BoxRec

Kalan wrote:And you have to get off Lewis’s dick. He got stretched by McCall and Rahman and was losing on all scorecards to VK after 6.

Lewis and Marciano are the only two heavyweight champions that retired having beaten every professional boxer they fought. You know Lewis avenged his losses to McCall and Rahman right.
Yes, he was behind on points in the Klitschko fight but he still won. It wasn't an ideal ending to the contest but cuts happen in boxing! I would have loved to see a rematch but Lewis knew his best days had gone.
Incidentally Muhammad Ali also beat every professional boxer he ever faced up until his retirement in 1979 (avenging his losses to Frazier x2, Norton x2 and Spinks). It is a crying shame that he was allowed to fight Holmes and Berbick when he was a sick man.

Lewis/Vitali was one of the few fights I was literally screaming for it to be stopped. I was cheering for Vitali. While everyone talks about the misfortune of Vitali getting his face ripped to shreds, those folks never delve into the fact that Lewis accepted him on about a weeks notice when Johnson pulled out. Vitalli fought the worst version ever of Lennox and got his ass kicked.

LL was way passed his prime when he fought Vit and he did take that fight on short notice. What would have happened IF LL fought Vit when he was younger and had more time to train? Who knows? Another IF is what if Vit hadn't been cut?

I would have liked to see a rematch, but LL was under no obligation to do so.

He was cut, legally, and Lewis was out of shape. Lennox still won. Lennox had a big 6th round, he might have stopped Vitali or he could have gassed. Luckily for him he rearranged his face and got to go home early.

Iron Mike

King Carlos wrote:Iron Mike

Your only weakness I've found against reason in Boxing.

Lewis was 36 when he KO'd 35-year-old Mike Tyson.... Holmes was 38 when he was KO'd by 21-year-old Mike Tyson.

They both beat Ray Mercer so that's a wash... Lewis beat Holyfield twice both should have been UD ... Holyfield bet Holmes by UD.

Holmes won 48 straight -- but he gets nicked for losing to a Light Heavyweight twice in his 49th and 50th fights.

Holmes gets a demerit for dedication -- when you look at his great big, fat pot-belly when he fought Mercer, Holyfield, McCall, Butterbean etc.

I voted Lennox Lewis. I'm a bit biased considering he's my favorite HW of all time, I still feel he's the last Heavyweight that could have potentially beaten any Heavyweight to ever lace them up. Holmes is the clear # 2 for me followed by Foreman.

You certainly can make a case for Lewis. I'm just surprised so many people are voting for him.
He did lose twice in prime to fighters that are nowhere near the Top 10. Nobody on this list has two losses like that.

Is his "victim's" list that impressive when comparing him to the other fighters listed here? You can't really give him too much credit for beating Holyfield and Tyson at that stage of their career's. After that, what else is that impressive, when comparing him to Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield etc.?

People point to bad breaks he got, but he also got some good breaks. He looked horrible in the 2nd Holyfield fight and was fortunate to get the decision against a washed up Holyfield.
He also should not have got the decision against Mercer.

Just can't believe that many people are voting for Lewis and nobody is voting for Holyfield and Frazier.

Ambling Alp II wrote:You certainly can make a case for Lewis. I'm just surprised so many people are voting for him ... He did lose twice in prime to fighters that are nowhere near the Top 10. Nobody on this list has two losses like that. Just can't believe that many people are voting for Lewis and nobody is voting for Holyfield and Frazier.

Maybe because Holyfield lost his trilogy with the pathetic, slop-assed punching bag Bowe... Bowe got banged around by the ridiculously clumsy oaf Golota - and Bowe ducked almost all of the best fighters of his day... Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall because he wasn't paying attention for 2 seconds out of his whole career... He won the rematches easily so it means he could have easily won every fight he ever fought if he just paid attention a little better.. Michael Moorer did the same thing.. He decided to go AWOL mentally during the 10th round during a fight he was winning with ease... It happens.

Frazier didn't just lose to Foreman or have a 1-second slip-up.. He fought worse than a 4-round fighter and looked like a punching bag with ears.

Lewis for me. Good amateur background, gold medal winner. As a pro beat every fighter he ever fought, ducked no-one, good KO ratio and number of defences. Good all round ability and able to give any fighter in history a hard fight, he would beat most too. His losses are a shame but definitely an argument that he underprepared for Rahman, career heaviest and no proper preparation for fighting at altitude. The rematch went how the first fight should've gone. My only criticism was he could be too cautious.

Kalan wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:You certainly can make a case for Lewis. I'm just surprised so many people are voting for him ... He did lose twice in prime to fighters that are nowhere near the Top 10. Nobody on this list has two losses like that. Just can't believe that many people are voting for Lewis and nobody is voting for Holyfield and Frazier.

Maybe because Holyfield lost his trilogy with the pathetic, slop-assed punching bag Bowe... Bowe got banged around by the ridiculously clumsy oaf Golota - and Bowe ducked almost all of the best fighters of his day... Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall because he wasn't paying attention for 2 seconds out of his whole career... He won the rematches easily so it means he could have easily won every fight he ever fought if he just paid attention a little better.. Michael Moorer did the same thing.. He decided to go AWOL mentally during the 10th round during a fight he was winning with ease... It happens.

Frazier didn't just lose to Foreman or have a 1-second slip-up.. He fought worse than a 4-round fighter and looked like a punching bag with ears.

Yes it happens that a fighter gets knocked out by an inferior opponent close to your prime.

However, it never happened to Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Holyfield, or Liston.
It only happened to Dempsey and Tyson once.
Lewis is the only one on the list that it happened to twice. Paying attention is a rahter important part of boxing.

Holyfield's decision loss to Riddick Bowe in a great fight is no where near as embarrassing as get knocked out by Hasim Rahman.

I agree that you can make an argument for Lewis. However, this is far from cut and dry.
Also don't think the "he beat everyone he fought" argument means much for three main reasons:

1. If you think that is such a big deal, Marciano better be right up there on your list.
2. You can't just dismiss the losses just because he won the rematches. The losses happened.
3. He should not have got the decision against Ray Mercer. That should not be swept under the rug.

Kalan wrote:The only problem with Johnson is, he let that horrible boxer Willard beat him... and Johnson was a fat tub when that happened... He also let them put him into a 45-round fight... Who agrees to crap like that????

Willard wasn't a horrible boxer; he was a knockout puncher with an iron chin and a quick, hard jab. On film he doesn't look any more limited than Vitali Klitschko other than in footwork.

Lennox is getting over-rated with time because his era was historically weak, but compared to the heavyweights after him it looks like a golden era by comparison.

dempseyfire wrote:

Kalan wrote:The only problem with Johnson is, he let that horrible boxer Willard beat him... and Johnson was a fat tub when that happened... He also let them put him into a 45-round fight... Who agrees to crap like that????

Willard wasn't a horrible boxer; he was a knockout puncher with an iron chin and a quick, hard jab. On film he doesn't look any more limited than Vitali Klitschko other than in footwork.

Lennox is getting over-rated with time because his era was historically weak, but compared to the heavyweights after him it looks like a golden era by comparison.

Lewis's era was very strong... Bowe refused to fight him... Tyson waited until his marketing value started to decline to fight Lewis and Lewis is older than Tyson... Holyfield ducked Lewis for over a decade before he finally fought him... So Lewis's contemporaries were Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Morrison, Tua, Ibeabuchi, and his record against them is 6-0... forget about the draw robbery and he really did beat Mercer... If Holyfield, Tyson, and Bowe all fought Lewis when they were in their 20's it would have been a different era... We're in the age of DUCKING.

Willard was a completely miserable punching bag... Vitali would destroy him and it's not close... Vitali was a great boxer... Willard was a clown.

Willard hated Boxing... Nobody who enjoys boxing goes 4 years without a fight when his marketing value is at it's peak.

What if I were to tell you that I had a very nearly educated opinion that differs with you on this specfic subject?

I'd probably favor Larry Holmes, but I could easily see a few different guys in that group getting the best of an overall Round Robin amongst themselves.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:You certainly can make a case for Lewis. I'm just surprised so many people are voting for him ... He did lose twice in prime to fighters that are nowhere near the Top 10. Nobody on this list has two losses like that. Just can't believe that many people are voting for Lewis and nobody is voting for Holyfield and Frazier.

Maybe because Holyfield lost his trilogy with the pathetic, slop-assed punching bag Bowe... Bowe got banged around by the ridiculously clumsy oaf Golota - and Bowe ducked almost all of the best fighters of his day... Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall because he wasn't paying attention for 2 seconds out of his whole career... He won the rematches easily so it means he could have easily won every fight he ever fought if he just paid attention a little better.. Michael Moorer did the same thing.. He decided to go AWOL mentally during the 10th round during a fight he was winning with ease... It happens.

Frazier didn't just lose to Foreman or have a 1-second slip-up.. He fought worse than a 4-round fighter and looked like a punching bag with ears.

Yes it happens that a fighter gets knocked out by an inferior opponent close to your prime.

However, it never happened to Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Holyfield, or Liston.
It only happened to Dempsey and Tyson once.
Lewis is the only one on the list that it happened to twice. Paying attention is a rahter important part of boxing.

Holyfield's decision loss to Riddick Bowe in a great fight is no where near as embarrassing as get knocked out by Hasim Rahman.

I agree that you can make an argument for Lewis. However, this is far from cut and dry.
Also don't think the "he beat everyone he fought" argument means much for three main reasons:

1. If you think that is such a big deal, Marciano better be right up there on your list.
2. You can't just dismiss the losses just because he won the rematches. The losses happened.
3. He should not have got the decision against Ray Mercer. That should not be swept under the rug.

Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, and Liston all suffered big upsets... Marciano never fought a real Heavyweight.

Holyfield's loss to Michael Moorer was just as bad or worse than getting beaten by Rahman... Lewis really beat Mercer... Lewis's contemporaries ducked him... Bowe never fought him... Holyfield avoided him for over 10 years... Tyson avoided Lewis for over 10 years... His record against Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, and Holyfield is 4-0

Kalan wrote:

Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, and Liston all suffered big upsets... Marciano never fought a real Heavyweight.

\


Marciano fans are going to be provoked. The last time someone used his name in vain, we never heard the end of it. Can't you find at least one real Heavyweight on his opponent list?
and retract that statement? Just to appease them? I don't want to have to pick up all the cans and bottles that are going to be tossed about when they go into their drunken rage.

The big question is if the Marciano never beat a real heavyweight dumber than the comments that he made about Lennox Lewis?

Holyfield ducked him for 10 years. Frikkin please.

Loved the part about about Lewis being 4-0 vs Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, and Holyfield.
He never fought Bowe.
Officially he had a draw with Holyfield, which makes him 3-0-1 against Mercer, Tyson, and Holyfield.
If the judges were fair, he loses the first decision to Mercer, wins the first decision against Holyfield, and loses the 2nd.

That would make his record against Mercer, a way past it Tyson, and a way past up Holyfield 2-2.

Holyfield beat Rahman when he was 100.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be more interesting than the usual heavyweight argument. Not including Ali or Louis for this. Of these 10, who was the best heavyweight?
State your case for someone.

Why no Brown Bomber? Too good? Or too small? Can’t have been smaller than Rocky M.
Frazier suffers on a poll with a man who did to him what George did, yet he belongs on it all the same.

Crease wrote:

Kalan wrote:I have to go with Lewis from this limited group of Heavyweights.

"Limited" heavyweights?

You do realise that the above list is undoubtedly a who's who of the all-time great heavyweight fighters (Ali & Louis as well).

These guys are the best & most dominant fighters in that weight class, think your being a little disrespectful there.

I think describing Anthony Joshua as the most technically focused heavyweight since Gene Tunney is a stretch too. How many decades have been skipped there, about 8 or 9?
Utter pish.

magwitch wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be more interesting than the usual heavyweight argument. Not including Ali or Louis for this. Of these 10, who was the best heavyweight?
State your case for someone.

Why no Brown Bomber? Too good? Or too small? Can’t have been smaller than Rocky M.
Frazier suffers on a poll with a man who did to him what George did, yet he belongs on it all the same.

It's a given that Ali & louis are 1 and 1a, however you rate them.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The big question is if the Marciano never beat a real heavyweight dumber than the comments that he made about Lennox Lewis?

Holyfield ducked him for 10 years. Frikkin please.

Loved the part about about Lewis being 4-0 vs Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, and Holyfield.
He never fought Bowe.
Officially he had a draw with Holyfield, which makes him 3-0-1 against Mercer, Tyson, and Holyfield.
If the judges were fair, he loses the first decision to Mercer, wins the first decision against Holyfield, and loses the 2nd.

That would make his record against Mercer, a way past it Tyson, and a way past up Holyfield 2-2.

Not sure our friend has ever seen a single close fight, (if he has, he has never admitted it) though he does seem to feel that a lot of one sided beatdowns were given away to their opponents by judges.