BoxRec

There is a point where consensus needs to be obtained.

Post Tunney, Post Marciano, Post Lewis, requires some rationalizing. But I think your list is reasonable. No one has pointed out any serious inconsistencies have they?

And yes, just because you are linear or lineal, in some cases does not make you the best fighter.....but being champion/beltholder has never guaranted that either.

There are some eras where you can argue the best guys never got the shot. But minus having a prophet like Kalan tell us who is best in no uncertain terms, I guess the best way remaining is have them face each other. I think Wlad earned his place on that list. If by no other reason than time/attrition.

BitPlayer wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BitPlayer wrote: Who didn't he beat?

He lost to the same level he beat. Average to mediocre.

Is it not possible he got better?

Perhaps he found better steroids?

Hmm there's not a single non-boxer named in that list. That's not in the spirit of honoring diversity. How's about we put a bb player on that list? Wouldn't want to be exclusionary.

BitPlayer wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BitPlayer wrote: Who didn't he beat?

He lost to the same level he beat. Average to mediocre.

Is it not possible he got better?

It wouldn't make his opponents better.

Vitali Klitschko won the Lineal Heavyweight Title from Lewis in the eyes of many...

Klitschko was ahead on ALL SCORECARDS at the end of 6 rounds.. As can be seen on slo-mo video, an illegal thumb-strike opened the initial nick on Vitali's left eyelid very early in the 3rd round.. A holding and hitting head-butt, and a palm rake (also while holding and hitting) ripped that cut open wider a few seconds later...along with a 2nd cut on the same eyelid and another cut on the cheek... Vitali was never a bleeder and Lewis was not a cutting puncher... Lewis hit Mavrovic with hundreds of punches for 12 rounds and not a single nick -- but in 10 seconds he ripped open 3 big cuts on the left side of VK's face.

Since foul blows contributed to the cuts the result should have been---Klitschko Wins Unanimous Technical Decision 6... If you listen to the telecast from the British Commentators they said the fight would go to the scorecards because of the cuts.

Later Wladimir became the defacto Lineal Heavyweight Champion when Vitali quit the ring for 4 years to rehab his Kickboxing injured legs... Vitali originally said he was quitting Boxing for good... It was only when his legs started feeling much better that he decided to come back at 37.

Joshua is the best Heavyweight... As soon as he fights Fury he'll be the New Undefeated Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

I don't consider Briggs a champion. Foreman had been stripped of the title because he would not fight the top contenders. So Briggs did not beat the man who was still the champion. True, Foreman did not lose the title in the ring (until he fought Briggs), but so what.

virtually nobody ever considered Shannon Briggs the champion at the time.

Vitali really beat lennox
Basketballer player with no experience would beat ali
Hagler ducked people
Joshua is the best heavy of all time
Liston was unlucky to lose to ali

We know your views on these - got anything else to add Mr K? Instead of repeating.

Kalan wrote:Vitali Klitschko won the Lineal Heavyweight Title from Lewis in the eyes of many...

Klitschko was ahead on ALL SCORECARDS at the end of 6 rounds.. As can be seen on slo-mo video, an illegal thumb-strike opened the initial nick on Vitali's left eyelid very early in the 3rd round.. A holding and hitting head-butt, and a palm rake (also while holding and hitting) ripped that cut open wider a few seconds later...along with a 2nd cut on the same eyelid and another cut on the cheek... Vitali was never a bleeder and Lewis was not a cutting puncher... Lewis hit Mavrovic with hundreds of punches for 12 rounds and not a single nick -- but in 10 seconds he ripped open 3 big cuts on the left side of VK's face.

Since foul blows contributed to the cuts the result should have been---Klitschko Wins Unanimous Technical Decision 6... If you listen to the telecast from the British Commentators they said the fight would go to the scorecards because of the cuts.

Later Wladimir became the defacto Lineal Heavyweight Champion when Vitali quit the ring for 4 years to rehab his Kickboxing injured legs... Vitali originally said he was quitting Boxing for good... It was only when his legs started feeling much better that he decided to come back at 37.

Joshua is the best Heavyweight... As soon as he fights Fury he'll be the New Undefeated Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

BoxBuzz wrote:But it's hard to justify that you are a champ, if you haven't beaten a champ.

100% agreed Buzz.

And I would also add that the fascination which surrounds the mythical P4P top 10 list also has much to answer for.

P4P lists can be fun & certainly can spark interesting discussions in the pub, but they should NEVER be taken seriously.

It wasn't that long ago that Floyd Mayweather & Wladimir Klitchsko were the top two. Yet, there id sbsolutely 0% chance of that fight happening, so what's the point.

The Ring magazine started hyping up this whole P4P thing back in the lates '80s. And since then boxers careers have becone dilutef.

These days a good boxer can become a 2 weight World Champion, fighting for vacant titles. There are 3 weight World Champions who cannot honestly say that they were The Number One of any division, at any time.

People looking back at the careers of Sugar Ray Robinson & Henry Armstrong - and wanting to emulate them by chasing & winning World Titles.

And yet, so often the most important thing is thst which is forgotten... SRR & Hank fought & beat THE BEST opposition of their day, because there was only 1 World Champion.

Fighters can be very successful & make a lot of money without truly testing themselves against THE BEST.

And I think that's the greatest shame of all.

cfang wrote:Vitali really beat lennox
Basketballer player with no experience would beat ali
Hagler ducked people
Joshua is the best heavy of all time
Liston was unlucky to lose to ali

We know your views on these - got anything else to add Mr K? Instead of repeating.

Kalan wrote:Vitali Klitschko won the Lineal Heavyweight Title from Lewis in the eyes of many...

Klitschko was ahead on ALL SCORECARDS at the end of 6 rounds.. As can be seen on slo-mo video, an illegal thumb-strike opened the initial nick on Vitali's left eyelid very early in the 3rd round.. A holding and hitting head-butt, and a palm rake (also while holding and hitting) ripped that cut open wider a few seconds later...along with a 2nd cut on the same eyelid and another cut on the cheek... Vitali was never a bleeder and Lewis was not a cutting puncher... Lewis hit Mavrovic with hundreds of punches for 12 rounds and not a single nick -- but in 10 seconds he ripped open 3 big cuts on the left side of VK's face.

Since foul blows contributed to the cuts the result should have been---Klitschko Wins Unanimous Technical Decision 6... If you listen to the telecast from the British Commentators they said the fight would go to the scorecards because of the cuts.

Later Wladimir became the defacto Lineal Heavyweight Champion when Vitali quit the ring for 4 years to rehab his Kickboxing injured legs... Vitali originally said he was quitting Boxing for good... It was only when his legs started feeling much better that he decided to come back at 37.

Joshua is the best Heavyweight... As soon as he fights Fury he'll be the New Undefeated Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

You missed out another of his theories:
Earnie Shavers can't punch
Oliver McCall is a much harder puncher than Earnie Shavers

(His response to my question "in that case how come Earnie Shavers levelled a prime Larry Holmes and Oliver McCall couldn't even hurt a 45 year old Larry Holmes?" is a classic of bad comedy)

Ambling Alp II wrote:I don't consider Briggs a champion. Foreman had been stripped of the title because he would not fight the top contenders. So Briggs did not beat the man who was still the champion. True, Foreman did not lose the title in the ring (until he fought Briggs), but so what.
virtually nobody ever considered Shannon Briggs the champion at the time.

You may not consider Briggs a champion but he was the lineal champion nevertheless.
Regardless of ABC belts, a lineal champion is the man whoi beat the man.
Therefore Foreman was the lineal champion until he (contoversially) lost to Shannon Briggs.
A lineal champion remains so until he gets beaten, retires or dies.

Christ, I thought we'd got past the stage of people flat out denying Wlad's position as the lineal champion pre-Fury.

Which fight did Wlad secure that title with? Definitively? He was certainly there, opinions vary as to when. That's why in modern Boxing a lineal title may as well come in a cereal box.

Vitali winning it when Lennox beat the dogshit out of him is classic, even for a window licking retard like Kalan.

SteveO wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I don't consider Briggs a champion. Foreman had been stripped of the title because he would not fight the top contenders. So Briggs did not beat the man who was still the champion. True, Foreman did not lose the title in the ring (until he fought Briggs), but so what.
virtually nobody ever considered Shannon Briggs the champion at the time.

You may not consider Briggs a champion but he was the lineal champion nevertheless.
Regardless of ABC belts, a lineal champion is the man whoi beat the man.
Therefore Foreman was the lineal champion until he (contoversially) lost to Shannon Briggs.
A lineal champion remains so until he gets beaten, retires or dies.

Then why is Larry Holmes considered the lineal champion after beating Ken Norton? Leon Spinks had not yet got beaten, retired or died.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

cfang wrote:Vitali really beat lennox
Basketballer player with no experience would beat ali
Hagler ducked people
Joshua is the best heavy of all time
Liston was unlucky to lose to ali

We know your views on these - got anything else to add Mr K? Instead of repeating.

Kalan wrote:Vitali Klitschko won the Lineal Heavyweight Title from Lewis in the eyes of many...

Klitschko was ahead on ALL SCORECARDS at the end of 6 rounds.. As can be seen on slo-mo video, an illegal thumb-strike opened the initial nick on Vitali's left eyelid very early in the 3rd round.. A holding and hitting head-butt, and a palm rake (also while holding and hitting) ripped that cut open wider a few seconds later...along with a 2nd cut on the same eyelid and another cut on the cheek... Vitali was never a bleeder and Lewis was not a cutting puncher... Lewis hit Mavrovic with hundreds of punches for 12 rounds and not a single nick -- but in 10 seconds he ripped open 3 big cuts on the left side of VK's face.

Since foul blows contributed to the cuts the result should have been---Klitschko Wins Unanimous Technical Decision 6... If you listen to the telecast from the British Commentators they said the fight would go to the scorecards because of the cuts.

Later Wladimir became the defacto Lineal Heavyweight Champion when Vitali quit the ring for 4 years to rehab his Kickboxing injured legs... Vitali originally said he was quitting Boxing for good... It was only when his legs started feeling much better that he decided to come back at 37.

Joshua is the best Heavyweight... As soon as he fights Fury he'll be the New Undefeated Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

You missed out another of his theories:
Earnie Shavers can't punch
Oliver McCall is a much harder puncher than Earnie Shavers

(His response to my question "in that case how come Earnie Shavers levelled a prime Larry Holmes and Oliver McCall couldn't even hurt a 45 year old Larry Holmes?" is a classic of bad comedy)

Obviously Shavers didn't catch Holmes with ANY hard punches in their 1st fight.... And Holmes quickly recovered from the only big hit he got in the rematch... McCall didn't NEED to knock Holmes out... He was winning the fight. Shavers NEEDED do KO Holmes, and he COULDN'T!!! ... WHEN did Mike Tyson ever level 2 HUGE Heavyweight Champions such as Lennox Lewis and Henry Akinwande with ONE (1) shot each???? McCall DID that.. Tyson couldn't faze Lewis with his best shots -- McCall put LL out.

You're trying to sell me on Shavers being the GOAT puncher off 2 losing efforts to Holmes????

I'd just like to point out that Wlad became the Lineal Champion when he beat Ruslan Chagaev. Haye was just another contender when Wlad beat him. It was a significant opponent for Wlad, probably his most significant, but he was already the Lineal Champion prior to beating Haye.

Did Chagaev have his own title at the time? I thought Ibragimov was the one, I can remember being disgusted watching it as Wlad pawed and slapped with his left and was berated by Manny Steward. It was made worse as the commentary and build up was all about unification etc etc. All in all a crap time for heavyweight boxing.

Tomasino wrote:Did Chagaev have his own title at the time? I thought Ibragimov was the one, I can remember being disgusted watching it as Wlad pawed and slapped with his left and was berated by Manny Steward. It was made worse as the commentary and build up was all about unification etc etc. All in all a crap time for heavyweight boxing.

Ibragimov had the WBO Title I believe when Wlad beat him so yes he did gain a belt there. Chagaev I believe was the WBA Champion at the time, and was ranked #3 behind only Wlad and Vitali as I recall, and therefore the fight between he and Wlad was considered by Ring Magazine as being for the Lineal Championship.

That's about the point that everyone else started acknowledging Wladimir as THE Champ at Heavyweight.

gilgamesh wrote:

Tomasino wrote:Did Chagaev have his own title at the time? I thought Ibragimov was the one, I can remember being disgusted watching it as Wlad pawed and slapped with his left and was berated by Manny Steward. It was made worse as the commentary and build up was all about unification etc etc. All in all a crap time for heavyweight boxing.

Ibragimov had the WBO Title I believe when Wlad beat him so yes he did gain a belt there. Chagaev I believe was the WBA Champion at the time, and was ranked #3 behind only Wlad and Vitali as I recall, and therefore the fight between he and Wlad was considered by Ring Magazine as being for the Lineal Championship.

That's about the point that everyone else started acknowledging Wladimir as THE Champ at Heavyweight.

Chag had been stripped of his WBA title for his spooky health issues.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Vitali winning it when Lennox beat the dogshit out of him is classic, even for a window licking retard like Kalan.

I can't believe the bullshit that Kalan posts.
Sad thing is I think he believes he is not a troll

- Chag was stripped of his super WBA title after Waldo ktfo out of him.

Wlad scheduled to face haye who had feminine issues and backed out and chag bout with valuev killed by king, so they salvaged the expense of their training camps by fighting each other.

That's ok, we understand you have dim memory yet manfully do your best to contribute, so carry on. At least you try more than the resident lard bucket.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

SteveO wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I don't consider Briggs a champion. Foreman had been stripped of the title because he would not fight the top contenders. So Briggs did not beat the man who was still the champion. True, Foreman did not lose the title in the ring (until he fought Briggs), but so what.
virtually nobody ever considered Shannon Briggs the champion at the time.

You may not consider Briggs a champion but he was the lineal champion nevertheless.
Regardless of ABC belts, a lineal champion is the man whoi beat the man.
Therefore Foreman was the lineal champion until he (contoversially) lost to Shannon Briggs.
A lineal champion remains so until he gets beaten, retires or dies.

Then why is Larry Holmes considered the lineal champion after beating Ken Norton? Leon Spinks had not yet got beaten, retired or died.

I disagree with the OP's list at the Holmes stage. Ring (FWIW) recognized Holmes as champion after Weaver beat Tate in March 1980, by virtue of Holmes' defeat of Weaver 9 months prior. Holmes cemented it by beating a comebacking Ali in October 1980. Holmes' lineal status begins in 1980. Whether it's in March or October is a matter of opinion.

I did personally recognize Briggs as World Champion back in '97. It was a frustrating time. Foreman was a horrible champion and organizational belts were being awarded and taken away like... I dunno, baseball cards or something. True, most people didn't recognize Briggs as champ, which I attributed to the general public not knowing any better. I give a ton of credit to Lennox Lewis for seeking out a Briggs fight and bringing the lineal (and true, IMO) World Heavyweight Championship back to capable hands.

Klitschko is 40 years old... Was Ali expected to beat Holmes at 38???? NO he wasn't.

Wladimir shut Byrd out twice, making him look terribly inept... WK is the only fighter who ever knocked out Eddie Chambers... David Haye has a combination of speed, power, and skills equal or better than almost anyone in the past -- but he was routed by Wladimir... Alexander Povetkin is an Olympic Gold Medal winner who's beaten many top Heavyweights... HIs only loss was to Klitschko - losing every round while getting knocked down 4 times.. Ibragimov went unbeaten in his career expect for losing to Klitschko.

Klitschko has fought more southpaws than any other Heavyweight Champion in History... He fought more challengers who were undefeated in 19 or more fights (9) than any other Heavyweight Champion in History... And he has more successful Heavyweight Title defenses than any previous Heavyweight Champion except Louis.. Haters are going to hate.. He's damned accomplished and still has all his marbles after 68 pro fights and almost 200 amateur fights.

I wont consider Floyd Patterson for failing to defend the title against Sonny Liston in 1960. And defending the championship against mediocre opposition avoiding Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez, and Liston destroyed him in 1962 in 1 round

Ambling Alp II wrote:

SteveO wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I don't consider Briggs a champion. Foreman had been stripped of the title because he would not fight the top contenders. So Briggs did not beat the man who was still the champion. True, Foreman did not lose the title in the ring (until he fought Briggs), but so what.
virtually nobody ever considered Shannon Briggs the champion at the time.

You may not consider Briggs a champion but he was the lineal champion nevertheless.
Regardless of ABC belts, a lineal champion is the man whoi beat the man.
Therefore Foreman was the lineal champion until he (contoversially) lost to Shannon Briggs.
A lineal champion remains so until he gets beaten, retires or dies.

Then why is Larry Holmes considered the lineal champion after beating Ken Norton? Leon Spinks had not yet got beaten, retired or died.

When a lineal champion retires, a new lineage is created when the #1 and #2 boxers fight each other.
Holmes became the lineal champion when he beat the #2 rated Mike Weaver - not when he beat Norton. Ali was still the linear champion at the time of the Holmes v Norton contest.
Just to clear up any confusion, Holmes beat the former lineal champion (Ali) a couple of contests later anyway.