into? each to there own I suppose.

Little pansy arse

Honestly what a sad little pecker you are. Tyson fan boys are always the same.

Sad little pecker. You got some OG quotes there my friend.

davie wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

davie wrote:
As in the second best fighter who ever lived?

no

I didn't think so, it did read like that.

I thought to myself, this place will go into melt down if he seriously tries to argue that

I can see the confusion, posting on my phone annoys me and I get lazy. I do think he's historically underrated. I imagine I'd have him in the 35-50 range, right with Roy Jones.

Holyfield's an interesting one. While pretty much at the top of his division nearly from the beginning, his stock seemed to rise and fall. After a spectacular run at Cruiserweight, he moved to Heavy and looked great though his demolition of Douglas. But just when he was supposed to blow out Foreman, Cooper, and Holmes (thought of as two old men and one journeyman), he disappointed and his stock dropped. It rose with the loss to Bowe, dropped again in the rematch with Stewart, and rose again with the Bowe rematch.

But then he loses to Moorer & cites a heart problem and retires for a while. Stock down. He comes back and looks great against a motivated Mercer. Stock goes up. But then he gasses out against Bowe III and is unimpressive against Czyz. Stock down even lower; so low that people fear for Holyfield's life against Tyson. But then he beats Tyson and his stock ascends to an all-time high. He maintains that in the Tyson rematch and the Moorer rematch, but then Vaughn Bean takes him 12 rounds.

I don't think the Lewis fights hurt him or helped him, but the Ruiz fights... David Tua takes out Ruiz early, like 19 seconds early, but Holyfield struggles with him over three fights. Stock back down.

Looking back now I see a couple of patterns. At heavyweight Holyfield seemed to fight at a higher level if his competition was viewed as stiff going in; see Douglas, Bowe, Tyson, Moorer II, Lewis. If the opponent wasn't viewed as a strong threat Holyfield didn't look as impressive - Foreman, Cooper, Holmes, Stewart II, Moorer I, Czyz, Bean, Ruiz. 'Course Foreman & Ruiz proved in subsequent fights that they were tough guys, Holmes is now viewed as a cagy veteran, and Moorer was a decent heavyweight.

Also, I believe Holyfield had a lot of fights against name guys because he was perceived as beatable. I don't recall George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Michael Moorer, and John Ruiz going out of their way to line up a fight with Lennox Lewis.

Tomasino wrote:Mike Tyson seems to get a pass on the steroids issue, just because he says he didn't do it. He's admitted to all sorts of performance inhibiting drugs but he didn't do anything to help his performance

For me its because Holyfield looked like he possibly benefitted from help, whereas I can't say I ever thought Tyson looked like he did. Holyfield was a guy who boxed as an amateur at LHW, turned pro aged 22 and weighed as low as 176lbs. He ended up not only looking like a bodybuilder but was outmuscling much bigger guys at HW, invariably when he was still lighter than them. Putting on weight isn't anything new but he seemed to improve in his mid 30's even though he had been in several hard fights and at one time had looked like his career was over. That turnaround and rejuvenated strength and toughness, for me anyway, looks suspicious. I'm no Holyfield hater, he was a great fighter and one of my favs but I still have my doubts.

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:Mike Tyson seems to get a pass on the steroids issue, just because he says he didn't do it. He's admitted to all sorts of performance inhibiting drugs but he didn't do anything to help his performance

For me its because Holyfield looked like he possibly benefitted from help, whereas I can't say I ever thought Tyson looked like he did. Holyfield was a guy who boxed as an amateur at LHW, turned pro aged 22 and weighed as low as 176lbs. He ended up not only looking like a bodybuilder but was outmuscling much bigger guys at HW, invariably when he was still lighter than them. Putting on weight isn't anything new but he seemed to improve in his mid 30's even though he had been in several hard fights and at one time had looked like his career was over. That turnaround and rejuvenated strength and toughness, for me anyway, looks suspicious. I'm no Holyfield hater, he was a great fighter and one of my favs but I still have my doubts.

I'm sure both were on something. Evander was better when he was lighter IMO. Looser and more fluid, with better stamina. I think he fucked a few cycles up badly and that's why he had so many shite nights against lesser men.

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:Mike Tyson seems to get a pass on the steroids issue, just because he says he didn't do it. He's admitted to all sorts of performance inhibiting drugs but he didn't do anything to help his performance

For me its because Holyfield looked like he possibly benefitted from help, whereas I can't say I ever thought Tyson looked like he did. Holyfield was a guy who boxed as an amateur at LHW, turned pro aged 22 and weighed as low as 176lbs. He ended up not only looking like a bodybuilder but was outmuscling much bigger guys at HW, invariably when he was still lighter than them. Putting on weight isn't anything new but he seemed to improve in his mid 30's even though he had been in several hard fights and at one time had looked like his career was over. That turnaround and rejuvenated strength and toughness, for me anyway, looks suspicious. I'm no Holyfield hater, he was a great fighter and one of my favs but I still have my doubts.

I'm sure both were on something. Evander was better when he was lighter IMO. Looser and more fluid, with better stamina. I think he fucked a few cycles up badly and that's why he had so many shite nights against lesser men.

So you lose your boxing skills when you miss a steroid cycle, what a load of rubbish.

Rexob wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:
For me its because Holyfield looked like he possibly benefitted from help, whereas I can't say I ever thought Tyson looked like he did. Holyfield was a guy who boxed as an amateur at LHW, turned pro aged 22 and weighed as low as 176lbs. He ended up not only looking like a bodybuilder but was outmuscling much bigger guys at HW, invariably when he was still lighter than them. Putting on weight isn't anything new but he seemed to improve in his mid 30's even though he had been in several hard fights and at one time had looked like his career was over. That turnaround and rejuvenated strength and toughness, for me anyway, looks suspicious. I'm no Holyfield hater, he was a great fighter and one of my favs but I still have my doubts.

I'm sure both were on something. Evander was better when he was lighter IMO. Looser and more fluid, with better stamina. I think he fucked a few cycles up badly and that's why he had so many shite nights against lesser men.

So you lose your boxing skills when you miss a steroid cycle, what a load of rubbish.

I assume he means he wasn't as strong or able to fight at the same intensity and that's why he sometimes struggled, not that his skills were diminished.

Controversial wrote:

Rexob wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

I'm sure both were on something. Evander was better when he was lighter IMO. Looser and more fluid, with better stamina. I think he fucked a few cycles up badly and that's why he had so many shite nights against lesser men.

So you lose your boxing skills when you miss a steroid cycle, what a load of rubbish.

I assume he means he wasn't as strong or able to fight at the same intensity and that's why he sometimes struggled, not that his skills were diminished.

he seemed to be muscle bound and had a very poor work rate in some fights. He says himself that his training for other fights didn't go well but "it all came together perfectly for Tyson".

I know guys who have been in awesome shape then when they cycle off gear they go to fornicate. When they are in PCT some guys lose it completely and turn to drugs etc. The trenbolone in particular seems to ruin folk psychologically.

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Rexob wrote:

So you lose your boxing skills when you miss a steroid cycle, what a load of rubbish.

I assume he means he wasn't as strong or able to fight at the same intensity and that's why he sometimes struggled, not that his skills were diminished.

he seemed to be muscle bound and had a very poor work rate in some fights. He says himself that his training for other fights didn't go well but "it all came together perfectly for Tyson".

I know guys who have been in awesome shape then when they cycle off gear they go to eff. When they are in PCT some guys lose it completely and turn to drugs etc. The trenbolone in particular seems to ruin folk psychologically.

I can't say I know too much about PEDs, I assume they not show up in tests?

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:
I assume he means he wasn't as strong or able to fight at the same intensity and that's why he sometimes struggled, not that his skills were diminished.

he seemed to be muscle bound and had a very poor work rate in some fights. He says himself that his training for other fights didn't go well but "it all came together perfectly for Tyson".

I know guys who have been in awesome shape then when they cycle off gear they go to eff. When they are in PCT some guys lose it completely and turn to drugs etc. The trenbolone in particular seems to ruin folk psychologically.

I can't say I know too much about PEDs, I assume they not show up in tests?

The tests around at the time were basically shite. I believe Evan Fields was on HGH, Testosterone and winstrol and never failed a test.

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

he seemed to be muscle bound and had a very poor work rate in some fights. He says himself that his training for other fights didn't go well but "it all came together perfectly for Tyson".

I know guys who have been in awesome shape then when they cycle off gear they go to eff. When they are in PCT some guys lose it completely and turn to drugs etc. The trenbolone in particular seems to ruin folk psychologically.

I can't say I know too much about PEDs, I assume they not show up in tests?

The tests around at the time were basically shite. I believe Evan Fields was on HGH, Testosterone and winstrol and never failed a test.

So do you think its much harder to pass these tests now?

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:
I can't say I know too much about PEDs, I assume they not show up in tests?

The tests around at the time were basically shite. I believe Evan Fields was on HGH, Testosterone and winstrol and never failed a test.

So do you think its much harder to pass these tests now?

If they test the blood instead of urine, yes. For those athletes with big budgets then it will be just as easy. Guys like Victor Conte can devise doping strategies to get around even the most stringent tests. We know for a fact Shane Mosley was on the gear, but he didn't fail any tests....

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

The tests around at the time were basically shite. I believe Evan Fields was on HGH, Testosterone and winstrol and never failed a test.

So do you think its much harder to pass these tests now?

If they test the blood instead of urine, yes. For those athletes with big budgets then it will be just as easy. Guys like Victor Conte can devise doping strategies to get around even the most stringent tests. We know for a fact Shane Mosley was on the gear, but he didn't fail any tests....

So they don't ordinarily test blood, just a urine sample? How do those with big budgets get around blood tests though, surely it's quite a stringent testing procedure?

Controversial wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Controversial wrote:
So do you think its much harder to pass these tests now?

If they test the blood instead of urine, yes. For those athletes with big budgets then it will be just as easy. Guys like Victor Conte can devise doping strategies to get around even the most stringent tests. We know for a fact Shane Mosley was on the gear, but he didn't fail any tests....

So they don't ordinarily test blood, just a urine sample? How do those with big budgets get around blood tests though, surely it's quite a stringent testing procedure?

There are basic, off the shelf substances available to you and I...the testing is based around busting them. These compounds have been available since the 60s and 70s and it's well known how the body behaves when doesed with them.

With a big budget, you can purchase 'designer steroids' and their masking agents, stuff the testers don't even know how to find as yet.and have regular blood tests to keep all your hormone levels in check so nothing is left to chance. Also, the effects of this stuff doesn't just wear off when you are clean. You could take a year or so out of competition and juice up to the gills, PCT off and still keep a lot of your strength gains.

I'm not clued up on EPO at all and do t know anyone that's taken it so can't comment however look a Lance Armstrong...never failed a test in competition. He is the poster boy for 'big budget designer steroid user'. They stay one step ahead of the testing. The testing only evolves by using the blood samples to work out what's being used.

Epo would be the best ped for a boxer(though I'm sure there is a new and approved version). It actually creates more oxygen. Said to help your chin too. Boxing testing is a joke through the commissions. They probably just dumped the piss in a toilet, when they even bothered taking one.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Epo would be the best ped for a boxer(though I'm sure there is a new and approved version). It actually creates more oxygen. Said to help your chin too. Boxing testing is a joke through the commissions. They probably just dumped the piss in a toilet, when they even bothered taking one.

I hadn't heard anything about it helping punch resistance. I agree, it would be no 1 for boxing. Shane was using it.

Tomasino wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Epo would be the best ped for a boxer(though I'm sure there is a new and approved version). It actually creates more oxygen. Said to help your chin too. Boxing testing is a joke through the commissions. They probably just dumped the piss in a toilet, when they even bothered taking one.

I hadn't heard anything about it helping punch resistance. I agree, it would be no 1 for boxing. Shane was using it.

Past the part that being fresher would help your chin, I read an article years ago that went into detail about the actual interaction with the drug heightening sensors that cause the reaction of being knocked out. Something along those lines, interesting read whenever it was.

That was Manny's drug of choice too.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Epo would be the best ped for a boxer(though I'm sure there is a new and approved version). It actually creates more oxygen. Said to help your chin too. Boxing testing is a joke through the commissions. They probably just dumped the piss in a toilet, when they even bothered taking one.

I hadn't heard anything about it helping punch resistance. I agree, it would be no 1 for boxing. Shane was using it.

Past the part that being fresher would help your chin, I read an article years ago that went into detail about the actual interaction with the drug heightening sensors that cause the reaction of being knocked out. Something along those lines, interesting read whenever it was.

That was Manny's drug of choice too.

It sounds pretty great

To be fair its hard to see where a Lewis Foreman fight makes sense. Obviously had Lewis not lost to Macall in 1994 it would have been different, but Lewis wasn't really a player till after he beat Ruddock, Foremans loss to Morrison, in 1993 probably took that fight of the table, and then in 1994 the opposite situation with Lewis losing to Macall taking that fight of the table. Holyfield was unbeaten when Bowe and Foreman fought him. Larry Holmes said he did everything he could to get Lewis in the ring with him.

For me when he SD 15 Qawi in 86 was his unveiling, I just think it took some time for others to catch up.