BoxRec

SteveO wrote:

tobyh5 wrote:The CNN had someone say that he was the first four-time heavyweight champion and so it went on.

Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks

That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.

Ricky_ wrote:

CaptainSpacerod wrote:

Ricky_ wrote:I don't think largely irrelevant details such as the dates of fights really matter much in all honesty, with the thousands of colums and blogs there are bound to be some and you're wasting your time getting annoyed by it.

I did find David Haye's interview on Sky a little strange though. He spoke about Ali being his idol and Ali's influence being the very reason he became a boxer... Yet he wore a "Clay vs Liston" t-shirt and said he had named his son "Cassius", when there wasn't much things that offended Ali more than being called by his previous name.

Clay was his name whether he liked it or not. Some invented islamic name given to him by a headcase doesn't change that fact.

Clay wasn't his name. It was the name of his family's slave masters.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

SteveO wrote:

tobyh5 wrote:The CNN had someone say that he was the first four-time heavyweight champion and so it went on.

Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks

That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.

You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

SteveO wrote: Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks

That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.

You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.

Ali was way way way past his best in the late 70's after the thriller in Manilla he was a shadow of his former self and he was probably suffering from Parkinson syndrome when he beat Spinks so I for one will all ways call him the 3 time Heavyweight Champ he did earn it Holmes was a Great fighter but just not in Ali league.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.

You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.

Ali was way way way past his best in the late 70's after the thriller in Manilla he was a shadow of his former self and he was probably suffering from Parkinson syndrome when he beat Spinks so I for one will all ways call him the 3 time Heavyweight Champ he did earn it Holmes was a Great fighter but just not in Ali league.

Holmes was a better all around fighter than Ali... He went 48-0... 20 straight Title Defenses... Beat Ray Mercer at 42... fought great Heavyweight Title Challenges at ages 43 and 45 versus Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall... better jab.. better defense.. ducked and slipped punches better.. better body attack.. more aggressive.. grabbed and held a lot less than Ali.. That's why Ali didn't want to fight him and fought Leon Spinks, 6-0-1.

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Kalan wrote:
You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.

Ali was way way way past his best in the late 70's after the thriller in Manilla he was a shadow of his former self and he was probably suffering from Parkinson syndrome when he beat Spinks so I for one will all ways call him the 3 time Heavyweight Champ he did earn it Holmes was a Great fighter but just not in Ali league.

Holmes was a better all around fighter than Ali... He went 48-0... 20 straight Title Defenses... Beat Ray Mercer at 42... fought great Heavyweight Title Challenges at ages 43 and 45 versus Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall... better jab.. better defense.. ducked and slipped punches better.. better body attack.. more aggressive.. grabbed and held a lot less than Ali.. That's why Ali didn't want to fight him and fought Leon Spinks, 6-0-1.

Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up

Kalan wrote:. But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes...

And right there ladies and gents is a symbol of the bs and deplorable nature of the modern world and social media / forums which gives any twat the place to be heard.

Ali would not have been so great if he did the identical things today that he did in the 60's and 70s. Beat Frazer in the thriller in manilla. That night boxrec has posts saying he was ducking Norton, it was avoiding, Frazier is a bum, overrated, past it, that Frazier quit, debates on that Ali looked fooked himself at the end of the 14th.

Rumble in the Jungle? Foreman just fought stupid, would not tire next time, will smash Ali in a rematch, Foreman harmed by the whole cut eye and having stay in the country thing, Foreman probably drugged.

No one would be so great today as arseholes on their keyboards cannot give credit and the modern human has a tendency to look for the negative, search for the opening to downplay any accomplishment

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

SteveO wrote: Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks

That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.

You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.

Spinks still had the WBA belt

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

SteveO wrote: Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks

That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.

You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.

Ali had been stripped of the WBA title on September 14th 1964 because he had agreed to a rematch with Liston.
On March 5th 1965 Ernie Terrell beat Eddie Machen for the vacant WBA title.
February 6th 1967 Ali regained the WBA title from Terrell in the 'What's My Name' fight.
Therefore: Ali won the WBA title four times!

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up

I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

CaptainSpacerod wrote:

Ricky_ wrote:

CaptainSpacerod wrote:
Clay was his name whether he liked it or not. Some invented islamic name given to him by a headcase doesn't change that fact.

Clay wasn't his name. It was the name of his family's slave masters.

Technically I don't think you're right. Slavemasters may have given his ancestors that name but generations of his family had I presume lived quite happily with that name after Emancipation which in my book makes it his name. I don't think many black people in America followed suit and changed their name as the civil rights movement took it's course.

It's nothing to do with you though is it, if any man wants to change his name, he has a legal right to do so, just as he has the right to associate himself with any political or religious persuasion of his choice.

If you don't like it, tough shite, his name at his death was Muhammad Ali. End of.

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up

I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

CaptainSpacerod wrote:

Ricky_ wrote:

Clay wasn't his name. It was the name of his family's slave masters.

Technically I don't think you're right. Slavemasters may have given his ancestors that name but generations of his family had I presume lived quite happily with that name after Emancipation which in my book makes it his name. I don't think many black people in America followed suit and changed their name as the civil rights movement took it's course.

It's nothing to do with you though is it, if any man wants to change his name, he has a legal right to do so, just as he has the right to associate himself with any political or religious persuasion of his choice.

If you don't like it, tough shite, his name at his death was Muhammad Ali. End of.

Oooh get you James ! Calm down man,

In the same way that legally Ali was his name from the mid 60s onwards, Clay was legally his name before then. I presume his birth was registered in the name Cassius Clay ergo that was his name.

It may be nothing to do with me, or you for that matter, but it's a fact - tough shite

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Kalan wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up

I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

Ali would've kicked Tyson's ass. He could've taken Tyson's shots, and outboxed him through most rounds, and ultimately his greater will and determination would've broken Tyson down. Tyson never was able to deal with skilled opponents who weren't shaking in their boots at the sight of him. Tyson would win about 4 or 5 rounds I figure, but Ali would stop him late in the fight.

gilgamesh wrote:

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

Ali would've kicked Tyson's ass. He could've taken Tyson's shots, and outboxed him through most rounds, and ultimately his greater will and determination would've broken Tyson down. Tyson never was able to deal with skilled opponents who weren't shaking in their boots at the sight of him. Tyson would win about 4 or 5 rounds I figure, but Ali would stop him late in the fight.

Ali is all wrong for Tyson. He had possibly the greatest chin ever. Tyson lost every big fight he had and the bully boy act only got him so far, he just didn't have the mentality or heart for the concentration to go 12 or 15, adapting his tactics and finding plan B. I think Ali would have trashtalked him into biting jim after he realised he wasn't getting the ko.

CaptainSpacerod wrote:

Ricky_ wrote:I don't think largely irrelevant details such as the dates of fights really matter much in all honesty, with the thousands of colums and blogs there are bound to be some and you're wasting your time getting annoyed by it.

I did find David Haye's interview on Sky a little strange though. He spoke about Ali being his idol and Ali's influence being the very reason he became a boxer... Yet he wore a "Clay vs Liston" t-shirt and said he had named his son "Cassius", when there wasn't much things that offended Ali more than being called by his previous name.

Clay was his name whether he liked it or not. Some invented islamic name given to him by a headcase doesn't change that fact.

It's not for anyone else to tell Ali what he should be called.

He wanted to be called Muhammad Ali & that's what folk should call him.

He wasn't the first person to change his name & he wasn't the last either.

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

When did Ali crack?

He lost fights, that's for sure, but not because he cracked; it was because the guys he fought were better than him on that day, after giving it his all.

His last 2 defeats should not really count as he should never have been in a boxing ring in 1980 nor 1981.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

When did Ali crack?

He lost fights, that's for sure, but not because he cracked; it was because the guys he fought were better than him on that day, aftre giving it his all.

His last 2 defeats should not really count as he should never have been in a boxing ring in 1980 nor 1981.

I think Kalan smokes crack.

Ricky_ wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:
I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

When did Ali crack?

He lost fights, that's for sure, but not because he cracked; it was because the guys he fought were better than him on that day, aftre giving it his all.

His last 2 defeats should not really count as he should never have been in a boxing ring in 1980 nor 1981.

I think Kalan smokes crack.

I think people should stop replying to his drivel.

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

OK

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy...

Please list the names of the fighters you think Ali cracked against. Can't wait to read them.

Like a Boss wrote:

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy...

Please list the names of the fighters you think Ali cracked against. Can't wait to read them.

Yeah, that's right - Ali, way past his prime, suffering from the early stages of Parkinson's was stopped on his feet against both Holmes and Berbick.

The fights he did lose in his prime, to Frazier, and Norton, were close 15 round affairs, one of which he suffered a broken jaw, the other he climbed off the canvas. His biggest wins were in outlasting Frazier, totally outclassing the fearsome Liston, and breaking the heart of Foreman, after enduring a hellacious beating. Yeah, Ali sure was mentally weak wasn't he.

Tyson never managed to turn around a fight where he wasn't the top dog. Every one of his losses resulted from someone taking the upper hand, and relentlessly beating him down. He was a great on top fighter, but once it went against him, he always lost. You can argue these fights were past his prime, but in his prime he never faced anyone as highly regarded as a prime Liston, Frazier or Foreman.

Kalan, either he's a brilliant troll, or seriously fkkin stupid.

Bully Mickey wouldn't surmount his 18cm reach/13cm height disadvantage to Ali.
He would get picked off all night and discouraged, possibly stopped in the championship rounds.

Mickey would have a shot if Ali couldn't take a punch, but it was precisely his forte.

Fighting tall + inhumane stamina + great chin + will to win + master strategist + good punch + great timing + great precision = no chance for Tyson.

Kalan wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.

Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.

I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.

Tyson destroys Ali in a drinking contest. Tyson also destroys Ali in # of women he''s been with, and in doing drugs. Not saying those are bad things but Tyson was very good at them.

The Tyson of the 1980s would have been crying and quitting in his corner after a few rounds of vintage 1960s to mid 1970s Ali.