BoxRec

Kalan wrote:Maybe because they lost to Ralph Jones (who was coming off 5 straight losses)... Terry Norris... and a Welterweight coming off a 3-year layoff???

And because Toney won World Titles all the way up to Cruiserweight -- and Robinson, Hagler, and Leonard could never have done that???

Yes you are absolutely right. Similarly Adrian Broner is a better fighter than Henry Armstrong and Alexis Arguello, because they couldn't win a title in four divisions.

Kalan wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:

Kalan wrote:Toney was never beaten at Middleweight in the opinion of the judges... Everyone can have opinions, but only the judges' count. His fights with McCallum and Johnson were very close -- and he was behind when he KO'd Michael Nunn... Hagler never fought any natural Middleweight close to the ability of those 3 guys... McCallum, Nunn, and Jackson were Leonard's top 3 challengers and he flagrantly ducked them -- abandoning his title like Canyelo.

I disagree -- the judges don't always get it right.

They don't... I didn't say they did... but Toney was never beaten at Middleweight and had some really great performances in the Nunn and McCallum fights.. Those were tough guys to beat. Leonard obviously didn't want to any part of them, since he abandoned his title like Canelo, rather than face them

To be fair to Leonard, he did say before he fought Hagler that it was just one fight & whatever the outcome, he wasn't going to stick around at middleweight.

Right after he beat Hagler, he said something along the lines of, "see you in six months & fifteen pounds".

That was a clear reference to the fact that he was looking to move up to 175 to try at bag another world crown at another weight.

Luckily for him, the WBC gave him one out of their cornflake box in 1988 when he fought Lalonde at 168 for that title.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:

I disagree -- the judges don't always get it right.

They don't... I didn't say they did... but Toney was never beaten at Middleweight and had some really great performances in the Nunn and McCallum fights.. Those were tough guys to beat. Leonard obviously didn't want to any part of them, since he abandoned his title like Canelo, rather than face them

To be fair to Leonard, he did say before he fought Hagler that it was just one fight & whatever the outcome, he wasn't going to stick around at middleweight.

Right after he beat Hagler, he said something along the lines of, "see you in six months & fifteen pounds".

That was a clear reference to the fact that he was looking to move up to 175 to try at bag another world crown at another weight.

Luckily for him, the WBC gave him one out of their cornflake box in 1988 when he fought Lalonde at 168 for that title.

Leonard never said he WASN'T going to stick around at Middleweight... He had NO plans to fight at Light Heavyweight... Leonard never fought above 165... He NEVER said "See you in 6 months and 15 pounds" ... He sat on the Middleweight Title until his mandatories were named and then he abandoned his TItle Belt like Canelo.. He found another World Title by bribing the unknown Lalonde with millions to boil off 7 pounds.. Leonard never defended his so-called LHW Title.. Leonard took his "168-pound Title" and defended it at 160 against whoever he wanted to fight. Certainly not Michael Nunn, MIke McCallum, or James Toney -- who won the 160 Title shortly after Leonard ducked down to 154 to fight the chinny Norris.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Dave Tiberi had an easy time with him. I thought Reggie Johnson beat him. Great fighter, not a great Middleweight.

This. I had Reggie on points. The Tiberi result was a joke and the McCallum fight could have gone either way.

Where did Tiberi go???? ... Toney fought for another generation in 5 different divisions... Tiberi was 25 and faded into the woodwork... He never fought again

Kalan wrote:Where did Tiberi go???? ... Toney fought for another generation in 5 different divisions... Tiberi was 25 and faded into the woodwork... He never fought again

The agony of (unfair) defeat gave him the blues and he hung up the gloves.

Cry me a river... How much unfairness is their in Professional Boxing... Egad man.. No room for the soft hearted.

Kalan wrote:Where did Tiberi go???? ... Toney fought for another generation in 5 different divisions... Tiberi was 25 and faded into the woodwork... He never fought again

So what? He was still robbed in the Toney fight or did you actually score that fight for Toney?

Kalan wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:
They don't... I didn't say they did... but Toney was never beaten at Middleweight and had some really great performances in the Nunn and McCallum fights.. Those were tough guys to beat. Leonard obviously didn't want to any part of them, since he abandoned his title like Canelo, rather than face them

To be fair to Leonard, he did say before he fought Hagler that it was just one fight & whatever the outcome, he wasn't going to stick around at middleweight.

Right after he beat Hagler, he said something along the lines of, "see you in six months & fifteen pounds".

That was a clear reference to the fact that he was looking to move up to 175 to try at bag another world crown at another weight.

Luckily for him, the WBC gave him one out of their cornflake box in 1988 when he fought Lalonde at 168 for that title.

Leonard never said he WASN'T going to stick around at Middleweight... He had NO plans to fight at Light Heavyweight... Leonard never fought above 165... He NEVER said "See you in 6 months and 15 pounds" ... He sat on the Middleweight Title until his mandatories were named and then he abandoned his TItle Belt like Canelo.. He found another World Title by bribing the unknown Lalonde with millions to boil off 7 pounds.. Leonard never defended his so-called LHW Title.. Leonard took his "168-pound Title" and defended it at 160 against whoever he wanted to fight. Certainly not Michael Nunn, MIke McCallum, or James Toney -- who won the 160 Title shortly after Leonard ducked down to 154 to fight the chinny Norris.

I think you'll find that Leonard did say all those things.

Leonard never planned a career at MW & was only interested in fighting Hagler.

After he won, he was non commital about his future, but you could see later on that he was only interested in 'world' titles at different weights and/or box office fights.

Sticking around at 160 & fighting some admittedly top class mandatories was never in his plans.

Right... It was never in Ray Leonard's plans to get his ass beaten half to death.. He DID stick around at Middleweight by only to fight Duran and Hearns.. No way was he going to fight McCallum, Nunn, Toney, Johnson, or Jackson, so he dropped weight to fight Terry Norris.

Sugar Ray Leonard was the 2nd guy after Ali who was so big he could pick his own opponents, and he has a ton of followers... Ali nixed Holmes to fight Leon Spinks... Leonard Nixed McCallum and Nunn to fight Lalonde... Floyd cherry-picked Andre Berto and nixed Kell Brook and Keith Thurman... CanYellow nixed Gennady Golovkin to fight Amir Khan and Liam Smith at CanYellowweight... Wilder nixed Alexander Povetkin to fight Chris Arreola.

The WBC still hasn't said ANYTHING about how their "investigation" of Povetkin's PED tests went... He passed them all with flying colors but they said they had to investigate to make sure additional VADA tests were also going to pass... They all passed... Now WTF are they going to say???

Tell me more about how Toney destroys Hagler

Kalan wrote:Right... It was never in Ray Leonard's plans to get his ass beaten half to death.. He DID stick around at Middleweight by only to fight Duran and Hearns.. No way was he going to fight McCallum, Nunn, Toney, Johnson, or Jackson, so he dropped weight to fight Terry Norris.

Sugar Ray Leonard was the 2nd guy after Ali who was so big he could pick his own opponents, and he has a ton of followers... Ali nixed Holmes to fight Leon Spinks... Leonard Nixed McCallum and Nunn to fight Lalonde... Floyd cherry-picked Andre Berto and nixed Kell Brook and Keith Thurman... CanYellow nixed Gennady Golovkin to fight Amir Khan and Liam Smith at CanYellowweight... Wilder nixed Alexander Povetkin to fight Chris Arreola.

The WBC still hasn't said ANYTHING about how their "investigation" of Povetkin's PED tests went... He passed them all with flying colors but they said they had to investigate to make sure additional VADA tests were also going to pass... They all passed... Now WTF are they going to say???

Again, you can speculate all you want about Leonard's motives, but that's a side issue.

As I will reiterate, he openly said he did not plan a career at MW, he just wanted to fight Hagler.

Also, him dropping weight to fight Norris was about four years after he beat Hagler, so it was nothing to do with avoiding the likes of McCallum etc, it was just one of his 'Hollywood' fights &/or handpicked bouts that he indulged in after he came back against Hagler.

I don't see what Ali did & Mayweather Jr did has any relevance to this, apart from the fact that all three were the Golden Goose fighters of their particular eras & it is Golden Goose fighters who tend to do things like this.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:Right... It was never in Ray Leonard's plans to get his ass beaten half to death.. He DID stick around at Middleweight by only to fight Duran and Hearns.. No way was he going to fight McCallum, Nunn, Toney, Johnson, or Jackson, so he dropped weight to fight Terry Norris.

Sugar Ray Leonard was the 2nd guy after Ali who was so big he could pick his own opponents, and he has a ton of followers... Ali nixed Holmes to fight Leon Spinks... Leonard Nixed McCallum and Nunn to fight Lalonde... Floyd cherry-picked Andre Berto and nixed Kell Brook and Keith Thurman... CanYellow nixed Gennady Golovkin to fight Amir Khan and Liam Smith at CanYellowweight... Wilder nixed Alexander Povetkin to fight Chris Arreola.

The WBC still hasn't said ANYTHING about how their "investigation" of Povetkin's PED tests went... He passed them all with flying colors but they said they had to investigate to make sure additional VADA tests were also going to pass... They all passed... Now WTF are they going to say???

Again, you can speculate all you want about Leonard's motives, but that's a side issue.

As I will reiterate, he openly said he did not plan a career at MW, he just wanted to fight Hagler.

Also, him dropping weight to fight Norris was about four years after he beat Hagler, so it was nothing to do with avoiding the likes of McCallum etc, it was just one of his 'Hollywood' fights &/or handpicked bouts that he indulged in after he came back against Hagler.

I don't see what Ali did & Mayweather Jr did has any relevance to this, apart from the fact that all three were the Golden Goose fighters of their particular eras & it is Golden Goose fighters who tend to do things like this.

LOOK!!! Leonard's motives were as transparent as CanYellow's and Ali's.. I was disgusted by it, but nobody wanted to talk about it because Leonard was and is such a revered figure in Boxing.. Leonard didn't want to get knocked out so he abandoned his Middleweight Title Belt.. That's fine with me.. He's not breaking any rules there.. CanYellow isn't breaking any rules by giving his belt to Golovkin.. But once Leonard got another Title Belt---from the dehydrated and unknown Light Heavyweight Lalonde---he did exactly what he wanted to do with it.. Leonard kept avoiding the top Middleweights and fought Duran and Hearns at 160.. Now, how many orgs allow you to defend a Super Middleweight Title at 160??? ... You don't think money had anything to do with that????

Lenny wrote:Tell me more about how Toney destroys Hagler

Because Toney won titles all the way up to Cruiserweight and Hagler couldn't do that. This was said earlier, and it must be right.

There does seem to be some pushback regarding the greatness of weight "specialists" Like Monzon, Hagler...maybe Tzyu could be tossed into this discussion.

Fighters who made it there business to stay in a specific weight class. I'm not buyin it.....it does not deteriorate their pedigree one iota. And those that choose to move around should not be penalized either.

For the record Monzon was reported to have been rather dominant in his sparring events with his fellow countryman Galindez. So this may indicate potential if the wish would have arose.

This is correct... Staying at 1 weight shouldn't hurt you from a historical perspective... Joshua is a Heavyweight and he's not going to conquer 5 weight divisions... Monzon was one of the greatest Middleweights and he stayed there all his life.

For the most part boxers move up when they can no longer make the weight.. They outgrow their weight division.. Pacquiao moved up the most divisions of any boxer in History -- but I don't see that as making him the GOAT because his body grew more and faster than anyone else -- but probably he could still make 140 so I hand it to him for being able to compete at 147.. But he did avoid big punchers at 147 and 140.

I'm not so sure how much of James Toney's move up to higher weight divisions came from a lack of discipline regarding his eating habits... and how much actually came from his frame size getting bigger... He was undeniably fat at Cruiserweight and Heavyweight.

Kalan wrote:Hagler never fought any natural Middleweight close to the ability of those 3 guys... McCallum, Nunn, and Jackson were Leonard's top 3 challengers and he flagrantly ducked them -- abandoning his title like Canyelo.

We may have something in common after all.

Ive always seen the post Hagler-SRL shakeup as a very very interesting time full of talented fighters. A very strong diverse division during 87-91 wheras non MW's moving up I often felt the competition during Haglers reign 1980-97 was weak. Weak for sure. He beat better fighters on his way to the title.

For sure I feel Hagler would have knocked out Jackson. The peak champion Hagler would have shut out Nunn. Mccalllum of say 1987 had a real chance but would have lost a hard fight on points.

I don't see the Hagler who lost to Leonard beating McCallum by ANY stretch... McCallum was too great boxer-puncher, so when Leonard beat Hagler he obviously wasn't going to face Nunn or McCallum... Leonard abandoned the title and finagled a vacant title vs a dehydrated LaLonde that he defended at 160.

Judah Ben Fur wrote:I often felt the competition during Haglers reign was weak

I agree whole heartedly.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Dave Tiberi had an easy time with him. I thought Reggie Johnson beat him. Great fighter, not a great Middleweight.

Yeah he didn't look great in most of his middleweight efforts. I think it was just a bridge too far for him as far as weight cutting. He looked superb in his early Super Middleweight efforts.

Tiberi lost... Didn't demand a rematch and never fought again... Reggie Johnson lost - and never sought a rematch.

Toney was undefeated at Middleweight... It was his best weight by far... Victims: Mike McCallum.. Reggie Johnson.. Michael Nunn

If Toney has any discipline he could have maintained 160... But he didn't have any.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Switch hitter wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:
Yes Lewis did, he trashcanned the WBA belt rather than fight Ruiz and trashcanned the IBF rather than fight Byrd.

And lol, now you're bringing up Tua? How ignorant are you of the 90s? Bowe retired December 1996. Who exactly had boxed David Tua at that point? David Izon? You're clutching at straws. For the millionth time: Mercer would have got his shot had he not blown it v Ferguson. Lewis would have got his shot had he not blown it v McCall.

Tua stopped Ruiz in a round in '96......

John Ruiz wasn't a name in 1996 - I wrongly assumed this was obvious & we all knew this. Ruiz was a barely known Panix prospect who had lost to Dannel Nicholson. Bowe, Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield all had bigger fish to fry in 1996 than the winner of a fight between David Tua and John Ruiz.

Of the 4 big names only Lewis boxed Tua, and that was in the year 2000, and that was only because he was a mandatory, and Lewis twice delayed the fight in favour of easy defences.

Using Tua as an example of someone Bowe 'ducked', when no big name had boxed him by the time Bowe retired shows a critical lack of understanding of the 90s scene.

Maybe Kalan was a toddler in the 90s decade. We don't know.

When someone says that Anthony Joshua is the best heavyweight of all time is a waste of time debating someone like him.

Dave Tiberi kicked James "Lights Out" Toney's ass!

Mind you, Toney is one of my favorite boxers ever.

Fine... Everyone has an opinion.