BoxRec

Power-somewhat even, although foreman had more thud behind each individual shot. Liston had a little bit more "snap" and put his punches together better. As a side note, liston was a better finisher. Foreman was very wild when going for kayos and basically just bludgeoned his victims to death through sheer volume.

Jab-liston, although old Foreman's jab was
definitely on par.

Uppercuts-Foreman's had a little bit more pop and leverage behind them, but if either landed, either guy would be in trouble.

Right cross-Foreman no doubt.

Hook-liston. Foreman's hooks were very telegraphed.

Body shots-even.

Physical strength-young Foreman had a slight advantage and could smother liston with his height but nobody's getting shoved around like a doll. It's pretty close. Old foreman was basically an oak tree nobody's beating him in a contest of strength. In the phone booth I would say liston would land more frequently due to superior skill, body punching, and timing. In a clinch or on the ropes, it's all Foreman but again liston was as strong as a bull and it wouldn't be completely one sided. More often then not, foreman just shoves him away and avoids a close range fight but that leads to...

Reach-liston surprisingly. And if Foreman shoves liston back I have a bad feeling liston would start to catch on and time him with a one two or lead on the break. It could get very ugly as liston could set up shots well when he wanted to. Could be an early night for Liston as Foreman wouldn't see it coming.

Chin-I wanna say foreman, probably a toss up. Both guys had only 1 k loss (liston was old af fighting a stable mate that knew all his habits. Foreman gassed himself out against one of the greatest of all time). However Foreman got off the floor to win against lyle so he has the slight edge in overall toughness and damage soak.

Skill-liston, although old foreman was no slouch and would give liston all kinds of trouble.

Stamina-wow, another one that goes to liston. Old foreman is, again, a different story.

Speed-won't matter in a fight like this lol.

My predictions:

motovated prime Liston by k.o within 8 rounds or UD decision over young foreman 70% of the time. Too many advantages, he has reach, skill, timing, and can hang with foreman in the power and chin department. As long as liston makes it a "boxing" match or a back and forth tug of war in the trenches he will either stop foreman or win a competitive but clear decision a la mayweather V cotto.

Young Foreman can pretty much only win if he paces himself well and fights at mid range setting up right crosses and hooks like in the norton fight, pawing with his jab and shoving him to keep listpn from setting up his jab or getting his rhythm or combos off. With this strategy he could potentially stop liston mid rounds. Or, option 2, he just says screw it and turns it into a brawl like the lyle fight where he most likely wins more often than not but even then liston might turn things around with his own freakish power.

Old foreman either wins by UD or stops liston late in a chaotic, brutal chess match.

[quote="Cygnus475]My predictions: motovated prime Liston by k.o within 8 rounds or UD decision over young foreman 70% of the time ... Young Foreman can pretty much only win if he paces himself well and fights at mid range setting up right crosses and hooks like in the norton fight[/quote]

You're not making a prediction. Predictions are about future events. You're speculating about a fantasy fight. You first scenario is pretty much what would have happened.. But Foreman couldn't fight Liston like he did Lyle or Norton because they're completely different fighters. Those guys didn't have excellent jabs.. In the mid to late 50's Liston had a very quick and deft jab that allowed him to control fights.. If Liston had his best game going he would have beaten Foreman..

But a great jab needs to be tuned up and sharp.. Young had a brilliant jab for Foreman, but lost 3 of his next 4 fights. Without his jab going really well, Young had no other excellent weapons to win a fight with... In the 3 years leading up to his 1st Ali fight Liston saw only 3 partial rounds of ring action ... and I don't think that's enough to keep a top jab real sharp... I was pretty confident Ali would beat him.

Kalan wrote:[quote="Cygnus475]My predictions: motovated prime Liston by k.o within 8 rounds or UD decision over young foreman 70% of the time ... Young Foreman can pretty much only win if he paces himself well and fights at mid range setting up right crosses and hooks like in the norton fight

You're not making a prediction. Predictions are about future events. You're speculating about a fantasy fight. You first scenario is pretty much what would have happened.. But Foreman couldn't fight Liston like he did Lyle or Norton because they're completely different fighters. Those guys didn't have excellent jabs.. In the mid to late 50's Liston had a very quick and deft jab that allowed him to control fights.. If Liston had his best game going he would have beaten Foreman..

But a great jab needs to be tuned up and sharp.. Young had a brilliant jab for Foreman, but lost 3 of his next 4 fights. Without his jab going really well, Young had no other excellent weapons to win a fight with... In the 3 years leading up to his 1st Ali fight Liston saw only 3 partial rounds of ring action ... and I don't think that's enough to keep a top jab real sharp... I was pretty confident Ali would beat him.[/quote][/quote]


Actually I think "predicting the outcome of a hypothetical taken out of linear time" is not a terrible torturing of language.

It is... It's plain fkking stupid. "I predict Dempsey would Marciano" Makes ZERO sense. A prediction is something you can be held to account for.

Kalan wrote:It is... It's plain fkking stupid. "I predict Dempsey would Marciano" Makes ZERO sense. A prediction is something you can be held to account for.

One things for sure, you get irritated if someone floats you another opinion.

Yep, the word prediction would be technically incorrect.....it's a manner of speaking not particularly stupid, so why so sour?

Your sort of a mystery, you insinuate into many threads that your knowledge is from walking the walk in boxing and you have made many remarks about your experience, and understanding of the sport.
So much so that you get pretty irate when any one questions you.


What's your history? Who have you trained? Why are you so self assured? Your success must be top notch.
I can tell you I have already started watching some of the things you have suggested to watch, and it's not that I miss what your getting at, I just don't always see these guys as being robotic and as "predictable" as you claim they "would be".

It is you that "predicts" that Valero would beat a dead and gone Armstrong. I know we both know it will never happen, because both men are rotting corpses.....so I want to mention that just in case you think people have been referring to a zombie apocalypse which may include former boxers rising and causing confusion and chaos throughout our hemisphere.

Buzz, I'm not “predicting” a thing with Valero-Armstrong... Merely stating why Valero easily wins the matchup... It's a matchup of skills, styles, strengths and weaknesses just like a real matchup, which I predict those regularly... However fantasy fights draw more pretentious comments because people have such strong opinions about myths being untouchable. To them it’s not close or contestable. They won’t check the video.. They won’t check the records.. They won’t analyze the styles.. They won’t argue facts.

Normally a guy who had a near death motorcycle accident… had a piece of his skull removed… had blood clots removed from his brain... had an abnormal brain scan... became addicted to the meds and pain killers they gave him.. Had the start of his Boxing career delayed for 18 months because he had difficulty getting licensed.. wouldn’t have that great a boxing career.. But Valero had a solid stance and movement.. threw great punches from every angle.. defended himself well.. was a strong finisher.. and caught a lot of guys coming in.. So he had 8 world Title Fights in a 27-0 career and did well with 27 straight KO wins.

Armstrong didn’t show a great deal of skill.. In Armstrong’s first 27 fights he was 19-4-4, didn’t fight as high caliber opponents as Valero... and he only scored 9 KO’s... He also had a lot of fouls called against him in his career, like 4 in 1 of his Ambers fights, but he never really stopped fouling, and sometimes committed 10 fouls a minute. It’s illegal to push, lever, or butt with your head.. Armstrong should have had a glove on his head.

Armstrong was also a World Champion at Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight simultaneously and still to this day holds the record for Welterweight Title defenses. He made 19 of them...and that's just at Welterweight.

He also fought the Middleweight Champion to a draw.

Garcia wasn't the Middleweight Champion... Garcia was a welterweight who had recently lost to Ross... He was only recognized in California and that was a gigantic scam on the public.

Cygnus475 wrote:Power-somewhat even, although foreman had more thud behind each individual shot. Liston had a little bit more "snap" and put his punches together better. As a side note, liston was a better finisher. Foreman was very wild when going for kayos and basically just bludgeoned his victims to death through sheer volume.

Jab-liston, although old Foreman's jab was
definitely on par.

Uppercuts-Foreman's had a little bit more pop and leverage behind them, but if either landed, either guy would be in trouble.

Right cross-Foreman no doubt.

Hook-liston. Foreman's hooks were very telegraphed.

Body shots-even.

Physical strength-young Foreman had a slight advantage and could smother liston with his height but nobody's getting shoved around like a doll. It's pretty close. Old foreman was basically an oak tree nobody's beating him in a contest of strength. In the phone booth I would say liston would land more frequently due to superior skill, body punching, and timing. In a clinch or on the ropes, it's all Foreman but again liston was as strong as a bull and it wouldn't be completely one sided. More often then not, foreman just shoves him away and avoids a close range fight but that leads to...

Reach-liston surprisingly. And if Foreman shoves liston back I have a bad feeling liston would start to catch on and time him with a one two or lead on the break. It could get very ugly as liston could set up shots well when he wanted to. Could be an early night for Liston as Foreman wouldn't see it coming.

Chin-I wanna say foreman, probably a toss up. Both guys had only 1 k loss (liston was old af fighting a stable mate that knew all his habits. Foreman gassed himself out against one of the greatest of all time). However Foreman got off the floor to win against lyle so he has the slight edge in overall toughness and damage soak.

Skill-liston, although old foreman was no slouch and would give liston all kinds of trouble.

Stamina-wow, another one that goes to liston. Old foreman is, again, a different story.

Speed-won't matter in a fight like this lol.

My predictions:

motovated prime Liston by k.o within 8 rounds or UD decision over young foreman 70% of the time. Too many advantages, he has reach, skill, timing, and can hang with foreman in the power and chin department. As long as liston makes it a "boxing" match or a back and forth tug of war in the trenches he will either stop foreman or win a competitive but clear decision a la mayweather V cotto.

Young Foreman can pretty much only win if he paces himself well and fights at mid range setting up right crosses and hooks like in the norton fight, pawing with his jab and shoving him to keep listpn from setting up his jab or getting his rhythm or combos off. With this strategy he could potentially stop liston mid rounds. Or, option 2, he just says screw it and turns it into a brawl like the lyle fight where he most likely wins more often than not but even then liston might turn things around with his own freakish power.

Old foreman either wins by UD or stops liston late in a chaotic, brutal chess match.

Power: Why not ask Wepner or Scrap Iron as both fought Foreman? Both men said Liston hit harder. In Wepner's case "so much harder."

Physical strength: Liston is clearly bigger in tale of the tapes and had, unmatched to this day, 18 inch biceps.

Chin: Liston by far. Liston was only knocked out one time when over 40 years old and down with the flu by a Very hard puncher who might've just hit Liston with the greatest and most brutal combo in history. That was the only time he was ever down. Liston took HUGE shots from Cleveland Williams, most likely a harder puncher than Liston himself! One of those shots actually broke his nose. Liston did not budge. Foreman was knocked down twice by Lyle and once by Young and Ali.

Speed: Liston...BY FAR.

Foreman by ko.

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:Power-somewhat even, although foreman had more thud behind each individual shot. Liston had a little bit more "snap" and put his punches together better. As a side note, liston was a better finisher. Foreman was very wild when going for kayos and basically just bludgeoned his victims to death through sheer volume.

Jab-liston, although old Foreman's jab was
definitely on par.

Uppercuts-Foreman's had a little bit more pop and leverage behind them, but if either landed, either guy would be in trouble.

Right cross-Foreman no doubt.

Hook-liston. Foreman's hooks were very telegraphed.

Body shots-even.

Physical strength-young Foreman had a slight advantage and could smother liston with his height but nobody's getting shoved around like a doll. It's pretty close. Old foreman was basically an oak tree nobody's beating him in a contest of strength. In the phone booth I would say liston would land more frequently due to superior skill, body punching, and timing. In a clinch or on the ropes, it's all Foreman but again liston was as strong as a bull and it wouldn't be completely one sided. More often then not, foreman just shoves him away and avoids a close range fight but that leads to...

Reach-liston surprisingly. And if Foreman shoves liston back I have a bad feeling liston would start to catch on and time him with a one two or lead on the break. It could get very ugly as liston could set up shots well when he wanted to. Could be an early night for Liston as Foreman wouldn't see it coming.

Chin-I wanna say foreman, probably a toss up. Both guys had only 1 k loss (liston was old af fighting a stable mate that knew all his habits. Foreman gassed himself out against one of the greatest of all time). However Foreman got off the floor to win against lyle so he has the slight edge in overall toughness and damage soak.

Skill-liston, although old foreman was no slouch and would give liston all kinds of trouble.

Stamina-wow, another one that goes to liston. Old foreman is, again, a different story.

Speed-won't matter in a fight like this lol.

My predictions:

motovated prime Liston by k.o within 8 rounds or UD decision over young foreman 70% of the time. Too many advantages, he has reach, skill, timing, and can hang with foreman in the power and chin department. As long as liston makes it a "boxing" match or a back and forth tug of war in the trenches he will either stop foreman or win a competitive but clear decision a la mayweather V cotto.

Young Foreman can pretty much only win if he paces himself well and fights at mid range setting up right crosses and hooks like in the norton fight, pawing with his jab and shoving him to keep listpn from setting up his jab or getting his rhythm or combos off. With this strategy he could potentially stop liston mid rounds. Or, option 2, he just says screw it and turns it into a brawl like the lyle fight where he most likely wins more often than not but even then liston might turn things around with his own freakish power.

Old foreman either wins by UD or stops liston late in a chaotic, brutal chess match.

Power: Why not ask Wepner or Scrap Iron as both fought Foreman? Both men said Liston hit harder. In Wepner's case "so much harder."

Physical strength: Liston is clearly bigger in tale of the tapes and had, unmatched to this day, 18 inch biceps.

Chin: Liston by far. Liston was only knocked out one time when over 40 years old and down with the flu by a Very hard puncher who might've just hit Liston with the greatest and most brutal combo in history. That was the only time he was ever down. Liston took HUGE shots from Cleveland Williams, most likely a harder puncher than Liston himself! One of those shots actually broke his nose. Liston did not budge. Foreman was knocked down twice by Lyle and once by Young and Ali.

Speed: Liston...BY FAR.

Scrap iron was stopped in the exact same round by both men in the 7th. Foreman won by cuts, liston managed to knock him down though. What's interesting is it only took lyle 3 rounds.

As for wepner, it took liston 9 rounds to Foreman's 4, although liston made a much bloodier mess and systematically broke him down with superb jab work.

I doubt Cleveland hit harder than liston. Other than terrel, Cleveland didn't stop any top ten ranked boxers, the vast majority of his k.os were against journeymen or bums. Foreman did spar him and listed him as one of the top 3 hardest hitters he faced so who know, but that man could definitely whack either way and it's impressive liston took shot after shot from him in two thrilling fights.

Hmm, kind of hard to judge in terms of chin and power. I'd say liston had more snap and knew how to put his combinations together better while foreman had more thudding 1 punch solid power if that makes any sense. Not a huge difference either way. Foreman's knockdowns against young and Ali were 75% due to fatigue from fighting like an idiot and punching himself out (although Ali was no slouch in punching power either). Lyle was a hell of a puncher and it was basically a you hit me, I hit you slug fest, anyone would have gone down at least once in that fight. Although foreman went down more times than liston, I feel he has the more proven chin since he fought a wider variety of bigger men with tons of power in his career (briggs, morrison, shultz, etc). Liston has williams, wepner, and not much else. Most of his opponents were under 6'3 220 lbs.

Interesting question.

The only way this fight coulve happened would be a very, very young Foreman against a very old Liston.

In that cases, Liston by UD or late stoppage, Foremans punching power did not developed until he had dozens of fights in his record, and it that time he was barely 210 pounds, George only advantage would ve been his height.

In other words, Liston was way more skillful in that time (i believe that Foreman 2.0 from the 90s improved a lot in this department and had skills superior or comparable to Liston s)

Liston, at that time, had pretty much the same speed, but i give him the edge on punching power. He clearly has the endurance advantage as well.

But Primer for prime, a 225 Foreman against a 215 Liston, i give it to foreman by Knockout, Foreman power was a level ahead of the ones like Cleveland Williams, and Liston heart and chin were always questionable. No, i dont think Clay really knocked him out, but he was hurt and knocked out in his carrer by way weaker punchers, and it took him like 10 rounds to fight a bum named Chuck "The bleeder" Wepner.

Anyway, it would be an epic action packed fight.

pedrog60 wrote:Interesting question.

The only way this fight coulve happened would be a very, very young Foreman against a very old Liston.

In that cases, Liston by UD or late stoppage, Foremans punching power did not developed until he had dozens of fights in his record, and it that time he was barely 210 pounds, George only advantage would ve been his height.

In other words, Liston was way more skillful in that time (i believe that Foreman 2.0 from the 90s improved a lot in this department and had skills superior or comparable to Liston s)

Liston, at that time, had pretty much the same speed, but i give him the edge on punching power. He clearly has the endurance advantage as well.

But Primer for prime, a 225 Foreman against a 215 Liston, i give it to foreman by Knockout, Foreman power was a level ahead of the ones like Cleveland Williams, and Liston heart and chin were always questionable. No, i dont think Clay really knocked him out, but he was hurt and knocked out in his carrer by way weaker punchers, and it took him like 10 rounds to fight a bum named Chuck "The bleeder" Wepner.

Anyway, it would be an epic action packed fight.

I hate it when people refer to any boxer as a "bum"

abdelfadeeli wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:Power-somewhat even, although foreman had more thud behind each individual shot. Liston had a little bit more "snap" and put his punches together better. As a side note, liston was a better finisher. Foreman was very wild when going for kayos and basically just bludgeoned his victims to death through sheer volume.

Jab-liston, although old Foreman's jab was
definitely on par.

Uppercuts-Foreman's had a little bit more pop and leverage behind them, but if either landed, either guy would be in trouble.

Right cross-Foreman no doubt.

Hook-liston. Foreman's hooks were very telegraphed.

Body shots-even.

Physical strength-young Foreman had a slight advantage and could smother liston with his height but nobody's getting shoved around like a doll. It's pretty close. Old foreman was basically an oak tree nobody's beating him in a contest of strength. In the phone booth I would say liston would land more frequently due to superior skill, body punching, and timing. In a clinch or on the ropes, it's all Foreman but again liston was as strong as a bull and it wouldn't be completely one sided. More often then not, foreman just shoves him away and avoids a close range fight but that leads to...

Reach-liston surprisingly. And if Foreman shoves liston back I have a bad feeling liston would start to catch on and time him with a one two or lead on the break. It could get very ugly as liston could set up shots well when he wanted to. Could be an early night for Liston as Foreman wouldn't see it coming.

Chin-I wanna say foreman, probably a toss up. Both guys had only 1 k loss (liston was old af fighting a stable mate that knew all his habits. Foreman gassed himself out against one of the greatest of all time). However Foreman got off the floor to win against lyle so he has the slight edge in overall toughness and damage soak.

Skill-liston, although old foreman was no slouch and would give liston all kinds of trouble.

Stamina-wow, another one that goes to liston. Old foreman is, again, a different story.

Speed-won't matter in a fight like this lol.

My predictions:

motovated prime Liston by k.o within 8 rounds or UD decision over young foreman 70% of the time. Too many advantages, he has reach, skill, timing, and can hang with foreman in the power and chin department. As long as liston makes it a "boxing" match or a back and forth tug of war in the trenches he will either stop foreman or win a competitive but clear decision a la mayweather V cotto.

Young Foreman can pretty much only win if he paces himself well and fights at mid range setting up right crosses and hooks like in the norton fight, pawing with his jab and shoving him to keep listpn from setting up his jab or getting his rhythm or combos off. With this strategy he could potentially stop liston mid rounds. Or, option 2, he just says screw it and turns it into a brawl like the lyle fight where he most likely wins more often than not but even then liston might turn things around with his own freakish power.

Old foreman either wins by UD or stops liston late in a chaotic, brutal chess match.

Power: Why not ask Wepner or Scrap Iron as both fought Foreman? Both men said Liston hit harder. In Wepner's case "so much harder."

Physical strength: Liston is clearly bigger in tale of the tapes and had, unmatched to this day, 18 inch biceps.

Chin: Liston by far. Liston was only knocked out one time when over 40 years old and down with the flu by a Very hard puncher who might've just hit Liston with the greatest and most brutal combo in history. That was the only time he was ever down. Liston took HUGE shots from Cleveland Williams, most likely a harder puncher than Liston himself! One of those shots actually broke his nose. Liston did not budge. Foreman was knocked down twice by Lyle and once by Young and Ali.

Speed: Liston...BY FAR.

LMAO!!! Liston was hit by the greatest and most brutal combo in history???? By a ring worn opponent who weighed 196 right??? Even though Boxrec is padding Martin's weight by 3 pounds... And what do 18 inch biceps have to do with anything??? And I don't think Cleveland Williams was that hard a puncher.. Liston mowed Williams down quickly in both their fights and that was prime Williams.. Williams' first 30 opponents were tomato cans strictly for building his KO record... Cleveland Williams fought 176-pound Bob Satterfield in his 33rd fight and was knocked dead in the 3rd round of a slugfest.

Liston wouldn't beat Foreman based on size, strength, toughness, or chin... But in his prime in the mid to late 1950's, Liston had a better jab and better head movement. Sonny also had better countering skills, and was a good thinker in the ring -- contrary to popular belief...

When Liston faced Ali he had fought 3 shortened rounds in the previous 3 years.. That's not good.. Big punchers need more fights.. Their fights are so short that it's not enough real action to keep them sharp.. One fight in a year that goes 1 or 2 minutes is not enough -- when that's all you had for 3 years running.

Not sure what your convoluted point is here, but anyway:
Cleveland Williams took the Satterfield fight literally at the last minute. That fight means almost nothing.

Interesting that weight always means so much to you but biceps mean nothing.
Liston was blowing almost everyone out early because he that good; similar to what Foreman was doing.

Liston and Foreman were both big, strong, and powerful... They both overpowered a lot of smaller swingers who had no boxing skills... Liston had a solid edge in his prime because he was a better boxer and better thinker in the ring... Foreman was the better cherry-picker and better businessman... Foreman matured a lot mentally before he made his comeback... He figured out why he lost those fights and had a strategy.

I think Williams' people took the Satterfield fight on short notice because Williams had been in the gym training for another fight... Satterfield weighed 176... and Satterfield was noted for having a glass chin... They figured their bigger, taller, stronger, big puncher could take the chinny Satterfield out... It just shows how vulnerable Williams was whenever he stepped in there with anybody who could think.

Williams just had a fight two weeks previously, so he would not have been in serious training for another fight. If he would have been training for another fight, it would make no sense to take this fight at the last minute.
He never should have taken a fight. He was literally pulled out of the crowd. You can't seriously think he was prepared to fight anyone decent at all.

Williams had a draw with Eddie Machen, who may have been the smartest heavyweight around at the time. Williams also defeated Ernie Terrell and barely lost a rematch. Terrell was certainly not a dumb fighter.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Williams just had a fight two weeks previously, so he would not have been in serious training for another fight. If he would have been training for another fight, it would make no sense to take this fight at the last minute.
He never should have taken a fight. He was literally pulled out of the crowd. You can't seriously think he was prepared to fight anyone decent at all.

Williams had a draw with Eddie Machen, who may have been the smartest heavyweight around at the time. Williams also defeated Ernie Terrell and barely lost a rematch. Terrell was certainly not a dumb fighter.

Not at all... Eddie Machen wasn't the smartest Heavyweight around at the time... He got bombed out by Ingemar Johannson in the 1st round and easily out boxed by Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson, who was a VERY smart boxer.. Williams couldn't do crap to Machen except eek out a dubious draw in a non-fight.. Terrell was terrible -- and the fact he beat Williams in their rematch just shows you how lame Williams was.

Plus... If Mike Tyson KO'd Michael Spinks 2 weeks previously---he could come out of any crowd and smash a light heavyweight as chinny as Bob Satterfield like it was nothing... Williams didn't even take any time off after his previous fight and stayed in the gym... That's why he took this fight on short notice... Plus the fact the Satterfield was a notoriously glass jawed Light Heavyweight... Satterfield had been knocked out 10 times previously in 16 losses.

The diminutive, hittable, and China-chinned 176-pounder knocked Cleveland Williams out so badly that Big Cat took more than 2 years off from Boxing.

If you like the guy, any excuse will do. If he is not one your favorites, then the circumstances don't matter at all.

Ambling Alp II wrote:If you like the guy, any excuse will do. If he is not one your favorites, then the circumstances don't matter at all.

Roger that......

to the point that it's a bit painful to witness.


Now in my case, When I say that Archie Moore could defeat the entire French Army in a glance.....My credibility carries the day.

But this fella Kalan, takes it to another level. And at this point I need to look to other sources to vet some of the things this guy maps out for us.

Kalan wrote: Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson, who was a VERY smart boxer.. .

Just want it on the record that I agree with this statement.

You're learning...albeit at a glacial pace... Try to pick it up

Foreman mia round stopp. age

Foreman by brutal KO after a furious battle inside 5 rds. George is the harder puncher, has the better chin, and is the more proven fighter.