Johnny Nelson interview

J · Post by J » 20 Jul 2004, 08:44

thats why i like Nard.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Jul 2004, 08:44

I don't condone it at all, but I am being realistic in that worldwide testing for steroid or drug abuse in boxing doesn't happen. Until we have a worldwide body governing the sport, it never will. This is where Fifa and IAAF and I am sure the AIBA (amateur association for boxing for those that may not know), all do commendable work, and protect the reputation of the sport.

Some commissions are strict with their testing, like Nevada, then your have places like Missouri, whose boxing commission doesn't even exist. This is why boxing is such a fornicating state.

I do however though think that the gains to be had for Steroid abuse are less for boxing than other sports. After all Vargas failed a steroid test, but he still got ass-whipped by DLH.

J · Post by J » 20 Jul 2004, 08:50

cheers hadnt thought of it like that, (mainly due to the fact I hadnt thought about the various boards / orgs as opposed to one governing body).
You are right there we need one omnipotent governing body, even if it were to oversee the rest of the orgs.

never gonna happen I suppose.

jeez theres some deep rooted fucked up shit in this sport that needs addressing huh.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 20 Jul 2004, 08:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think that Steroid abuse is probably rife in boxing, really I do, there is no real incentive to ban people as unlike other sports, individuals bring a lot of money into the sport, banning them would lose a lot of people a lot of money. Other sports are not as reliant on big stars. For instance, Golf would survive if Tiger woods was banned. There is a structure and the sport is resilient, unlike boxing which has no structure and isn't.

The american sports system is rife with drugs... the NFL, MLB pretty much turn a blind eye to it... 18 year old college football players are 280lbs of muscle, this doesnt happen cause they ate their weetabix.

The US track and field authority ignored positive tests from Carl Lewis and Jerome Young allowing them to win Olympic god medals.

More so than anywhere else in the world its money that matters not anything else....

Atleast British athletics board seek to punish the cheats

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Jul 2004, 08:57

Even so, there is more stringent testing in track and field than there is in boxing.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 20 Jul 2004, 08:58

Interesting subject, what I can't understand if why El Feroz Vargas is still seen as a hero and role model to the American Mex community, yet was caught red handed cheating in a super fight.

Then someone like sprinter Ben Johnson is seen as on par with Jack the ripper, stripped of everything and left a broken man.

What about Holyfield? Does everyone believe he made heavyweight by lifting weights alone?

And what if he was caught out? Would his wins over Tyson and co become no contests? Doubt it somehow...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Jul 2004, 08:58

I did hear some rumour about Carl Lewis, having said that what did he test positive for, he certainly never looked juiced, very natural looking physique.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 20 Jul 2004, 09:02

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I did hear some rumour about Carl Lewis, having said that what did he test positive for, he certainly never looked juiced, very natural looking physique.

look at Tim Montgomery, skinny mutha fcuker... looks like he is about to get busted in the designer steriod saga....

adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:06

The steroids Roy Jones used can be bought very easily (trying to recall the brand name) and it was unclear to him anyway if they were illegal. It was only the Hall fight where this steroid was found in him, and not that it makes it acceptable, but Hall was on the same shit but had a lot more in him.

Basically, people shouldn't read too much into it. It was one fight, and there was no noteable improvement in comparison to his other performances....he's awesome almost all the time. 8)

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:16

knockout wrote:18 year old college football players are 280lbs of muscle, this doesnt happen cause they ate their weetabix.

Tell me about it. I've tried switching to Asda "wheat bisks" but to no avail.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:17

Isn't it Balco who makes all these products. And yes, the ones Jones Jr had in his system were apparently over the counter products you could buy in health food stores.

From what I can tell, there are a lot of over the counter products which contain traces of substances banned in sports. Look at that scottish downhill skier who bought a nasal spray which he then found out had ephedrine in it, at the last winter olympics....

adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:24

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Isn't it Balco who makes all these products. And yes, the ones Jones Jr had in his system were apparently over the counter products you could buy in health food stores.

From what I can tell, there are a lot of over the counter products which contain traces of substances banned in sports. Look at that scottish downhill skier who bought a nasal spray which he then found out had ephedrine in it, at the last winter olympics....

exactly. Ok this is different because Jones bought it to improve his physical condition, think he was doing it legally. Where as the Skier was buying a hayfever allergy product. But the point is, it only happened once, and un-intentionally.

the product is called Ripped fuel..that ws the name i was struggling to remember.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:27

Drugs are rife in just about any sport these days - at every level.

At my local rugby club the CLUB buys the pills (ephedrine or something?) and they are literally left in the changing room for those that want them, apparently.

The scary thing with boxing is the potential consequences, anything that enables a fighter to perform above his natural capacity may also cause him to ENDURE beyond his natural capacity.

I have often wondered how many boxing tragedies may have been linked to drug use over the years?

I know a former international rugby player who played in the 60's/70's. He told me a story about a tour of South Africa (maybe the last Welsh tour until recent times?) when he took "a white powder" that he was given by another player before a match. He said he just ran around like a headless chicken for most of the match and was not aware of any particular performance improvement.

He went on to work in the CID (amusingly) and reckons it was probably amphetamine he was given.

Given the supposed links with less-desirable sections of society that boxing reputably has - there must have been a few that were "performing under the influence" over the years.

Any tales to tell?

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:28

Its always difficult to know what to think in these situations, when people say they took it by mistake or it was in over the counter tablets...

Are they bullshitting or is it an innocent mistake.... only they now....

Balco were the shit at covering up doping and loads of athletes using there stuff could well get away with it....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:31

This is where a lot of people get nabbed. They don't take steroids, but the supplements they take sometimes have chemicals with either show up as Steroids in the test, or either mimic or are the same as some of the masking agents. Most atheletes get done for the presence of the masking agent rather than the actual substance itself.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:43

jamesmcdonnell wrote:This is where a lot of people get nabbed. They don't take steroids, but the supplements they take sometimes have chemicals with either show up as Steroids in the test, or either mimic or are the same as some of the masking agents. Most atheletes get done for the presence of the masking agent rather than the actual substance itself.

That's essentially the case that all those tennis players (including Horseface Rusedski) put forward isn't it? They were given something (something to do with electrolytes wasn't it?) by the LTA coaches that showed up on tests.

Only problem was that the Lab announced last week that there was no way that the supplements could have produced the failed results!!!

Shame they'd already exhonerated the players!!!!

What about the Tour de France (beautifully named as it starts in Belgium) They are now injecting themselves with other people's highly oxygenated blood so I read!!

As said previously its in all sports at all levels.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 20 Jul 2004, 10:48

EPO is the substance you are referring too, it increases the bodies ability to produce haemaglobin I think, or more blood cells.

The other one is blood doping, you take a pint of blood out, keep it in cold storage and then transfuse it back in, hey presto, an extra pint of blood.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 20 Jul 2004, 11:00

jamesmcdonnell wrote:EPO is the substance you are referring too, it increases the bodies ability to produce haemaglobin I think, or more blood cells.

The other one is blood doping, you take a pint of blood out, keep it in cold storage and then transfuse it back in, hey presto, an extra pint of blood.

IMO there are 2 reasons that cycling is full of drugs:

1. the authorities MAKE them take drugs because that is the only way to make an interesting story about cycling.

2. the cyclists take them to amuse themselves during what has to be the most tedious event in history.

I think they should have a drug cheats only race (although that is pretty much the Tour de France) and we could watch when all their hearts burst or heads pop off etc.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 20 Jul 2004, 15:20

Some of the opinions I've endured on this thread are the biggest load of shit I've ever read on what is an otherwise excellent forum.

Adam - re RJJ 'Oh, it was only one fight, don't read too much into it, it was by accident'. Sorry and I'm rarely so bold but people who carry this attitude around are why drugs are allowed to remain prevalent in sport. The motherfucker is a multi-millionaire and he can't HIRE someone to tell him exactly what is in a supplement?

Just because he can buy it legally makes fornicate all difference. I can take 'Ripped Fuel' as much as I like as my job allows me to. His doesn't. You can buy Vicks Sinex legally. But not use it if you are a competing Olympic skier, as was aforementioned.

Yes, RJJ is still a great but it definitely brings his achievements into question. How do we know it was only one fight? We didn't find out about this one until ages after! For what it's worth, I still think he's an all-time great.

Lugh - as much as I would like to think you are joking, I suspect you are being serious about cycling. I completely agree that it is a sport riddled with drugs but, IMO, if you can't respect the Tour as an event in itself then what exactly do you regard as being a testing event? Those bastards cycle thousands of miles over three weeks and, as in boxing, many have died doing their sport (drugs have had an impact on these figures too).

It's undoubtedly one of the most gruelling and compelling events in world sport. As for it starting in Belgium, it often starts in several places Europe wide and the hosts regard it as an honour.

But they are definitely the most mental drugs takers in all of sport. A couple of years ago, a guinea pig group of cyclists were taking a radical new treatment designed for cancer patients that hadn't even been fully tested.

adamiw · Post by **adamiw** » 20 Jul 2004, 15:34

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Adam - re RJJ 'Oh, it was only one fight, don't read too much into it, it was by accident'. Sorry and I'm rarely so bold but people who carry this attitude around are why drugs are allowed to remain prevalent in sport. The motherfucker is a multi-millionaire and he can't HIRE someone to tell him exactly what is in a supplement?

Just because he can buy it legally makes fornicate all difference. I can take 'Ripped Fuel' as much as I like as my job allows me to. His doesn't. You can buy Vicks Sinex legally. But not use it if you are a competing Olympic skier, as was aforementioned.

Yes, RJJ is still a great but it definitely brings his achievements into question. How do we know it was only one fight? We didn't find out about this one until ages after! For what it's worth, I still think he's an all-time great.

Hey, i'm not saying Roy didn't make a mistake...and i'm not saying it isn't his fault. Of course i is, and all athletes these days should no what is inside the medical supplements that ethy take. My points is that it wasn't inetional. He didn't think 'i'm not doing well, i'll buy some drugs'. It was ignorance on his part for not doing his homework on this 'ripped fuel'..but i have no reason to believe he took it deliberately....why would he?

I dont think it affects his greatness, because the fight wasn't a significant one. Also, from what i have read on other forums, from people who know about building your body, ripped fuel isn't actually classed as a 'steroid' and it's main use is to add definition to the body. In terms of 'performance enhancing'..it does very little.

I just think the whole thing got blown out of all proportion.

theguru · Post by **theguru** » 20 Jul 2004, 18:43

What a nieve bunch

J · Post by J » 21 Jul 2004, 04:32

theguru wrote:What a nieve bunch

think its more a case of people see what they want to see.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 21 Jul 2004, 04:47

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Lugh - as much as I would like to think you are joking, I suspect you are being serious about cycling. I completely agree that it is a sport riddled with drugs but, IMO, if you can't respect the Tour as an event in itself then what exactly do you regard as being a testing event? Those bastards cycle thousands of miles over three weeks and, as in boxing, many have died doing their sport (drugs have had an impact on these figures too).

It's undoubtedly one of the most gruelling and compelling events in world sport. As for it starting in Belgium, it often starts in several places Europe wide and the hosts regard it as an honour.

But they are definitely the most mental drugs takers in all of sport. A couple of years ago, a guinea pig group of cyclists were taking a radical new treatment designed for cancer patients that hadn't even been fully tested.

You are tying yourself in knots.

Chastise everyone for not taking the issues seriously enough then ask me how I can't respect the event?

It is virtually a testing ground for pharmaceuticals firms - how many other sports have Team Chemist's for Christ's sake?????

Having read a number of articles about the event (one in the Observer springs to mind) about the drug use that has DOMINATED the sport over then years - starting 50+ years ago when the drug of choice was cocaine mixed with brandy.

The reason that significant numbers have literally just keeled over and died mid-race is not JUST the gruelling nature of the race but also the amount of heavy duty pharmaceuticals in their systems.

Now they are pioneering gene therapy I read as a new way to CHEAT - what an enthralling event!

Like I said - IMO the most interesting thing about the sport is the extreme lengths the competitors will go to to CHEAT themselves, their supporters and their sport.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 21 Jul 2004, 06:04

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Some of the opinions I've endured on this thread are the biggest load of shit I've ever read on what is an otherwise excellent forum.

Adam - re RJJ 'Oh, it was only one fight, don't read too much into it, it was by accident'. Sorry and I'm rarely so bold but people who carry this attitude around are why drugs are allowed to remain prevalent in sport. The motherfucker is a multi-millionaire and he can't HIRE someone to tell him exactly what is in a supplement?

Just because he can buy it legally makes fornicate all difference. I can take 'Ripped Fuel' as much as I like as my job allows me to. His doesn't. You can buy Vicks Sinex legally. But not use it if you are a competing Olympic skier, as was aforementioned.

Yes, RJJ is still a great but it definitely brings his achievements into question. How do we know it was only one fight? We didn't find out about this one until ages after! For what it's worth, I still think he's an all-time great.

Lugh - as much as I would like to think you are joking, I suspect you are being serious about cycling. I completely agree that it is a sport riddled with drugs but, IMO, if you can't respect the Tour as an event in itself then what exactly do you regard as being a testing event? Those bastards cycle thousands of miles over three weeks and, as in boxing, many have died doing their sport (drugs have had an impact on these figures too).

It's undoubtedly one of the most gruelling and compelling events in world sport. As for it starting in Belgium, it often starts in several places Europe wide and the hosts regard it as an honour.

But they are definitely the most mental drugs takers in all of sport. A couple of years ago, a guinea pig group of cyclists were taking a radical new treatment designed for cancer patients that hadn't even been fully tested.

Ian to be honest mate, I find it hard to have an opinion either way without being in full possession of the facts, it's such a complex area too, there is in my mind a big difference between ingesting something which contains a trace of a banned substance, and jacking yourself full of steroids on a regular basis.

My guess is that the people who often get caught are not the serial cheats, they would be taking the right masking agents to prevent getting caught.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 21 Jul 2004, 06:42

Lugh - "You are tying yourself in knots.

Chastise everyone for not taking the issues seriously enough then ask me how I can't respect the event?"

I'm not tying myself in knots at all. I've totally concurred with you regarding the drugs if you read my post again.

What I mean by respecting the event as I think I said, was the event 'in itself' - as in the Tour as a RACE is a fornicating unbelievable challenge. I find it anything but boring, yet it's all about taste.

And you didn't need to try and educate me Steve Bunce-style regarding cycling death rates being affected by drugs. I'd already said that too.

Maybe I like cycling for the same reasons I like boxing. A test of human endurance with incredible triumph and tragedy full of contradictions.

A journalist called cycling 'a dirty, backstreet, crack whore of a sport'. He's probably right regarding the teams, cheats, etc. But in its purest form, it is fantastic.

James - of course, you are right about it being a horribly complex issue and I understand the distinctions you make about deliberate and accidental ingestion. But these athletes should never be in a position where they are accidentally taking stuff.

I agree with guru and J...there is a lot of naivety about. I find it incredible for it to be argued that the RJJ positive drug test was 'blown out of all proportion'. Surely the opposite is true...it was swept under the carpet and despite the best efforts of some, there it remains.