BoxRec

He never ducked the big fights, he didn't have to. For his first world title fight he stops an undefeated pound for pound legend in the last minute of the 15th round.

MightyWarrior wrote:He never ducked the big fights, he didn't have to. For his first world title fight he stops an undefeated pound for pound legend in the last minute of the 15th round.

. Wilfredo Benitez the youngest world champion in history who won the world title at only 17 years old, who himself beat a legend to win his world title.

jonp wrote:

magwitch wrote:Was he 3 years out the ring when he took on and extended MM Hagler over 15?......surely that’s unheard of!

12

12 years out the ring? He's gets better and better!

Terminator666 wrote:I liked him up to the point he made lalonde fight at 168 for two seperate weight division titles in one fight.
In fact I think that was pretty much the start of the same shambles we still have today

True, they all had to fight Leonard's terms. Before DLH. Before PBF.

He was an awesome talent, great boxer and terrific handicapper.

Hearns rematch, for the super middleweight title, had to take place at something like 162. at 168 Hearns may have won pretty comfortably as he would certainly carry the higher weight better.

Hagler had to agree to a 12 round fight, which really hurt Marvin's chances. Didn't help Halger fought a strategically poor first six rounds either. Not sure Leonard could've lasted the 15 with even that slowed down Hagler.

What kind of helps is a) these were great fights and great events. It never hurt these fights as a spectacle. And, b) Ray didn't do this at his 147-154-pound prime, he did it into his 30s when he would've been at a genuine weight disadvantage.

Unlike "Cinnamon."

Autobarn wrote:

Terminator666 wrote:I liked him up to the point he made lalonde fight at 168 for two seperate weight division titles in one fight.
In fact I think that was pretty much the start of the same shambles we still have today

True, they all had to fight Leonard's terms. Before DLH. Before PBF.

He was an awesome talent, great boxer and terrific handicapper.

Hearns rematch, for the super middleweight title, had to take place at something like 162. at 168 Hearns may have won pretty comfortably as he would certainly carry the higher weight better.

Hagler had to agree to a 12 round fight, which really hurt Marvin's chances. Didn't help Halger fought a strategically poor first six rounds either. Not sure Leonard could've lasted the 15 with even that slowed down Hagler.

What kind of helps is a) these were great fights and great events. It never hurt these fights as a spectacle. And, b) Ray didn't do this at his 147-154-pound prime, he did it into his 30s when he would've been at a genuine weight disadvantage.

Unlike "Cinnamon."

People go on too much about the 12 rounds and if it had been 15, Hagler would have won, but it is all guess work, Leonard has come on strong in 15 round fights before stopping great fighters, the facts are that Leonard had not fought for 3 years and had 1 fight in about 5 years, was much smaller then Hagler in the ring and had gone through an operation for a detached retina, can you imagine if he had not had them problems coming into the fight ? Yes he did get tired by about the 8th round, but got his second wind, Hagler was tired himself or else he would have come on stronger in the later rounds, I watched the fight live at the cinema and about half the fans were for Hagler half were for Leonard, both sets shouting for their man, but what I noticed was that the Hagler fans went quite towards the end excepting that Leonard had won, while the Leonard fans went crazy and some people still think Hagler won, come on ? Just Plodding forward does not win you fights.

15 round fights had ceased in WBC land by 1987, so Leonard v Hagler could not have been made over 15 rounds, unless I am missing something?

I think even over 15 Leonard would have won. The one thing which I think would have had a major impact was a smaller ring, but more fool Hagler, he agreed to the 12 round distance, and the larger ring.

In a smaller ring, Hagler's pressure would have taken it's toll, and he'd probably have just nicked it. I doubt he'd have stopped Leonard, nobody stopped leonard until he was well and truly past his prime.

Syntax Error wrote:15 round fights had ceased in WBC land by 1987, so Leonard v Hagler could not have been made over 15 rounds, unless I am missing something?

Hagler held both the WBA and WBC titles. WBC fights had just moved to 12 rounds, as you say, but WBA ones were still 15, so essentially they had the choice.

olij999 wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:15 round fights had ceased in WBC land by 1987, so Leonard v Hagler could not have been made over 15 rounds, unless I am missing something?

Hagler held both the WBA and WBC titles. WBC fights had just moved to 12 rounds, as you say, but WBA ones were still 15, so essentially they had the choice.

Thanks for that.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think even over 15 Leonard would have won. The one thing which I think would have had a major impact was a smaller ring, but more fool Hagler, he agreed to the 12 round distance, and the larger ring.

In a smaller ring, Hagler's pressure would have taken it's toll, and he'd probably have just nicked it. I doubt he'd have stopped Leonard, nobody stopped leonard until he was well and truly past his prime.

Hagler was more obsessed with the payday & proving he was a bigger star than Leonard: Sugar was more concerned with the important things & that's how Leonard knew he had Marvin.

He didn't have Marvin, he nicked a very tight decision which could have gone either way and probably got it because of his superstar status. Not that Marvin wasn't a superstar, SRL had more influence

dr_devious wrote:He didn't have Marvin, he nicked a very tight decision which could have gone either way and probably got it because of his superstar status. Not that Marvin wasn't a superstar, SRL had more influence

Leonard win that fight. Close maybe.

Leonard outwitted him in the negotiations, and marvin chased they payday foolishly agreeing to the stipulatons.

olij999 wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:15 round fights had ceased in WBC land by 1987, so Leonard v Hagler could not have been made over 15 rounds, unless I am missing something?

Hagler held both the WBA and WBC titles. WBC fights had just moved to 12 rounds, as you say, but WBA ones were still 15, so essentially they had the choice.

He also held the IBF title

On this 15 / 12 round thing, I am pretty sure the Hagler v Hearns fight was also a 12 rounder, ditto the Mugabi fight so it is not really fair to pull SRL up over this. A little bit of retrospective hater angle on this one by the reporters who made a big deal out of it to justify their calling of the fight wrong with their predications that SRL would be destroyed. They highlighted it but ignored that Hagler was already fighting 12 rounders

Some people on here ignore all the disadvantages Leonard had against Hagler. If Leonard had totally got the better of the negotiations, why on earth did he not get the fight at catch weight ? You would have thought this would have been the biggest advantagehe could get, then the size of the ring, not that the size of the ring made that much difference, as Leonard stood in front of Hagler a lot, slipping and sliding and using his great footwork for angles, can you imagine if Hagler had to boil down to 11 stone ? The truth of the matter is that fans of Hagler thought he would walk through the smaller Leonard, who had been out for long and who hated southpaws, so did the the boxing experts, so after he lost, they had to make excuses, the 15 round crap, being the worst excuse.

Anzi wrote:

Autobarn wrote:

Terminator666 wrote:I liked him up to the point he made lalonde fight at 168 for two seperate weight division titles in one fight.
In fact I think that was pretty much the start of the same shambles we still have today

True, they all had to fight Leonard's terms. Before DLH. Before PBF.

He was an awesome talent, great boxer and terrific handicapper.

Hearns rematch, for the super middleweight title, had to take place at something like 162. at 168 Hearns may have won pretty comfortably as he would certainly carry the higher weight better.

Hagler had to agree to a 12 round fight, which really hurt Marvin's chances. Didn't help Halger fought a strategically poor first six rounds either. Not sure Leonard could've lasted the 15 with even that slowed down Hagler.

What kind of helps is a) these were great fights and great events. It never hurt these fights as a spectacle. And, b) Ray didn't do this at his 147-154-pound prime, he did it into his 30s when he would've been at a genuine weight disadvantage.

Unlike "Cinnamon."

People go on too much about the 12 rounds and if it had been 15, Hagler would have won, but it is all guess work, Leonard has come on strong in 15 round fights before stopping great fighters, the facts are that Leonard had not fought for 3 years and had 1 fight in about 5 years, was much smaller then Hagler in the ring and had gone through an operation for a detached retina, can you imagine if he had not had them problems coming into the fight ? Yes he did get tired by about the 8th round, but got his second wind, Hagler was tired himself or else he would have come on stronger in the later rounds, I watched the fight live at the cinema and about half the fans were for Hagler half were for Leonard, both sets shouting for their man, but what I noticed was that the Hagler fans went quite towards the end excepting that Leonard had won, while the Leonard fans went crazy and some people still think Hagler won, come on ? Just Plodding forward does not win you fights.

oh, I had SRL winning. Inspired performance, stole it over 12 though. Doubt SRL could've sustained it over 15 however, and surely the reason 12 rounds was agreed in the contract. They all were so desperate to face the star that they'd agree to the terms that stacked things in Leonard's favour.

Hagler slowed down and took a lot of punishment versus Hearns and Mugabi.

Credit to Leonard in his ability to box so sharply after the layoff, no doubt.

Hagler, with all his experience, made a terrible mistake being so casual in the first half of the fight.

I can't remember what the odds of Leonard winning that fight were at the time. I do remember though as said above that Hagler was a monster who would walk through Leonard. I'm guessing the odds on a Leonard win would have been pretty good.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think even over 15 Leonard would have won. The one thing which I think would have had a major impact was a smaller ring, but more fool Hagler, he agreed to the 12 round distance, and the larger ring.

In a smaller ring, Hagler's pressure would have taken it's toll, and he'd probably have just nicked it. I doubt he'd have stopped Leonard, nobody stopped leonard until he was well and truly past his prime.

I actually forgot that, the ring size. It was a big 'un and SRL used lots of movement, certainly.

Over 15 with the bigger ring I'd go for Hagler because the fight had settled around 10-12, there were punishing exchanges that favoured Hagler - Leonard's flashy shots were just bouncing off - and I think three more rounds and he'd have just pulled away.

Hagler did fight a quite poor fight, that night. Terrible first half and far too casual about it. His reflexes were on the way out and to reiterate, he took a lot of punishing shots in his previous two fights. That 70-whatever fight career was catching up with him.

Syntax Error wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think even over 15 Leonard would have won. The one thing which I think would have had a major impact was a smaller ring, but more fool Hagler, he agreed to the 12 round distance, and the larger ring.

In a smaller ring, Hagler's pressure would have taken it's toll, and he'd probably have just nicked it. I doubt he'd have stopped Leonard, nobody stopped leonard until he was well and truly past his prime.

Hagler was more obsessed with the payday & proving he was a bigger star than Leonard: Sugar was more concerned with the important things & that's how Leonard knew he had Marvin.

Interesting point as Marvin seemed to have little strategy that night.

Autobarn wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think even over 15 Leonard would have won. The one thing which I think would have had a major impact was a smaller ring, but more fool Hagler, he agreed to the 12 round distance, and the larger ring.

In a smaller ring, Hagler's pressure would have taken it's toll, and he'd probably have just nicked it. I doubt he'd have stopped Leonard, nobody stopped leonard until he was well and truly past his prime.

Hagler was more obsessed with the payday & proving he was a bigger star than Leonard: Sugar was more concerned with the important things & that's how Leonard knew he had Marvin.

Interesting point as Marvin seemed to have little strategy that night.

I always felt that A) Hagler wanted to prove that he could box with Ray & B) he thought he could stop Ray whenever he turn up the pressure (or that Leonard would tire down the stretch).

He wasn't the normal Hagler that night.

Autobarn wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think even over 15 Leonard would have won. The one thing which I think would have had a major impact was a smaller ring, but more fool Hagler, he agreed to the 12 round distance, and the larger ring.

In a smaller ring, Hagler's pressure would have taken it's toll, and he'd probably have just nicked it. I doubt he'd have stopped Leonard, nobody stopped leonard until he was well and truly past his prime.

Hagler was more obsessed with the payday & proving he was a bigger star than Leonard: Sugar was more concerned with the important things & that's how Leonard knew he had Marvin.

Interesting point as Marvin seemed to have little strategy that night.

Marvin was very arrogant that night & peed away the fight as a result of his arrogance.

He didn't believe that an ageing (albeit younger than himself), ring rusty welterweight could beat him & he fought like it too.

Leonard won that fight fair and square. Yes it was close and could of gone either way. But in i think the 9th round or so hagler hurt leonard. And leonard came back with ridiculous little flurries. He didnt win the round but those crazy little flurries blunted haglers offense and ray was home free.

I think the Mugabi fight did for Hagler. Far into a hard career, fighting out of doors. You could see the fighters' breaths. Hagler must have been very cold and stiff, and started very slowly versus a very fired up and sharp, fresh guy - who hit him with many hard shots. Hagler ground him down but his timing and balance were poor during a long and punishing night, something SRL was able to take advantage of. Leonard was able to make one asset of his layoff, he still had plenty to give (his 1983 retirement had cut a great career well short) whereas Hagler's arms and legs looked old and heavy.

Another thing, the big occasion did seem to get to Hagler. He did not handle the stage well and also in his fight against Duran his approach was strangely subdued and low key.

Terminator666 wrote:I liked him up to the point he made lalonde fight at 168 for two seperate weight division titles in one fight.
In fact I think that was pretty much the start of the same shambles we still have today

Very good point

fanman wrote:Leonard won that fight fair and square. Yes it was close and could of gone either way. But in i think the 9th round or so hagler hurt leonard. And leonard came back with ridiculous little flurries. He didnt win the round but those crazy little flurries blunted haglers offense and ray was home free.

The 9th round was great, Leonard rattled his big bald noggin all over the shop.

Autobarn wrote:I think the Mugabi fight did for Hagler. Far into a hard career, fighting out of doors. You could see the fighters' breaths. Hagler must have been very cold and stiff, and started very slowly versus a very fired up and sharp, fresh guy - who hit him with many hard shots. Hagler ground him down but his timing and balance were poor during a long and punishing night, something SRL was able to take advantage of. Leonard was able to make one asset of his layoff, he still had plenty to give (his 1983 retirement had cut a great career well short) whereas Hagler's arms and legs looked old and heavy.

Another thing, the big occasion did seem to get to Hagler. He did not handle the stage well and also in his fight against Duran his approach was strangely subdued and low key.

To be sure, Hagler was shopworn, but he was still Hagler, and Leonard was taking a huge gamble.