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Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 08 Jul 2016, 02:18
by Kalan
True enough... Though Norris was certainly more of a martial arts competitor than Lee.

As far as Chamberlain goes.. We're talking about his athletic potential as a boxer...and not anything he accomplished as a boxer. He wanted to fight Ali if he got 6 months to train. And a negotiated fight contract with that stipulation was drawn up by lawyers representing both Chamberlain and Ali.. He wasn't allowed to fight Ali, but he would have destroyed him.

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 08 Jul 2016, 03:44
by gp.
sweetviolenturge wrote:gp - Yes, Chuck Norris was incredibly accomplished in sport karate.
And , while his record of 183-10-2 is very impressive, those matches were in tournament style karate, which is basically semi-contact. With it's matches taking place on mats on an open floor, NOT in a ring.
I specified that fact so strongly because the vast majority of people are under the false assumption that Norris was a World Middleweight Champion in Full Contact Karate/Kickboxing. Which he most certainly was not, but still, this falsehood is perpetuated by Hollywood, his fans & yep, by Norris himself.
Thanks! :TU:

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 08 Jul 2016, 11:24
by man
sweetviolenturge wrote:I specified that fact so strongly because the vast majority of people are under the false assumption that Norris was a World Middleweight Champion in Full Contact Karate/Kickboxing. Which he most certainly was not, but still, this falsehood is perpetuated by Hollywood, his fans & yep, by Norris himself.
especially since it didn't exist in
organised form at that time.

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 14 Jul 2016, 03:58
by sweetviolenturge
man wrote:
sweetviolenturge wrote:I specified that fact so strongly because the vast majority of people are under the false assumption that Norris was a World Middleweight Champion in Full Contact Karate/Kickboxing. Which he most certainly was not, but still, this falsehood is perpetuated by Hollywood, his fans & yep, by Norris himself.
especially since it didn't exist in
organised form at that time.
No, but the PKA was established a short amount of time later & Norris's sport karate/tournament competitor contemporaries Joe Lewis & Bill Wallace made the transition into the full contact ring & became champions.
Who knows why Norris didn't do so as well, which I don't have an issue with. But, I have noticed over the years that whenever someone mistakenly gives him credit for being a World Middleweight Champion kickboxer he never corrects them. Which irks me.

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 14 Jul 2016, 06:35
by man
sweetviolenturge wrote:I have noticed over the years that whenever someone mistakenly gives him credit for being a World Middleweight Champion kickboxer he never corrects them. Which irks me.
i was not aware of that. very differrent
sports for me.

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 14 Jul 2016, 13:56
by pound per pound
sweetviolenturge wrote:gp - Yes, Chuck Norris was incredibly accomplished in sport karate.
And , while his record of 183-10-2 is very impressive, those matches were in tournament style karate, which is basically semi-contact. With it's matches taking place on mats on an open floor, NOT in a ring.
I specified that fact so strongly because the vast majority of people are under the false assumption that Norris was a World Middleweight Champion in Full Contact Karate/Kickboxing. Which he most certainly was not, but still, this falsehood is perpetuated by Hollywood, his fans & yep, by Norris himself.
Yes, Norris wasn't just an actor. He proved it in tournaments. Chuck was perhaps the most " for real " martial arts movie star.

Lee was I think an incredibly fast and limber athlete with an aptitude for movie style choreographed fights. He also stood 5'7" tall and weighed about 130 pounds. Lee battles injuries.

I do not think Lee would hold up in an MMA style match. I saw him hit a heavy bag, he had little power in his hands. While he could kick like a mule, how many MMA matches are decided by one kick? Very few.

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 14 Jul 2016, 14:51
by Kalan
Tony1244 wrote:3 fabled "fighters" are Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and Jack Dempsey.

Lee was an actor. If you notice, REAL MMA matches look nothing like a Kung Fu movie.

Chuck Norris. see above. An actor.

Dempsey symbolized early American 20th century toughness and while he is the only real fighter of the bunch, he was more sizzle than steak. Name his 3 best wins and critique them. Nothing too impressive there.

All 3 may have been tough guys, but the greatness as fighters is merely fable.
I don't see how Dempsey gets thrown in with Lee and Norris as some fable who couldn't fight... and I don't see how Jack Dempsey was overrated... He was one of the greatest punchers and absorbers in the History of Boxing... One of the toughest and most powerful hitters in ring history.. When he ruled the Heavyweight Division most fistic observers concurred that he was the best fighter in the world..

Dempsey was a worldwide sensation when he won the Heavyweight Championship -- but then he started touring and doing personal appearances and he went soft... Dempsey often said this... He felt his peak was before he won the Heavyweight Title in his fights with Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, Bill Brennan, and Billy Miske... He was fighting a great deal more often and intent on his goal -- winning the Heavyweight Championship of the World... "After I won the Title I really didn't have a goal. Except to rake in all the money from touring."

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 18 Jul 2016, 11:20
by Cutman Scabbers
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this here yet: considering the ease with which
Bruce Lee dominated Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (granted, the fight was fairly even until
Lee knocked Jabbar's sun glasses off), it seems pretty obvious what would happen
were Lee to ever face off with Wilt Chamberlain.

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 18 Jul 2016, 13:45
by Syntax Error
I'm surprised someone on here has started a thread staing that Tufty The Squirrel or The Green Cross Code Man had a legitimate shot at beating Mike Tyson in 1987!

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 18 Jul 2016, 16:47
by Cutman Scabbers
Syntax Error wrote:I'm surprised someone on here has started a thread staing that Tufty The Squirrel or The Green Cross Code Man had a legitimate shot at beating Mike Tyson in 1987!

Are you referring to the gent at 2:30 of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjihwFWZI8

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 19 Jul 2016, 05:53
by Stevieb8006
sweetviolenturge wrote:So, let me get this straight. You're saying that had Bruce Lee been matched up with a 1973 era Muhammad Ali in an MMA contest that he'd have "clowned" Ali?
Wow.
You do, of course, realize that Lee was 5'7" - 5'8" & weighed about 135lbs at his peak? And, that while a terrific, highly innovative martial artist that he never had a single sanctioned full contact bout of any kind? That is, other than some rumored amateur boxing matches in Hong Kong as a youth.
So, therefore, I imagine that you'd favor the UFC's bantamweight champion Dominic Cruz over current heavyweight champion Tyson Fury?
I'm sorry, but I find both notions ludicrous.
We have absolutely no clue how good Lee's chin may have been. But, I do know that outside of the world of celluloid fantasies, that Lee wouldn't have remained upright ( nor, likely, conscious ) after an Ali right hand. And being predominantly a striker, Lee would have gotten hit.
Now, he may have attempted to shoot in & take Ali down, but one thing that almost every Ali opponent had to say about him that they were surprised by/impressed with was his deceptive physical strength in the clinches. So, no way Lee takes down the 6'3" 215lb Ali.

Now, if you want to discuss a much more realistic MMA bout between Lee & a fighter his own size from that era in Roberto Duran, I'm game. But Lee vs Ali? It's just silly.
:TU: :TU: :TU:

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 19 Jul 2016, 07:07
by Cutman Scabbers
Stevieb8006 wrote:
sweetviolenturge wrote:So, let me get this straight. You're saying that had Bruce Lee been matched up with a 1973 era Muhammad Ali in an MMA contest that he'd have "clowned" Ali?
Wow.
You do, of course, realize that Lee was 5'7" - 5'8" & weighed about 135lbs at his peak? And, that while a terrific, highly innovative martial artist that he never had a single sanctioned full contact bout of any kind? That is, other than some rumored amateur boxing matches in Hong Kong as a youth.
So, therefore, I imagine that you'd favor the UFC's bantamweight champion Dominic Cruz over current heavyweight champion Tyson Fury?
I'm sorry, but I find both notions ludicrous.
We have absolutely no clue how good Lee's chin may have been. But, I do know that outside of the world of celluloid fantasies, that Lee wouldn't have remained upright ( nor, likely, conscious ) after an Ali right hand. And being predominantly a striker, Lee would have gotten hit.
Now, he may have attempted to shoot in & take Ali down, but one thing that almost every Ali opponent had to say about him that they were surprised by/impressed with was his deceptive physical strength in the clinches. So, no way Lee takes down the 6'3" 215lb Ali.

Now, if you want to discuss a much more realistic MMA bout between Lee & a fighter his own size from that era in Roberto Duran, I'm game. But Lee vs Ali? It's just silly.
:TU: :TU: :TU:

Again -- Bruce Lee destroyed Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

Do you really think Bruce Lee vs. Wilt Chamberlain would have been much different?

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 19 Jul 2016, 10:17
by BoxBuzz
MEMO:

TO: Those who have PM'd me on certain subject matters.

Not long ago......in this very forum.....people were SO impressed with Ronda Rousey and the hysteria that came with her very good run of victories (I like her I celebrated her success, and I believe I kept my thinking in proper perspective).

I mean after all....she was "knocking out" all of her opponents.....you know...by submission or by tap out, breaking elbows etc.
and a GOOD AND PLENTY LOT of folks who hang out in this forum started to "imagineer" a rumor that she could pretty much decimate any "boxing disciplined" man her size.......and this hysteria grew....to where a fair amount of "we the forum" were even touting the idea that ONLY the really big guys....like the K bros might be beyond her reach. A whole lot of names, who would never now admit to it were saying she would be too much for Floyd Mayweather.

I thought to myself......what sort of drug is being shared be so many of our contributors? I kept calling for reason and saying this was just nonsense....and almost got ran out of the thread for my obvious inability to see the light.

ON the good side......Talk about an interesting discussion/conversation....with absolutely no merit. (Keep in mind that she had that mysterious, attractive and transcendent "0" in her portfolio which mesmerized everyone). Never beaten was she!!!! Lot's of people dropped in to opine......it was really getting out of hand...Rousey vs Kong.......with Rousey beating the big ape handily was not out of bounds for this long going discussion. (IN the off topic area)

Anyone remember that?



Then a roughly equal sized woman......and well disciplined marshal artist who's MAIN DISCIPLINE was that of successful boxing.....knocked her snotbox into the third row seats......and that discussion came to a bit of an embarrassing halt.



I enjoyed it.........not because I kept attempting to say that the idea that she could possibly pull Kong's arm off at the elbow and beat him to death with it was a silly notion. And that she would not have a chance with the guys in the division, and I happened to be proven to be "likely correct". (I would say that NOTHING is absolutely certain....just "highly likely" )

But because it got people talking, thinking and considering many possibilities.


I do like a good conversation....even when folks are a bit overly enthusiastic with their particular point of view.

This should help explain my tolerance for viewpoints that appear to be on the fringe.


Only Archie Moore could take Kong's OR Wilt's arm off at the elbow and proceed to thrash them into their eternal rewards.


And these are the fax as I see them

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 19 Jul 2016, 12:29
by Cutman Scabbers
For those of you who have any doubts about Bruce Lee vs. Wilt Chamberlain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 22 Jul 2016, 06:07
by Syntax Error
Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:I'm surprised someone on here has started a thread staing that Tufty The Squirrel or The Green Cross Code Man had a legitimate shot at beating Mike Tyson in 1987!

Are you referring to the gent at 2:30 of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjihwFWZI8
He is the one.

The real life Green Cross Code Man was played by David Prowse, the man who is Darth Vader under the costume.

A mighty fellow indeed who probably would have been able to beat Wilt Chamberlain with six months training under Cus D'amato. :TU:

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 22 Jul 2016, 10:48
by Cutman Scabbers
Syntax Error wrote:
Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:I'm surprised someone on here has started a thread staing that Tufty The Squirrel or The Green Cross Code Man had a legitimate shot at beating Mike Tyson in 1987!

Are you referring to the gent at 2:30 of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjihwFWZI8
He is the one.

The real life Green Cross Code Man was played by David Prowse, the man who is Darth Vader under the costume.

A mighty fellow indeed who probably would have been able to beat Wilt Chamberlain with six months training under Cus D'amato. :TU:

No doubt!

However, the gent that appears at 2:30 of this video is NOT David Prowse.

Rather, it's someone who would have had a decent chance at beating both
Muhammad Ali AND Wilt Chamberlain!

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 22 Jul 2016, 11:20
by Syntax Error
Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:
Cutman Scabbers wrote:

Are you referring to the gent at 2:30 of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjihwFWZI8
He is the one.

The real life Green Cross Code Man was played by David Prowse, the man who is Darth Vader under the costume.

A mighty fellow indeed who probably would have been able to beat Wilt Chamberlain with six months training under Cus D'amato. :TU:

No doubt!

However, the gent that appears at 2:30 of this video is NOT David Prowse.

Rather, it's someone who would have had a decent chance at beating both
Muhammad Ali AND Wilt Chamberlain!
:lol: :lol:

I've just watched it all now.

I remember watching that as a child too. :TU:

Re: Bruce Lee vs Ali...

Posted: 22 Jul 2016, 15:26
by Stevieb8006
As a life long MA practitioner including jkd, Bruce Lee represents everything good and bad about the arts to me. Here is an argument I put forth on a website debating his greatness, I was simply playing devils advocate but its factual and got the fanboys riled. Sorry it's so long....


I would have liked to have seen how Bruce lee developed as a martial artist as he aged. When the reflexes had slowed and he couldn't fight like a young man anymore. Forget beasts like Duran, I'm not sure he could have competed with the martial artists of his day. I wonder if he'd have revised his opinion on traditional MA that dont rely so much on athleticism.

I've had countless debates about him with people. His history's been totally rewritten. His one 'fight' that's actually been documented was much more competitive than has been recorded. Here's a good article on what went down

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

Interesting that the one impartial observer says how it wasn't a one sided drubbing. If he won so handily, then why the need to a) completely re- evaluate a successful style b) close his schools down c) leave the city.

I also think he gets too much credit as a trainer. The fighters he took on were all established on the world scene anyway, he didn't train one from scratch. Fighters like joe Lewis got no end of grief for daring to suggest they might have had something to do with their own success.

Also, he wasn't the first man ever to cross train. They were all pretty much on the ball back then, particularly the Americans that had collegiate wrestling backgrounds and knew of its effectiveness. Bill wallace had a judo and wrestling background. Benny urquidez had a very mixed style, as did lewis.

He criticised traditional martial arts without ever actually learning a system to its completion which annoys me. Learn about your subject before gobbing off at least. When he returned for his fathers funeral, he refused to complete his wing chun training as yip man was too old and he wouldn't learn from a student he had previously been considered on a par with, that indicates a massive ego to me.

There are lots of stories about him being a bully as well, apparently he leathered his student taky kimura when he landed a punch on him in training. He met up with one teacher (William Chen) who would show him stuff, gain an advantageous combative position, only for Bruce to go ape poo and try to batter him when he released him from a hold or whatever. Eventually the teacher just realised it was pointless trying to show him anything.

In terms of being 'too fit' I totally agree there's such a thing. The stress of overtraining will catch up to the body. Lee trained through injuries and refused to break routine and let his body repair. I read an article about marijuana not being very good for people with a low percentage of body fat and how this habit may have lead to Bruce's demise. It was a convincing read.

Saying all that, I'm a massive fan. He opened the doors for westerners. And enter the dragons the most quotable film ever.

Some interesting quotes from Showdown in Oakland:

Bruce Lee’s friend, Michael Lai, said, “Bruce hated to lose. If he lost, he would have some excuse and never admitted that he had been beaten fairly. He had ‘nga tsat,’ which is to say he was very cheeky and strutted like a peac0ck. He always acted very superior.”

Lee's sihing, Wong Shun Leung, said, "Bruce Lee was a good fighter, but not as good as movies have portrayed him - almost invincible. People used to see Bruce Lee and have kung fu dreams. They wanted to do the same things he did and duplicate his methods. Unfortunately, it seems nobody wants to wake up."

In 2005 The Contra Costa Times interviewed Lee's friend, George Lee, who was at the fight:
"George offered a little more about the infamous battle that Bruce fought to keep the right to teach martial arts to non-Chinese. He was actually on the scene. As Linda was pregnant, Bruce told her to stay outside because he didn't know what could happen and George stayed outside with Linda."

That last one's interesting. Bill Chen, who was there, said someone kept peeking through the door that led to the back room of the studio. George Lee was supposed to be there to back Lee up should the situation escalate. If we are to assume that Linda stayed with George in the next room, then she couldn't have seen anything in detail since George was trying not to overtly make his presence known and was opening and closing the door slightly just to make sure everything was OK.